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I thought I had a J-35


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What make and size of strings would be best to put on this guitar, to make it sound as good as it was made to? It has a rich and thick tone that is fairly loud, but I would like to change the strings to see if there is a big difference. It has been years since the old girl has had new strings.

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Willi Henkes, with the help of Andre Duchossoir, was kind enough to track down my guitar in the Gibson ledger book. This guitar was one of the 2 Trojans listed on November 25, 1936 shipped to the Hudson Bay Co. which is where my mom had her first job and bought the Trojan guitar and "118" soft shell case. I am thrilled to see the history of this beautiful guitar right back to the day it was shipped along with the only other Trojan out of the U.S.A.. Wow, this guitar is just getting more and more interesting. I wonder if the other one is still around.??

 

Thanks again, Willi!

post-60091-097665800 1382563208_thumb.jpg

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What a great thread! I (probably foolishly) passed up a Trojan a few years back at a guitar show in PA mostly because as it was on the heels of my SJ-200 purchase. It too was in very nice condition in what the seller was the original case. What made me think of it recently as I was shopping for a new J-45 and the J-35 came onto radar that a local shop has. And then to see this thread really ties it in! The info here about the Trojan is very interesting indeed, especially the ledgers. Thanks for sharing the knowledge and images Willi.

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Willi Henkes, with the help of Andre Duchossoir, was kind enough to track down my guitar in the Gibson ledger book. This guitar was one of the 2 Trojans listed on November 25, 1936 shipped to the Hudson Bay Co. which is where my mom had her first job and bought the Trojan guitar and "118" soft shell case. I am thrilled to see the history of this beautiful guitar right back to the day it was shipped along with the only other Trojan out of the U.S.A.. Wow, this guitar is just getting more and more interesting. I wonder if the other one is still around.??

 

Thanks again, Willi!

 

The confirmation I was waiting on. That's great!

 

So, this is the second confirmed Trojan (after Tom's)?

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The confirmation I was waiting on. That's great!

 

So, this is the second confirmed Trojan (after Tom's)?

 

No, it only means a couple of Trojans were shipped to where this one was bought -- probably right, but no fon in the shipping record. The case is even stronger because of the made in the usa label --the guitar went to Canada.

 

To me this guitar is shocking because of the bracing -- I have never seen anything like that from anything like that period.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

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At the time this guitar was built Gibson was trying to make the transition from the Jumbo and Advance Jumbo models to something more affordable, so I'm sure they tried various setups before they settled on what was to become known as the J-35...the "Trojan" period. I have been told by Gibson historians that the bracing used in this guitar more closely resembles the Advance Jumbo than either other Trojans or period J-35 models. The other "oddity" is the ebony nut, which was pretty common in guitars of that era.

 

As far as the rest of the guitar goes, it has all the ear markings of the Trojan...period. The open Grover strip tuning pegs, French heel and "V" neck, 3 3/4 " sound hole, no back binding etc.. As far as the fon goes, somebody dropped the ball there...maybe a Friday afternoon, on the way to the party...or Monday morning following it! Custom order? Prototype? Who knows?

 

As I have said, my mom bought this guitar at the Hudson Bay Co. dept. store where she worked when she was 16 years old. Her 16th birthday was Jan. 6, 1937 and the only 2 Trojans in the Gibson ledgers that were shipped outside of the USA were shipped on November 25, 1936 to the Hudson Bay Co. It doesn't take Sherlock to connect the dots here.

 

Willi Henkes is one of the most knowledgeable and respected vintage guitar guys anywhere.

If Willi says this is a Trojan...

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Willi Henkes is one of the most knowledgeable and respected vintage guitar guys anywhere.

If Willi says this is a Trojan...

 

 

If Gibson had kept more detailed records life would be a lot easier. I will always be thankful to the bunch of guys over at UMGF (and my repair guy) who figured my oddball Banner J-50 out. It went from being a guitar I thought just had the worst looking mismatched halves of top wood of any Gibson ever being made to a story of the halves of the book matched pieces being put together wrong and a burst being applied to cover up the screw up. It just endears the guitar to me that much more.

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I love your guitar and the story that goes with it -- for so many reasons! What a wonderful find!!

 

For a few fateful reasons, I have more interest than most.

 

My special interest in Trojans started in maybe 2006. I had just retired, and I was watching the Canadian version of Antiques Road Show in Nova Scotia, and a guy was evaluating an old J-35. He said it was very old, and and "it might even be a Trojan." Well, I had never heard of a Trojan -- but we did have an old J-35, one that had been local to Atlanta since the 1930s.

 

Well I found Lynn Wheelright article, and read it. It was a fascinating detective story but it ultimately caused massive burst of confusion that continues somewhat until today. What Lynn had found was essentially that "Trojan" was the internal working name for what eventually became the Jumbo35, and then the J-35. He found the name 39 times in the shipping ledger. He found only one -- 960-12 - that included the actual guitar number.

 

What was obvious to me -- and Lynn too actually -- was that this did mean they had built 39 unique guitars called Trojans (which was believed by a scarey number of guitar people) and it did not mean the Trojan was somehow different from the early class of Jumbo 35s. Now the J-35 did evolve to new specs, but it was never clear how many similar "Trojan" spec guitars were built. Well "Trojans" begin to pop of everywhere for what should have been an obvious reasons -- there were a lot of them. But the shipping ledgers in no way show the totality of the guitars in and out of Gibson and it certain did not show what the name evolution meant -- so there are always a lot more than shown in the ledger.

 

Well Lynn had said Trojans had no taper -- more like the Jumbo. Well that did not make sense either because Jumbos do have a taper -- just not much. So when I came home from Canada I measured ours, and it did not have a taper -- so in my mind, that was that.

 

Now the first fateful part -- it turns our guitar had a misread number recorded in our spread sheet. Some years later I was taking some pictures inside our J-35, and I noticed I had misread the number, and it was actually 960. I got very excited, because I remembered that FON, but I had to reread Lynn's article to discover that I actually had 960-12. Notice that reading by reading the hype, I had "proved" this was not a Trojan -- actually it is the only totally documented Trojan. This is a object lesson you should note I think.

 

As I have said, my mom bought this guitar at the Hudson Bay Co. dept. store where she worked when she was 16 years old. Her 16th birthday was Jan. 6, 1937 and the only 2 Trojans in the Gibson ledgers that were shipped outside of the USA were shipped on November 25, 1936 to the Hudson Bay Co. It doesn't take Sherlock to connect the dots here
.

 

I totally think you are right! -- but you need to be very careful when reasoning about guitars on partial knowledge. For example the "only 2 Trojans in the Gibson ledgers shipped outside of the USA" does in no way mean that there were not more -- because a lot more instruments were made than those shown in the ledger. This is the kind of error that has led to much noise and confusion in the past. But when you add the shipping destination, you have a really strong case I think.

 

I have been told by Gibson historians that the bracing used in this guitar more closely resembles the Advance Jumbo than either other Trojans or period J-35 models

 

Now part B of my fateful story. Fast forward to 2007 and we have finally decided to buy an Advance Jumbo from Gruhn -- a 1936 that was also an export guitar, in this case to South Africa. Well I bought it after talking to Walter Carter, and I was delighted when it got here -- a truly spectacular guitar and a true competitor for our 1935 D-28. But when I looked inside, I found a shocking situation -- it had three tone bars! I called Walter and ask why he had not mentioned this -- he said "what? AJs have two tone bars!" He asked if I wanted to send it back, but I am a sound guy and it was everything I wanted!

 

Here they are together

 

ajtrojan.jpg

 

Trojan

 

j35inside.jpg

 

 

j35ograms.jpg

 

Advanced Jumbo

 

AJinside1.jpg

 

ajograms.jpg

For all the guys who wanted to hear what this beautiful guitar sounds like ....I finally got someone who can play...and who was nice enough to let me video him playing my guitar at a local music store...hearken to...

 

 

It is indeed a spectacular sounding guitar!!! I would have expected nothing less!

 

It is hard to compare guitars -- or judge them -- from posted videos of course. To my ears, it seem be a bit less raw and more refined in sound than the Trojans I have played. In any case, that is what I would expect from the guitars bracing. You probably can't tell much from this, but here a recording of 960-12 from about four years ago.

 

I think involving this guitar in the gobble-fest that is the Trojan definition mess is doing it a disservice. I think you have the 2nd stongest case ever that it left the factory under the Trojan name -- second only to 910-12. But to have that simplistic fact somehow define your guitar would miss the point. Because of the bracing -- the heart of a guitars sound -- what you have is incredible rare and unique. Every time I think Gibsons from the 30s can no longer shock me, something like this happens. There are a lot of 3 unscalloped tone bar "Trojans-like" things -- I have never seen anything like your guitar from that period. That is what makes it special.

 

I have a conspiracy theory for you[rolleyes]. The AJ above was built at the same time as your guitar -- maybe someone switched[thumbup] the tops.

 

We spend summers now on the south shore of Nova Scotia in our old family home. Do you ever come east in the summer? We do bring guitars north with us sometimes, and we could bring the Trojan and AJ if there is a chance they could meet your guitar. It would be such a kick to hear them face to face.

 

The combination of historical import and family history is a rare thing. You are very lucky.

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

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ajtrojan.jpg

 

 

I think you have the 2nd stongest case ever that it left the factory under the Trojan name -- second only to 910-12.

 

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

 

I'm a bit confused. Did you mean 960-12?

 

And could you move those guitars a little further away from the fireplace? It makes me nervous.

 

This is a fascinating story. I think I can hear jt's typewriter starting up.

 

FMA

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I'm a bit confused. Did you mean 960-12?

 

And could you move those guitars a little further away from the fireplace? It makes me nervous.

 

 

Yea, it is a typo -- I am going back to fix it. Thanks.

 

Worry not -- the fireplace has not been lit in at least 20 years.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

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How did you get those glowing photos from the inside? And is that a bass side crack on the AJ?

 

FMA

 

No side cracks on the AJ.

 

Those were popular on UMGF for awhile -- sort of a poor mans x-ray. You just put a light inside, block the sound hole, and do a time exposure in the dark. They are called Henkograms, after their inventor.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

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No side cracks on the AJ.

 

Those were popular on UMGF for awhile -- sort of a poor mans x-ray. You just put a light inside, block the sound hole, and do a time exposure in the dark. They are called Henkograms, after their inventor.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

 

I congratulate you, Sir, on your incredible collection of guitars.

 

FMA

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Thanks Tom,

 

I am both lucky and grateful to have this beautiful guitar. As you said, most very knowledgeable guitar guys have said this guitar, because it's bracing is different from other Trojans and period J-35 models. It may be a custom order or possibly a prototype setup they were trying out during their transition from the more expensive Advance Jumbo model(congrats on that one by the way!)to the more moderately priced J-35 model.

 

As I said here, I grew up around this guitar and know it's history both first hand as well as by what my mom told me about it over the years.

 

Being young and stupid but meaning well...for her birthday one year, when I was probably in my late teens, I took the guitar to a guy I knew who built and repaired guitars and tried to talk him into refinishing it... as a birthday surprise!! I am so glad he had the brains to tell me it was not a good idea and to give her something else! Can you imagine it?!!

 

Oh well, to me, as well as others...this guitar is special, all of a Trojan and then some...that I darn near managed to destroy!lol!

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That just reminded me...I bought her a hard shell case for her birthday instead. The original Gibson "118" case that it came in was made of that cheap "pressed paper" kind of cardboard with the fake alligator pattern on it and it was literally falling apart. It was sort of like keeping your Ferrari in a large shoebox!

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Thanks Tom,

 

I am both lucky and grateful to have this beautiful guitar. As you said, most very knowledgeable guitar guys have said this guitar, because it's bracing is different from other Trojans and period J-35 models. It may be a custom order or possibly a prototype setup they were trying out during their transition from the more expensive Advance Jumbo model(congrats on that one by the way!)to the more moderately priced J-35 model.

 

As I said here, I grew up around this guitar and know it's history both first hand as well as by what my mom told me about it over the years.

 

Being young and stupid but meaning well...for her birthday one year, when I was probably in my late teens, I took the guitar to a guy I knew who built and repaired guitars and tried to talk him into refinishing it... as a birthday surprise!! I am so glad he had the brains to tell me it was not a good idea and to give her something else! Can you imagine it?!!

 

Oh well, to me, as well as others...this guitar is special, all of a Trojan and then some...that I darn near managed to destroy!lol!

 

Wow a near thing! This story gets better and better.

 

BTW, I should point out that the AJ and the Trojan came out at the same time -- late 1936. Together, they replaced the short lived Jumbo (1934-1936). The AJ was RW -- many say to keep up with Martin. Most Trojans are exact copies of the Jumbos except for cosmetics -- they basically dumbed down the Jumbo and cut the price. Here is a picture of our Trojan with our 1935 Jumbo (The Trojan is in much better original condition) -- they are pretty much identical except for cosmetics.

 

jumboj35.jpg

 

Your guitar's differences to me are so exciting because as far as I know, this is a new page in Gibson history. You have made my day.

 

Thanks so much for sharing.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

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I want to say thanks to all of the wonderful, incredibly knowledgeable and passionate vintage guitar people like Willi Henkes, André Duchossoir, Robert Corwin and John Shults just to name a few. These people were so gracious in the way they willingly and without hesitation, took the time to look at the information and photos I gave them of my guitar and gave me a very good idea of what this guitar actually is. There are still a few things about the guitar that are unique, such as the scalloped bracing, ebony nut and number dilemma, but for me, they make it that much more special. It could be a prototype that accidentally got shipped to fill an order...who knows? It was called a Trojan in the ledgers...it should have been called "Special Unique Trojan"...but I won't be sending them any hate mail! lol! Thanks to Tom for his educational input and to everyone else who took an interest and contributed to this thread. Cheers, Dave

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