ES335 finish problems

[rainfield]

Hi.I own a Gibson ES 335 since 2008 and everything's been fine. Till now.

Three days ago I took her from the bag to play a little and I suddenly found

some small dots on the back of the neck, tiny sparkling dots... I underline

that the fingers can't feel anything: Is like if those things

were UNDER the top finish. Has someone ever seen a thing like that?

Any suggestion or help?

Thank you so much in advance.

[CR9]

Wow I never saw anything like that would be under the finish. If you do a connect-the-dots around the perimeter, it kind of looks like the shape of your left hand as it you would hold the neck to play. Maybe something was on the hand that would react to the finish and the neck was not wiped down after playing when it was put away. I would start by taking it to a good luthier for inspection. I would also get a strong magnifier and try to get a better look at it. Maybe it can just be buffed out. Good Luck and keep us informed on what you find.

[Kaiser Bill]

Took it from "the bag"?? You keep a 335 in a bag?? What kind of bag?? A gig bag?? Thats the weirdest "schmoo" I've ever seen. I hope you find out what it is and let us all know. I hope it isn't anything serious or detrimental to your beautiful guitar.

[capmaster]

Took it from "the bag"?? You keep a 335 in a bag?? What kind of bag?? A gig bag?? Thats the weirdest "schmoo" I've ever seen. I hope you find out what it is and let us all know. I hope it isn't anything serious or detrimental to your beautiful guitar.

Maybe mold growth or rot due to excessive humidity? It is always a good idea to wipe off sweat and avoid any condensation. Remember that brand-new guitars are shipped with dryer bags.

[bobouz]

Remember that brand-new guitars are shipped with dryer bags.

I have bought a number of new Gibsons, shipped in unopened factory boxes. I don't recall ever seeing a gel pack enclosed in a case or gig bag to where it could directly effect the guitar (possibly in a case pocket). I would think that anything sucking the moisture out of a nitro finished guitar in a bag or case could be a bad thing.

 

A poly finished guitar would be another matter, and I do believe I've seen gel packs in newly shipped Asian made imports.

 

As for the finish damage on this guitar, I've never run across anything quite like it. Could it be that the bag material is effecting the finish? Please let us know if you solve the mystery - and buy a quality case!

[rainfield]

Hi guys...Thank you for reading and answering. Sorry for my english: is not a bag,

but her own case! I really don't know what happened, coz I take a very good care of

that guitar. More, it's about two years I don't play her outside the house. I always

clean the instrumente after playing and, after, I put her in the case. Someone suggested

me that nitro finish, in a incomplete layers drying, can do that in time. But is that possible after six years?

Gibson Tech still does not answer and I don't believe they will. I think I will make the

neck painted again very soon.

[rainfield]

Took it from "the bag"?? You keep a 335 in a bag?? What kind of bag?? A gig bag?? Thats the weirdest "schmoo" I've ever seen. I hope you find out what it is and let us all know. I hope it isn't anything serious or detrimental to your beautiful guitar.

Sorry for my english...Is not a bag, but the original case...

[bobouz]

Sorry for my english...Is not a bag, but the original case...

That eliminates my idea!

Best of luck in sorting this out.

[capmaster]

I have bought a number of new Gibsons, shipped in unopened factory boxes. I don't recall ever seeing a gel pack enclosed in a case or gig bag to where it could directly effect the guitar (possibly in a case pocket). I would think that anything sucking the moisture out of a nitro finished guitar in a bag or case could be a bad thing.

 

A poly finished guitar would be another matter, and I do believe I've seen gel packs in newly shipped Asian made imports.

 

As for the finish damage on this guitar, I've never run across anything quite like it. Could it be that the bag material is effecting the finish? Please let us know if you solve the mystery - and buy a quality case!

All of my newly bought Gibson guitars and basses came including case and with one silica gel dryer bag in the accessories compartment. Since water molecules are only 62.5 % the mass of the average mass of nitrogen and oxygen molecules combined, humidity moves accordingly faster than air.

 

In general, 35 to 65 % relative humidity will be fine, and 30 to 70 % will cause no serious damage. Hide and bone glue, however, become brittle under very dry conditions. Sudden changes may also cause brittle nitrocellulose finishes, causing lots of cracks called weather checking.

 

Hi guys...Thank you for reading and answering. Sorry for my english: is not a bag,

but her own case! I really don't know what happened, coz I take a very good care of

that guitar. More, it's about two years I don't play her outside the house. I always

clean the instrumente after playing and, after, I put her in the case. Someone suggested

me that nitro finish, in a incomplete layers drying, can do that in time. But is that possible after six years?

Gibson Tech still does not answer and I don't believe they will. I think I will make the

neck painted again very soon.

I think it is a good idea to have the neck refinished. Luckily I never before heard of a problem like that occurring on an appropriately maintained guitar like your ES 335, and so I hope it will be solved forever this way.

 

I cross my fingers for you and your ES 335, and keep us informed, please.

[CR9]

Hi guys...Thank you for reading and answering. Sorry for my english: is not a bag,

but her own case! I really don't know what happened, coz I take a very good care of

that guitar. More, it's about two years I don't play her outside the house. I always

clean the instrumente after playing and, after, I put her in the case. Someone suggested

me that nitro finish, in a incomplete layers drying, can do that in time. But is that possible after six years?

Gibson Tech still does not answer and I don't believe they will. I think I will make the

neck painted again very soon.

 

I have not seem anything like that after years unless it was on the surface. Moisture in the nitro should have shown up well before now.

I do not know for sure about the warranty outside the USA, but I think you should contact the dealer or the importer.

A good luthier should be able to quickly tell you what is happening. Humidity and temperature will cause cracking not bubbles.

I am still thinking it is something that has come into contact with the nitro, not from the guitar itself. It still looks like a left hand print to me.

[kidblast]

looks like something was exposed to the nitro.

 

is this spot of the neck where the neck rests on the support area when it's in the case?

 

Did something possibly get on the case material there?

 

 

or another thought..

 

Did you have a guitar strap maybe laying under the neck, while it was stored in the case?

[quapman]

I have never seen anything like that.

 

If I were you I would wait to hear from your Gibson tech.

Especially if it is under the finish as you say.

Sounds like a factory defect to me.

 

It doesn't look like any mold I have ever seen.

Do you have a luthier you can go to for an opinion?

[Thomse]

I have never seen anything like that.

 

If I were you I would wait to hear from your Gibson tech.

Especially if it is under the finish as you say.

Sounds like a factory defect to me.

 

It doesn't look like any mold I have ever seen.

Do you have a luthier you can go to for an opinion?

i have seen that it looks like solvent pop . E

ither some thing was under The clear or some thing got to the clear .

[bobouz]

All of my newly bought Gibson guitars and basses came including case and with one silica gel dryer bag in the accessories compartment.

We are in agreement on this fact.

 

Silica gel in the accessory compartment yes, but silica gel exposed directly to the guitar, no.

 

Your earlier post tends to imply that the gel bag is directly exposed to the guitar when shipped from the factory, and is being utilized to control humidity. That is not what occurs with newly shipped Gibsons, and it is this particular point I am attempting to clarify.

 

As I noted above, I do seem to recall seeing a gel bag in the accessory pocket of a new Gibson (which I would have thrown out immediately). But with a new J-15 received approx seven weeks ago, I do not recall seeing a gel bag, even in the pocket.

 

Perhaps someone from Gibson could provide further information on their approach to shipping and humidity considerations.

[rainfield]

Thanks again everybody for your concern. Is good sharing worries! :)

I hope I'll get neck painted again soon.

[capmaster]

We are in agreement on this fact.

 

Silica gel in the accessory compartment yes, but silica gel exposed directly to the guitar, no.

 

Your earlier post tends to imply that the gel bag is directly exposed to the guitar when shipped from the factory, and is being utilized to control humidity. That is not what occurs with newly shipped Gibsons, and it is this particular point I am attempting to clarify.

 

As I noted above, I do seem to recall seeing a gel bag in the accessory pocket of a new Gibson (which I would have thrown out immediately). But with a new J-15 received approx seven weeks ago, I do not recall seeing a gel bag, even in the pocket.

 

Perhaps someone from Gibson could provide further information on their approach to shipping and humidity considerations.

All the non-Gibson guitars of mine shipped in a gigbag or a foam film bag within a carton came with the dryer bag exposed directly to the guitar. They all have polyester or polyurethane finishes.

[BigKahune]

.

Looks like a case of a contaminant being transferred from the hand to the nitro. The contaminant could've come from anywhere - working on something mechanical, cooking, gardening, etc. Lots of people wash their hands before handling their expensive instruments.

 

Good luck with the repair.

 

.

[CR9]

Do we have any results or cause on this issue yet?

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Hello.

 

Although it's too difficult to be completely precise as to the cause of this problem, just by a random look at some internet photo's, it really does look as if it may be a solvent pop fault.

 

That is an Official Material Manufacturers troubleshooting descriptive title for this kind of fault. It may be that moisture, solvent, or some kind of contaminant was present on the wood when filler or stain was applied, or after they were, and between the time, or even whilst, the clearcoat was applied over those layers.

 

Probably the underlying material was not fully cured between coats thus the solvents though appearing to be cured and dormant, are not fully so and could be reactivated under certain circumstance. Manufacturers today are using all kinds of curing processes for their Finishes, and it may be that time and exposure or lack of exposure has continued the curing process long after the Instrument has been bought.

 

 

Although we may think that the Instrument Finish is already completely cured, and seems to be, in point of fact that may still continue for some while, dependent upon how we keep and use the Instrument.

 

It may be that heat or humidity from your hand have activated or accelerated an underlying solvent problem and thus caused it to break out exposed it in this area of the Instrument, a dominant hand position, thus with rather more activating influence than any other place.

 

Although the problem itself was always underlying there, it took an additional element to cause it to fully break open and out. Nitro-cellulose is a porous Finish. Heat, Moisture and such can actually travel right through the Material. It used to be used to paint cars with, and that is why you needed to wax your car to make it properly water proof.

 

Here are some pictures of Solvent Pop. But do ask the Expert Luthier's for their insightful advice at http://fretsnet.ning.com/

 

Good Luck to you!

[rainfield]

Thank you very much,Anthony Buckeridge: that's an interesting information and it can describe what happened to my guitar. Gibson tech kindly answered me, but they could not guess anything about that. In the end, I sure will make the neck painted again. Nitro has to be given with great skill and I think it requires its own time to get perfect. So, maybe, production requirements can't be so precise.

Thanks again for your kind concern.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Hi!

 

It has been increasingly the case that newly incoming tighter government legislation and regulation has forced Manufacturers to utilise new Technologies and Materials that mean lower atmospheric output and release of volatile emissions into the environment.

 

Traditionally, when a Finish is cured by heat, although filtered, the thinners are released into the atmosphere as the Finish dry's, into the local environment via a tall Chimney Stack. Blue Light (Ultra Violet) is one amongst a number of New Finish curing technologies that Manufacturers are using to lower their Monitored Release of Volatile Emissions, and Energy Costs as Traditional Convection Ovens and Fans are done away with.

 

There was undoubtedly some small degree of Manufacturing Error involved, perhaps as simple as a spattering of thinners from a Spray Gun being cleaned, possibly compounded with a Curing Technology Issue too. I suspect they didn't give the full time for curing that they might have done, due to production pressures for volume by Managers. The combined result, is the problem you have. From what you write, the issue is definitely coming from the material or underlying layers and emerging from deeper within the Finish.

 

The Gibson Tech won't be able to diagnose this over the phone, because of the specialist nature of the problem. These occurrences are not that common, compared to most issues. The warrantee was up quite a while back.So I would most strongly suggest you go to Frets.Net and simply explain the problem there along with the pictures.

 

There will undoubtedly be a Top Italian Luthier that is physically reachable for you, in your region and available on that board, who can solve the problem for you.

 

But you must clearly ask for that help if you want it.

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, just for safeties sake, I would allow the Guitar to receive light all around it, but not direct sunlight, and not too much heat. Just don't keep it completely in the dark all the time in case it is still curing.

 

I don't wish to cause you undue concern, the issue is probably simply localised, but its sensible to leave the Guitar in a room for some while or regularly for a time SAFELY, but where it can receive more light and gentle warmth as that might help cure the Finish further, and prevent any additional issues from occurring in the future.

 

 

 

Assuming this is the nature of the problem.

 

Here's some data to help you fully understand it.

 

I think the Guitar is too long out of warrantee and too far away to trouble Gibson about this, although the issue probably is originally a Manufacturing Problem. It's been 5 years with no problems. So I suggest you see someone at Frets.Net to solve this for you.

 

 

 

Origin and Potential Causes:

 

Solvent or air trapped in film escapes during drying leaving pop

marks.

Incorrect viscosity, spray pressure, flash time, or improper drying.

Incorrect choice of hardeners and/or thinners. Use of fast-dry

thinner or reducer, especially when the material is sprayed too dry

or at excessive pressure.

Excessive film thickness. Insufficient drying time between coats

and too heavy application of the undercoats may trap solvents

causing popping of the color coat as they later escape.

Incorrect drying of primer / fillers.

Improper surface cleaning or preparation.

Infrared facilities too close.

Baking was started too soon after application.

Baking temperature too high.

 

 

Prevention Techniques:

 

Thoroughly clean all areas to be painted.

Select suitable thinner or reducer for shop conditions.

Allow sufficient flash and drying time. Allow each coat of primersurfacer

to flash off naturally - DO NOT FAN.

Apply film at recommended thickness.

Follow technical recommendations of products in use.

 

 

Remedy:

 

If damage is extensive and severe, paint must be removed down

to undercoat or material, depending on depth of blisters; then

refinish.

In less severe cases, sand until smooth, resurface and refinish.

 

 

 

 

 

You have a lovely Guitar.

 

Get someone really good to attend to it for you in your region, or ask Gibson for an Authorised Repair Recommendation that is nearest to you.

 

 

Good Luck with your Guitar!

[Paul P.]

rainfield, I saw your topic entry a while back and wanted to reply to it, but was having some problems with my old userid and had to create a new one and just

got validated by the administrator. I'm not sure what's causing the finish problem you have, but I see the same thing happening, but not to the extent you have it,

on a part of the neck of my SG Standard behind the 1st and 2nd fret area, below the fret board binding. I know that I had to have my SG refinished up in that area

because a year ago I had it knocked off of the guitar stand, accidently, by our horn player, while I was playing my CS-336 and the headstock snapped. Maybe the

nitro-cellulous lacquer wasn't quite cured all the way; I'm not sure. It doesn't affect the playability, so I'm not worried about it. Is your guitar new or used, or

do you know if it was ever refinished? I'm just curious, 'cause as I said, I see it happening to my guitar, too. Let me know more about it if you get the chance.

Thanks! Paul P.

[rainfield]

Thanks again, Anthony and Paul. Your informations are precious, mainly for someone who could possibly get same accident. which I really don't hope. After a not so brief time and lot of askings, I got my Gibson ES335 (wonderful guitar) to an expert liuther here in Italy and I am waiting he fixes that finish issue: let's cross fingers!

[Paul P.]

Thanks again, Anthony and Paul. Your informations are precious, mainly for someone who could possibly get same accident. which I really don't hope. After a not so brief time and lot of askings, I got my Gibson ES335 (wonderful guitar) to an expert liuther here in Italy and I am waiting he fixes that finish issue: let's cross fingers!

 

Thanks for the reply, rainfield, and best of luck with the refinish on your ES-335. Let me know how it turns out. Paul P.