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Do metal pickup rings have an effect?


Rabs

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So I thought id see what you guys reckon on this..

 

I recently got a pair of humbucker surround rings for one of my builds and until they turned up I didn't realise that they were made from metal.

 

And it got me wondering... Does using metal pickup rings effect the pups output?

 

I mean obviously you have Telecasters of which some have those metal bridge/pickup ring combo things so its not like its not used.. In fact one place I read that this is some of where the Tele gets its twang from, having metal around the pickup (even though im a bit dubious of that).

 

So has anyone ever tried both a metal and plastic ring on the same guitar and pickup? Does it make any difference?

 

Logically they way I think of it (not that I know that much about it) is that if pickups work on having a magnetic field emanating from them, then you put a metal ring around that surely it will have an effect on that field? (as they are quite thick bits of metal).

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In fact any metal surrounding magnetic pickups will work as a shorted coil and eat up some pickup resonance. In case the material is ferromagnetic like the sheet metal Telecaster bridge plates, they will spread the magnetic field a bit, too.

 

Those who want to minimize the shorted coil effect can do this by sawing a slot into the plate or the pickup ring, cut a trace out of aluminum foil on Stratocaster pickguard bottom surfaces etc. However, I think the effect is not a large one. I own one guitar with metal plated pickup rings and left them alone up to now - the stock Seymour Duncan pickups sound pretty nice. I also did nothing to the aluminum foils on Stratocaster pickguard bottoms or Telecaster bridge plates. The latter are brazen in my cases but rather thick, so they should have an effect, but it doesn't annoy me anyhow, and the pickup resonances are quite significant though.

 

So in case you like metal pickup rings, I think you may go with them without seriously sacrificing tone. [thumbup]

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In fact any metal surrounding magnetic pickups will work as a shorted coil and eat up some pickup resonance. In case the material is ferromagnetic like the sheet metal Telecaster bridge plates, they will spread the magnetic field a bit, too.

 

Those who want to minimize the shorted coil effect can do this by sawing a slot into the plate or the pickup ring, cut a trace out of aluminum foil on Stratocaster pickguard bottom surfaces etc. However, I think the effect is not a large one. I own one guitar with metal plated pickup rings and left them alone up to now - the stock Seymour Duncan pickups sound pretty nice. I also did nothing to the aluminum foils on Stratocaster pickguard bottoms or Telecaster bridge plates. The latter are brazen in my cases but rather thick, so they should have an effect, but it doesn't annoy me anyhow, and the pickup resonances are quite significant though.

 

So in case you like metal pickup rings, I think you may go with them without seriously sacrificing tone. [thumbup]

These are real clunkers.. like a standard LP pickup ring set with a thick one at the bridge and thinner one at the neck (but flat bottomed).. And that's what got me wondering as theres some real weight to them...

 

Maybe I will just have to try both when im at that stage and see if I can tell any difference.

 

Mind you in saying all of that I should probably first check that they are actually made from a magnetic material (cos if not then it wont matter anyway :))

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These are real clunkers.. like a standard LP pickup ring set with a thick one at the bridge and thinner one at the neck (but flat bottomed).. And that's what got me wondering as theres some real weight to them...

 

Maybe I will just have to try both when im at that stage and see if I can tell any difference.

 

Mind you in saying all of that I should probably first check that they are actually made from a magnetic material (cos if not then it wont matter anyway :))

Well, they might be nickel plated, but a plating is not such a big deal, or pickup covers would do much more to the tone. I also guess that three-magnet pickups like e. g. Gibson 500T or Dirty Fingers would be affected a little more by a magnetically susceptible or electrically conductive pickup ring, but I just could speculate how much it would be audible in the end.

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Well, they might be nickel plated, but a plating is not such a big deal, or pickup covers would do much more to the tone. I also guess that three-magnet pickups like e. g. Gibson 500T or Dirty Fingers would be affected a little more by a magnetically susceptible or electrically conductive pickup ring, but I just could speculate how much it would be audible in the end.

Yeah I had a feeling it would be another one of those things that does make some difference, but not enough to be worth worrying about..

 

Cheers. :)

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I have that set on this one

 

Nice... I just checked the place I bought them from and it says they are coated steel... and they look like this

 

41hhTmyd6gL_zps94432a3f.jpg

 

I take it you didn't do any mods to yours (like cut the circuit as mentioned above)?

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Coated steel - wouldn't have expected that. If I should guess, I would assume they will slightly boost bass and treble while attenuating the midrange a bit.

 

However, I wouldn't cut a slot into them since the magnetic effect will be larger than the electrical one, and only the latter would be affected by interrupting the parasitic coil.

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Coated steel - wouldn't have expected that. If I should guess, I would assume they will slightly boost bass and treble while attenuating the midrange a bit.

 

However, I wouldn't cut a slot into them since the magnetic effect will be larger than the electrical one, and only the latter would be affected by interrupting the parasitic coil.

Lol... ok cheers, I will have to take your word on that :)

 

And I guess I will just have to try it out really wont I :) Maybe if theres any significant difference I will post some sound samples or something

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There used to be a guitar player, Danny Gatton.

 

There used to be a pickup maker Joe Barden that made the pickups Danny used after he used very early Seymour Duncans.

 

There used to be another guy, Jay Monterose. He made guitar parts, tele parts to be specific. He lived down there in Maryland and convinced Danny he needed to use this guys parts. He said that he handmade stainless bridge plates for teles, which he did. They were very nice parts he made. He claimed that using ferrous(magnetic) metals around pickups was very bad and caused what we call microphonics, or, really bad feedback, but that if you used his stainless bridge and saddles you would eliminate eddie currents around the pickups, eliminiating microphonics. That was his schtick back then, he moved on to make guitars, and then I believe he moved on to bankruptcy for hosing too many customers. I do not think he is in business any more.

 

Microphonic pickups are pickups that are vibrating really badly, uncontrollably. It is caused by air movement around the pickups through the coils, only a little is all you need, because they then start their own actual feedback loop of vibration, and you cant control it. Unpotted pickups are usually microphonic at some point on the volume knob.

 

When I had Barden make me pickups for...four telecasters in the late 90's, we talked about the composition of the good old tele bridge plate, as guitar geezers like to do. Since Jay would always have a Barden right there inside his famous and very expensive bridges, I figured Joe would be all about 'splainin to me the deal. "Bulls hit". That was it, that was all he would say about it, he said if you bought four you wasted your money, the pickup does not care what kind of metal is around it, and that metal has nothing to do with microphonics, which I already had kinda figured, most of us have after some time with guitars. But I hadn't bought any Monterose, I always thought they were too much and I never had a problem with potted pickups so I never cared.

 

So there you have it, from pretty good authority, the pickups just don't care. He told me much about pickup making in those days and I have never forgotten any of it.

 

rct

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Lol... ok cheers, I will have to take your word on that :)

 

And I guess I will just have to try it out really wont I :) Maybe if theres any significant difference I will post some sound samples or something

I think Donny already knows - perhaps I better should have kept silent [scared][unsure][biggrin]

 

Let us know your expertise please - I am darn curious! [rolleyes]

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So there you have it, from pretty good authority, the pickups just don't care. He told me much about pickup making in those days and I have never forgotten any of it.

 

rct

very interesting... thanks [thumbup]

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There used to be a guitar player, Danny Gatton.

 

There used to be a pickup maker Joe Barden that made the pickups Danny used after he used very early Seymour Duncans.

 

There used to be another guy, Jay Monterose. He made guitar parts, tele parts to be specific. He lived down there in Maryland and convinced Danny he needed to use this guys parts. He said that he handmade stainless bridge plates for teles, which he did. They were very nice parts he made. He claimed that using ferrous(magnetic) metals around pickups was very bad and caused what we call microphonics, or, really bad feedback, but that if you used his stainless bridge and saddles you would eliminate eddie currents around the pickups, eliminiating microphonics. That was his schtick back then, he moved on to make guitars, and then I believe he moved on to bankruptcy for hosing too many customers. I do not think he is in business any more.

 

Microphonic pickups are pickups that are vibrating really badly, uncontrollably. It is caused by air movement around the pickups through the coils, only a little is all you need, because they then start their own actual feedback loop of vibration, and you cant control it. Unpotted pickups are usually microphonic at some point on the volume knob.

 

When I had Barden make me pickups for...four telecasters in the late 90's, we talked about the composition of the good old tele bridge plate, as guitar geezers like to do. Since Jay would always have a Barden right there inside his famous and very expensive bridges, I figured Joe would be all about 'splainin to me the deal. "Bulls hit". That was it, that was all he would say about it, he said if you bought four you wasted your money, the pickup does not care what kind of metal is around it, and that metal has nothing to do with microphonics, which I already had kinda figured, most of us have after some time with guitars. But I hadn't bought any Monterose, I always thought they were too much and I never had a problem with potted pickups so I never cared.

 

So there you have it, from pretty good authority, the pickups just don't care. He told me much about pickup making in those days and I have never forgotten any of it.

 

rct

When it is about microphonics, this is definitely correct, the pickups don't care. Regardless if they are microphonic or not, no whatever change in metallic environment would change the pickup's behaviour in this respect.

 

I experienced some bad microphonics of fine pickups in the past caused by inappropriate mounting springs which caused the pickups to vibrate relatively to the strings, but this is another story and has nothing to do with the springs being made of metal. There also have been some problems with vibrating guitar tops on hollowbodies and semi-hollows without sustain block, but to my experience no metal plate or ring ever caused or averted any microphonic trouble.

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Let me add something on steel. Since it is highly coercive or "magnetically hard" like strings, immeditately after mounting a pickup into a steel ring the magnetic field will just be deflected. During several days, the ring will "charge up" magnetically like strings do which will cause a generally wider magnetic field increasing lows while increasing highs due to the altered field gradient. Within an isotropic and homogenuous field there would happen just nothing, but since a pickup's magnetic field is neither isotropic nor homogenuous, there will be an effect.

 

However, I think Donny knows the effects on tone better than I can suppose or describe them.

 

I wondered for a long time why EMG makes - by the way also passive Hi-Z - pickups using AlNiCo and steel instead of AlNiCo and soft iron as e. g. for transformer sheet metal or typical fixed pole pieces. I think they do this to achieve increased treble response. The EMG TB-HZ in my Gibson EB 2013 basses are simply exceptional.

 

When evaluating the tone of the first Dirty Fingers pickups having come into my life recently, I think the twelve screws of each are a vital part of it. Screws are magnetically harder than soft iron rods, and so I guess they support a treble response which seems unlikely for pickups featuring such high inductance.

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I had to go check mine I had an extra set in a drawer. I dont know what they are but I had a Alnico 5 Magnet I traded out of a 498t for an Alnico 2 and mine are not magnetic. So what ever metal it is its chrome plated and non magnetic. I was thinking about this I went in and adjusted my Vetta II to play some Old School Van Halen stuff. Then I came back to this. I have never noticed any difference and I guess thats why mine are probably brass they are proline gotten from Musicians friend and fit a Les Paul perfect.

That's right, brass shouldn't have a remarkable effect since the magnetic field isn't altered in any way. So we have to wait until Rabs will present his results after evaluating his steel pickup rings. Just can't await this, guys... [rolleyes]

 

EDIT: Sorry, Donny, didn't know about your quoted post while writing my previous one.

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Hello guys,

 

I was doing this for a while (experiments with shorted coils) especially with singles on my Stratocaster when it was necessary to shield them. There was a similar shorted coil of an aluminum shield.

 

Generally speaking, guitar masters believe as a rule that a shorted coil in shielding a pickup spoils the pickup sound. Although from my experience the result was a little different. Indeed, the sound of a bridge pickup noticeably deteriorates because of the shorted coil from shielding. So I refused the shorted coil of the shield and I made a gap in it. Here my top about this: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/91811-single-coil-guitars-empty-cans-of-beer-2/

 

In turn, the sound of a neck pickup with the shorted coil of its shield can be beautiful, and here in the shield I left this coil closed. The said gap was closed by means of an additional metal plate for electric contact. I especially liked the mixed sound from both pickups [drool] one of which was with the shorted coil, and another – without. And all the records of my electric guitars that I have shown here lately, have been made by means of pickups one of which, i.e. neck pickup, was with the shorted coil of the shield.

 

By the way, I had never a mini humbucker, it is considered that it has a specific sound. But I suspect that its sound in the neck position will be better if it is in the closed cover of the shield (brass or aluminum), i.e. with the shorted coil.

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There used to be a guitar player, Danny Gatton.

 

There used to be a pickup maker Joe Barden that made the pickups Danny used after he used very early Seymour Duncans.

 

There used to be another guy, Jay Monterose. He made guitar parts, tele parts to be specific. He lived down there in Maryland and convinced Danny he needed to use this guys parts. He said that he handmade stainless bridge plates for teles, which he did. They were very nice parts he made. He claimed that using ferrous(magnetic) metals around pickups was very bad and caused what we call microphonics, or, really bad feedback, but that if you used his stainless bridge and saddles you would eliminate eddie currents around the pickups, eliminiating microphonics. That was his schtick back then, he moved on to make guitars, and then I believe he moved on to bankruptcy for hosing too many customers. I do not think he is in business any more.

 

Microphonic pickups are pickups that are vibrating really badly, uncontrollably. It is caused by air movement around the pickups through the coils, only a little is all you need, because they then start their own actual feedback loop of vibration, and you cant control it. Unpotted pickups are usually microphonic at some point on the volume knob.

 

When I had Barden make me pickups for...four telecasters in the late 90's, we talked about the composition of the good old tele bridge plate, as guitar geezers like to do. Since Jay would always have a Barden right there inside his famous and very expensive bridges, I figured Joe would be all about 'splainin to me the deal. "Bulls hit". That was it, that was all he would say about it, he said if you bought four you wasted your money, the pickup does not care what kind of metal is around it, and that metal has nothing to do with microphonics, which I already had kinda figured, most of us have after some time with guitars. But I hadn't bought any Monterose, I always thought they were too much and I never had a problem with potted pickups so I never cared.

 

So there you have it, from pretty good authority, the pickups just don't care. He told me much about pickup making in those days and I have never forgotten any of it.

 

rct

 

Furthermore, some very knowledgeable pickup makers purposely leave pickups unpotted for a hotter sound. These pickups are slightly microphonic as a normal state. If you use solid-state amps the feedback gets far less out of control and usually remains in the realm of controlled-chaos for a really hot sound...

 

Seth lover knew this and both Trevor Wilkinson and Seymour Duncan were friends of and mentored-by Seth Lover, who as we know is the father of the PAF...

 

Trevor Wilkinson has made the bridge pickup in his Vintage (brand) VS6 (SG copy) purposely unpotted to get a brighter output with more top-end. It's very hot and I believe the reverberation of the metal surfaces and parts within the contruction of the pickup add to the overall resonance and output of the pickup's signal which gives it a hotter/louder/brighter sound...

 

I presume this can be quite a tightrope walk in production and some could possibly be too "loose" and get out of hand at quieter volumes and some could be very "tight" and not add such a reverberant resonance field to the output hardly at all and sound much like the average potted humbucker...

 

Also many really cheap import humbuckers (and even single coils) are not potted as simply a cost saving step in the manufacturing and it has a relatively minimal effect on the output/tone/signal...

 

The differences are subtle, but that's what tone freaks chase; subtle differences...

 

So don't look at these "differences" as defects or negatively impacting influences, but another choice/option in tone-chasing subtle differences and selections/preferences...

 

Make these things options to try, like, or dislike not disadvantages to avoid...

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Make these things options to try, like, or dislike not disadvantages to avoid...

[thumbup]

 

Yeah cheers man... (and everyone else whos answered)..

 

I asked mainly as I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't a complete no no... But I will try both out when I get to the wiring of that build (probably within the next 2 weeks).

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