Acoustic Aging Speeds

[Hype]

I have a question acoustic lovers, say 2 J-200's were sitting in a store both made in 2011. One remains unsold (Natural) in the store, while the other is purchased by a customer (Sunburst).

 

1) Customer takes the guitar home, babies the hell out of it (always in its case, humidified, plays it a few times but nothing to constitute it as overplaying or work it in), does not used pump polish or cleaning agents.

 

2) The other guitar sits on the store hanger played by customers (possibly more than the purchased guitar), environment is well humidified (as most acoustic store rooms with high end guitars are.

 

Do you guys feel both guitars would age at the same pace? Because I'm noticing that the nitrocellulose lacquer on my Sunburst is diminishing (aging, bleeding into the wood), whereas the other guitar sitting in the store (Natural) the finish on that seems brand new still, even though it's been played more and even rented out to customers. So I guess my ask is what factors contributes to speeding up the aging process (feel and look) of a guitar?

 

Thanks in advance....

[E-minor7]

This is an interesting riddle - a real life scenery with many details involved and a stange, still straight Q in the end.

 

There is however one factor you might overlook - body-chemistry.

Have you considered that you yourself could have an uneasy relationship with nitrocellulose ?

 

When you spoke about age I immediately thought sound and breaking in process, , , not the case, we're talking melt-down.

Tell you non of my new G's (2008, 2010 and 2012) have the prob.

In other words - the dissolving lacquer isn't about age as such., , , but probably comes from the mentioned subjective you meeting the guitar.

 

D'you own other Gibsons or nitro-guitars and did you ever experience anything like this before. . .

[EuroAussie]

Is this a trick question ?

[E-minor7]

Is this a trick question ?

 

Hehe, , , don't think so, EA -

[zombywoof]

Years and years back some guys had two violins made as exact to each other as possible. They took all kinds of sound measurements in a lab and recorded the data. One was given to a fiddler who played the hell out of it for a few years. The other was placed away. When both were retrieved and all that scientific data redone they found not on iota in difference. They then gathered some pretty accomplished players to play the things who determined they could not hear or feel any difference between the two.

[duluthdan]

Possible that its simply a matter of lighting? The sunbrurst appearance seems to change, to me, in different lighting. I played my J-45 last night, set it down, and when next walked into the room my heart stopped for a second - the thing looked like a cobra burst. Eeek ! Now with today's sunrise, all is well, it looks normal. I do not notice any "bleed" as you referenced.

[bram99]

By "bleeding into the wood" to you mean something like this? Here is a link to Bluesking's fine looking J45 from the J45 NGD thread (hope you don't mind BK, but your pics are great!).

 

 

 

If it is that corrugated look you are talking about, then I think you are seeing a combination of the nitro finish shrinking and the hygroscopic properties of wood. Both of those things are the result of many variables occurring over time. The nitro finish will continue to off-gas and thus "sink-in" and the wood grains absorb water with wide grains and thin grains capable of storing different amounts, hence the corrugated look. An over hydrated and under hydrated guitar can exhibited this more likely it is just the natural aging process of a very thin nitro finishes (and part of what makes them cool in my opinion). It is common and not a problem.

 

Temp, humidity and time play key roles here but it is weird. I bought a year old Keb Mo brand new off of Amazon that showed up with a perfectly flat top and within 3 weeks it looked like an old guitar. I figured that was because it came from a warehouse in Arizona to my house in San Francisco. So I think there is significant but not obvious variation in the environments of the two guitars in question.

[E-minor7]

By "bleeding into the wood" to you mean something like this? Here is a link to Bluesking's fine looking J45 from the J45 NGD thread (hope you don't mind BK, but your pics are great!).

 

If it is that corrugated look you are talking about, then I think you are seeing a combination of the nitro finish shrinking and the hygroscopic properties of wood. Both of those things are the result of many variables occurring over time. The nitro finish will continue to off-gas and thus "sink-in" and the wood grains absorb water with wide grains and thin grains capable of storing different amounts, hence the corrugated look. An over hydrated and under hydrated guitar can exhibited this more likely it is just the natural aging process of a very thin nitro finishes (and part of what makes them cool in my opinion). It is common and not a problem.

 

Temp, humidity and time play key roles here but it is weird. I bought a year old Keb Mo brand new off of Amazon that showed up with a perfectly flat top and within 3 weeks it looked like an old guitar. I figured that was because it came from a warehouse in Arizona to my house in San Francisco. So I think there is significant but not obvious variation in the environments of the two guitars in question.

 

I think you're onto something ✓ - my response took step from the idea that the fade/bleed was in one particular spot (the zone around the p-guard).

 

[JuanCarlosVejar]

or maybe sunbursts start aging more rapidly than naturals

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC

[BluesKing777]

By "bleeding into the wood" to you mean something like this? Here is a link to Bluesking's fine looking J45 from the J45 NGD thread (hope you don't mind BK, but your pics are great!).

 

 

 

If it is that corrugated look you are talking about, then I think you are seeing a combination of the nitro finish shrinking and the hygroscopic properties of wood.

 

 

 

Ha! Bram99, I was about to post that very photo and Voila! It is already there.

 

 

I have seen that finish called Corduoroy on old Gibsons. A lot of the old ones have the finish gone in the very same area as mine above - strange isn't it? Must be something to do with the prep work/sanding.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Hype]

By "bleeding into the wood" to you mean something like this? Here is a link to Bluesking's fine looking J45 from the J45 NGD thread (hope you don't mind BK, but your pics are great!).

 

 

 

If it is that corrugated look you are talking about, then I think you are seeing a combination of the nitro finish shrinking and the hygroscopic properties of wood. Both of those things are the result of many variables occurring over time. The nitro finish will continue to off-gas and thus "sink-in" and the wood grains absorb water with wide grains and thin grains capable of storing different amounts, hence the corrugated look. An over hydrated and under hydrated guitar can exhibited this more likely it is just the natural aging process of a very thin nitro finishes (and part of what makes them cool in my opinion). It is common and not a problem.

 

Temp, humidity and time play key roles here but it is weird. I bought a year old Keb Mo brand new off of Amazon that showed up with a perfectly flat top and within 3 weeks it looked like an old guitar. I figured that was because it came from a warehouse in Arizona to my house in San Francisco. So I think there is significant but not obvious variation in the environments of the two guitars in question.

 

Yes that is the appearance! And it's quite possible your theory of over hydration? I mean keeping a guitar in its case with a humidifier even at the same hydration reading as a room with the same hydration may be different? As the guitar is breathing more in an open room than in its case? I know it sounds funny to reference a guitar as a living organism.....

[Hype]

This is an interesting riddle - a real life scenery with many details involved and a stange, still straight Q in the end.

 

There is however one factor you might overlook - body-chemistry.

Have you considered that you yourself could have an uneasy relationship with nitrocellulose ?

 

When you spoke about age I immediately thought sound and breaking in process, , , not the case, we're talking melt-down.

Tell you non of my new G's (2008, 2010 and 2012) have the prob.

In other words - the dissolving lacquer isn't about age as such., , , but probably comes from the mentioned subjective you meeting the guitar.

 

D'you own other Gibsons or nitro-guitars and did you ever experience anything like this before. . .

 

Hi Eminor7. In terms of Gibsons, yes I own a ES-355 VOS but I don't think that's the best example to use as the finish of the VOS is meant to look relic....Body chemistry? Interesting theory, but I doubt it....

[bill67]

or maybe sunbursts start aging more rapidly than naturals

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC

I would think they use a better grain of wood for naturals.

[bram99]

If the guitar is over hydrated it will exhibit other symptoms....

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaWetGuitar.pdf

 

Dry guitars can do the corduroy too...in general dark bands dense, light bands spongy....water goes away sponge gets small. Dark banks higher than light bands.

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/10_SymptomsofaDryGuitar.pdf

 

 

Radius of the top is the best place to start because excess water creating the ripples would more profoundly affect the width of the soundboard (water expands the wood). Because the top would has no where to expand the top radius would be exaggerated. I would start with a straight edge test across the soundboard and get a hygrometer. If those two things check out, it is just the way nitro finishes age...and something to enjoy.

[capmaster]

Bram brought it to the point IMHO.

 

Just want to add my two cents here. I think a "soft" nitrocellulose finish following the graining and figuring structures is better than a brittle one. I also don't see any problems in the typical orange peel of nitro finishes, usually most obvious on mahogany timbers. In my belief, the advantage of a fine nitro finish is the adherence to the wood making it fit like a glove. Typical poly finishes are stiffer and more coherent than nitro. So they might look smoother but have less contact to the wood.

[MissouriPicker]

I don't know that there is any formula to answer this question. Far too many variables involved and they all vary depending on who owns the guitar: weather, outdoors exposure to excessive cold/heat, humidity, care, how hard it is played.

[Phelonious Ponk]

I thnk the simplest explanation for the difference in the look is that the sinking of the finish into the grain of the wood simply shows up a lot more on a dark background.

 

Regardless, the sunburst will always sound better because it is more confident in its Gibbiness. A Natural top will always be conflicted and unsure of its true identity.

 

P

[duluthdan]

Regardless, the sunburst will always sound better because it is more confident in its Gibbiness. A Natural top will always be conflicted and unsure of its true identity.

 

P

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it !

[Fullmental Alpinist]

 

Regardless, the sunburst will always sound better because it is more confident in its Gibbiness. A Natural top will always be conflicted and unsure of its true identity.

 

P

 

Truer words never spoken. Here! Here!

 

 

FMA

[slimt]

as each year goes by.. they get older..

[Hogeye]

Lots of very interesting theories but none are accurate. This has nothing to do with humidity. It has nothing to do with sanding either. It's really quite simple. Gibson tries to give you the finest finish possible as it makes the guitar sound better. Each guitar is buffed by an experienced buffer by hand. The buffer tries to remove as much of the finish as possible. Some are better at it than others. The more finish that is removed at this step in production the more the guitar will display this feature.

 

If you looked at a piece of wood from the end you would see the dark grain lines are higher than the lighter looking spaces between the dark lines. Think peaks and valleys here. To keep the guitars as smooth as possible Gibson puts several very light coats of lacquer on the guitar and then wet sands the finish down to the top of the grain leaving the valleys full of lacquer. Then they shoot more lacquer on the guitar and the finish builds up flat. When the nitro has completely dried then they buff the entire guitar with a series of different grits to remove as much nitro as possible.

 

The finish will outgas as the guitar ages and the nitro will shrink and become part of the guitar's wood. This is very desirable. The better the buffing job the sooner the guitar will display this look. You are just seeing the peaks and valley in the wood and a lot of the look is exaggerated by the "lens" effect of the lacquer but you can feel it by rubbing your fingers over to surface. The vintage sunburst finish shows the look better.

 

You pay a ton of money for the nitro finish and you pay it for this reason.

[BluesKing777]

Aha!

 

Thanks Hogeye.

 

So no coincidence that my J45 in the photo is also starting to sound sensational?

 

 

BluesKing777.

[bram99]

Lots of very interesting theories but none are accurate. This has nothing to do with humidity. It has nothing to do with sanding either. It's really quite simple. Gibson tries to give you the finest finish possible as it makes the guitar sound better. Each guitar is buffed by an experienced buffer by hand. The buffer tries to remove as much of the finish as possible. Some are better at it than others. The more finish that is removed at this step in production the more the guitar will display this feature.

 

If you looked at a piece of wood from the end you would see the dark grain lines are higher than the lighter looking spaces between the dark lines. Think peaks and valleys here. To keep the guitars as smooth as possible Gibson puts several very light coats of lacquer on the guitar and then wet sands the finish down to the top of the grain leaving the valleys full of lacquer. Then they shoot more lacquer on the guitar and the finish builds up flat. When the nitro has completely dried then they buff the entire guitar with a series of different grits to remove as much nitro as possible.

 

The finish will outgas as the guitar ages and the nitro will shrink and become part of the guitar's wood. This is very desirable. The better the buffing job the sooner the guitar will display this look. You are just seeing the peaks and valley in the wood and a lot of the look is exaggerated by the "lens" effect of the lacquer but you can feel it by rubbing your fingers over to surface. The vintage sunburst finish shows the look better.

 

You pay a ton of money for the nitro finish and you pay it for this reason.

 

I said it was the nitro off-gassing so your statement that none of these theories are accurate is not accurate. I get your point about peaks and valleys, but I don't think guitar tops come out of the thickness sander with those peaks and valleys as pronounced as they become over time. Also, I have seen this go the other direction bringing a guitar back from over hydration...the guitar top became noticeably smoother as it dried. If the physical properties of wood are at play at all here, I don't see how environmental variables cannot be at play as well.

[western viking]

I have a one year old Collings D2H and I hung it up in my humidified spare room across from a window so the light would age the top.

When I bought the guitar the top was so light it was almost white.....and I did not like the colour of it. So it hung it there all fall and winter but unknown to me the humidifier started to malfunction and the guitar was drying out....I noticed the finish was aging nicely and getting that nice amber golden colour which I like but then I noticed the finish was starting to do the corduroy thing (Ridges).

I took the guitar to my luthier who has 35 years experience he warned me the guitar was drying out and showed me how the top was flat and sinking instead of havine a slight radius up from the sides....scared the hell out of me and I then realized my humidifier was plugged up with crap and not working right....So he told me to ge the guitar back in the case with a humidifier and keep it in the case in the humidified room.

I did this and also repaired my room humidifier. After about 3 weeks the top radius returned and the ridges in the finish actually leveled back out somewhat but not perfect like new. Luthier said this was normal and nothing to panic or worry about. I live in a dry climate and my Oasis humidifier has to be fed every 3 days or so ,,,,,,It is amazing how much water that guitar has sucked back up.....

[bill67]

Do cheaper guitar age and break in faster than like a Gibson,Or it makes no difference.