Allie Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Hi all, I have a 1993 J-45 that I just bought and have discovered that the truss rod is not like any other I've seen in a Gibson, does Gibson use a two way truss rod in some models? maybe in the past? The truss rod in my CL-20 is the conventional style with the 5/16" wrench size jam nut that tightens against the top of the neck....However, the setup in the J-45 has a 1/4"Head and seems to turn the rod itself within the neck and is definitely NOT against the top of the neck as I can see 2 or 3 treads between the head and the top of the guitar neck?? does this sound like anything anybody here is familiar with? Or is my truss rod messed up? Thanks for any input as I am quite confused, I was told on another site that it was nothing like the poster had ever seen on a Gibson guitar so I may have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Not to be an "alarmist"....but maybe your guitar is a 'fake'...? Seriously though, that is a hard one to 'diagnose' over the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Hi all, I have a 1993 J-45 that I just bought and have discovered that the truss rod is not like any other I've seen in a Gibson, does Gibson use a two way truss rod in some models? maybe in the past? The truss rod in my CL-20 is the conventional style with the 5/16" wrench size jam nut that tightens against the top of the neck....However, the setup in the J-45 has a 1/4"Head and seems to turn the rod itself within the neck and is definitely NOT against the top of the neck as I can see 2 or 3 treads between the head and the top of the guitar neck?? does this sound like anything anybody here is familiar with? Or is my truss rod messed up? Thanks for any input as I am quite confused, I was told on another site that it was nothing like the poster had ever seen on a Gibson guitar so I may have a problem. Yes.. Gibson uses two way trussrods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Not to be an "alarmist"....but maybe your guitar is a 'fake'...? Seriously though, that is a hard one to 'diagnose' over the internet Thanks for the reply, I'm reasonably sure it's not a 'fake' but I suppose it's not an impossibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Yes.. Gibson uses two way trussrods. Whew, That's good to hear, I'll ask you too if you adjust the two way rods the same as the others 'right to tight and left to loose? I've never dealt with these before. Thanks for the response and any thing else you can add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Ill only touch the trussrod if its a obvious Bow... other than that... I wont.. ill leave that to the luthier.. one turn to many will break a headstock or crack down the grain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 pics of the guitar and the truss rod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Gibson used a double action truss rod in the early 90's.'92 to 94. They were a terrible idea and if I had one I would return it as none of them worked. They kept trying to make them work but they just couldn't figure out how to install them. They had a bad habit if cracking the backs of the necks and popping the fret boards. The biggest problem was that none of the dealers knew how to adjust them and just kept over adjusting as they figured if you backed them off they would be fine. When they did that they were actually applying reverse pressure on the neck and the more they backed them off the tighter the reverse bow became until the back of the neck cracked. Either way you turn them they apply pressure so be very careful if you are foolish enough to tackle one. Good luck. If you bring it to a repair person make sure he knows what a double action truss rod is and how to adjust it or you will be in for major problems. They are very easy to spot. They have a brass nut brazed to the truss rod and there is nothing that looks like a traditional nut. When you turn the brass nut the rod itself turns. These were found all of the production not just special models. They had so many guitars come back with neck damage they got rid of them. This was the bright idea of the general manager and Ren was violently opposed to the stupid program. The G.M. was so ego driven he couldn't let go as this was his big contribution to the guitars. This was the same G.M. that had the interiors of the guitars sprayed with lacquer to stop humidity problems. Needless to say the guitars sounded like they were stuffed with old socks. Between the truss rods and the inside spray job I would never own one of the guitars. When this GM got fired Ren brought the guitars back to his spec and things were fine again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Gibson used a double action truss rod in the early 90's.'92 to 94. They were a terrible idea and if I had one I would return it as none of them worked. They kept trying to make them work but they just couldn't figure out how to install them. They had a bad habit if cracking the backs of the necks and popping the fret boards. The biggest problem was that none of the dealers knew how to adjust them and just kept over adjusting as they figured if you backed them off they would be fine. When they did that they were actually applying reverse pressure on the neck and the more they backed them off the tighter the reverse bow became until the back of the neck cracked. Either way you turn them they apply pressure so be very careful if you are foolish enough to tackle one. Good luck. If you bring it to a repair person make sure he knows what a double action truss rod is and how to adjust it or you will be in for major problems. They are very easy to spot. They have a brass nut brazed to the truss rod and there is nothing that looks like a traditional nut. When you turn the brass nut the rod itself turns. These were found all of the production not just special models. They had so many guitars come back with neck damage they got rid of them. This was the bright idea of the general manager and Ren was violently opposed to the stupid program. The G.M. was so ego driven he couldn't let go as this was his big contribution to the guitars. This was the same G.M. that had the interiors of the guitars sprayed with lacquer to stop humidity problems. Needless to say the guitars sounded like they were stuffed with old socks. Between the truss rods and the inside spray job I would never own one of the guitars. When this GM got fired Ren brought the guitars back to his spec and things were fine again. You just described my truss rod to a T.......However, since I bought it from a private owner returning it is not an option, and the guitar plays fine as is so I'll have to deal with it. I suppose I could check with Gibson and see what my options are for returning it to them and have a new adjuster installed. Has anyone ever dealt with Gibson directly with an issue like this? are they even into repairing a truss rod blunder? at my expense of course... or would you recommend a local luthier tackle something like this? Thanks a lot for the good info and knowing what you tell me, I see why the seller was 'flexible' with his price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Thanks Hogeye , for that very usefull information Now we all know which years of Gibson acoustics to stear away from. Sorry for your bad misfortune also Allie. I hope it all works out for you .... .....if it sounds too good to be true, it sometimes is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Thanks Hogeye , for that very usefull information Now we all know which years of Gibson acoustics to stear away from. Sorry for your bad misfortune also Allie. I hope it all works out for you .... .....if it sounds too good to be true, it sometimes is. Yeah thanks, I don't usually find the 'deals' but I would of thought that this issue would have been more prevalent around the guitar boards than it is, It appears that Gibson sold MANY of these guitars or at least one could assume that in several years that would be the case, who'd a thunk it would NOT have been more common knowledge twenty years out? Oh well, I've been in these situations before and probably will again..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I agree.... and admit to knowing more about "vintage Gibsons" than I do about modern production ones. I guess that it sometimes takes 20 years or so for "production F-ups" to rear their head and be brought to light Perhaps we can all benefit by spreading the word. I can remember clearly 'almost buying' a brand new '92 J185. Soooooo, does this mean that the Centennial series of 1994 most likely have this type truss rod ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottabetweed Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Yea, my '94 centennial hummingbird has this truss rod. This is pretty timely, as I gave mine a slight tweak about 2 weeks ago. I was not aware it was a double. It performed well and gave me the back bow I was needing, with only a slight adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Just keep in mind with the double action you never back anything off. When you turn the adjuster counter clockwise or lefty you are applying pressure in the opposite direction. A quarter turn to the left is a big amount of adjustment. A full turn is disaster. I wouldn't be giving up the guitar just yet. I would just make sure any adjustments are done by someone with knowledge as to how they work. Changing the truss rod to the single action would be a nightmare and considerable cost. I will tell you this. A lot of the double actions are frozen. They won't turn at all. That may be a sort of blessing as if you can't turn it you can't break the neck???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Thanks for the input guys, I guess it's not the end of the world but it would have been a much better deal if the guitar would have had the simple single action truss rod and I would not have to wonder what it will do to the neck of the guitar if it ever does need to be adjusted. It's a nice guitar as is so I guess I'll just hang onto it for a while and see what happens. Thanks again for your input it sorta help put my mind at ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 It is my opinion that the truss rod should not need much (if any) tweaking over several years, after it is optomised and if kept in a stable environment.....No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottabetweed Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 If your saddle and nut are in good shape, the only thing that can move is the neck. If the action gets out of whack, a slight adjustment always gets mine right back where it should be. Slight is the key word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 Everything is good at this time with the setup so I'm not going to get too excited about the truss rod for now, if and when it ever needs any adjustment I'll most likely take it to a pro and have it checked out at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 If your saddle and nut are in good shape, the only thing that can move is the neck. If the action gets out of whack, a slight adjustment always gets mine right back where it should be. Slight is the key word. While changes in the action are a side effect of adjusting the truss rod, using the truss rod to adjust action is bad business. Action should be adjusted at the nut and saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gottabetweed Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 While changes in the action are a side effect of adjusting the truss rod, using the truss rod to adjust action is bad business. Action should be adjusted at the nut and saddle. So if a nut and saddle are properly set up, what could possibly change from the nut and saddle that would require attention? The only reason your action would change is if the neck moved. That is what the truss rod is in there for. Nuts don't spontaneously get cut to high or low, and saddles don't add or subtract height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 You have to look at what the function of a truss rod is. The truss rod is to adjust relief or the bow of the neck. Adding or lessening relief will essentially create pockets of higher or lower action but will not give you a consistency up the entire board. That is why a good setup will deal nut height and action at the 12th fret after adjusting the truss rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 While changes in the action are a side effect of adjusting the truss rod, using the truss rod to adjust action is bad business. Action should be adjusted at the nut and saddle. it's all about the order of operations... just like in your old math class. NEVER shave a nut or saddle until after the truss rod has been adjusted properly. that shouldn't be done until the humidity is set proper. to say that using the truss rod to adjust action is bad business, misses a key point: several things can affect action and you need to fix the one that is actually the culprit. if a neck has a huge bow in it, and you shave the saddle to lower the action, then the notes in the middle of the neck will fret out. if it has a back bow and you put in a higher saddle, the the action at the first few frets will suffer. if you shave a nut that isn't out of spec, then intonation will suffer and you will never get fretted notes to play true when the open strings are tuned. follow the order of operations, and only adjust the culprit. the order is: humidity -> truss rod -> saddle -> nut. this is assuming that the guitar doesn't need a neck reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 Just keep in mind with the double action you never back anything off. When you turn the adjuster counter clockwise or lefty you are applying pressure in the opposite direction. A quarter turn to the left is a big amount of adjustment. A full turn is disaster. I wouldn't be giving up the guitar just yet. I would just make sure any adjustments are done by someone with knowledge as to how they work. Changing the truss rod to the single action would be a nightmare and considerable cost. I will tell you this. A lot of the double actions are frozen. They won't turn at all. That may be a sort of blessing as if you can't turn it you can't break the neck???? What exactly are you talking about when you say "break the neck"? Although my guitar setup is fine now the climate where I live has four distinct seasons and the humidity changes drastically with each so it plays a big part in how the woods in my guitars respond and I find that it is necessary from time to time to 'tweak' my setup a bit or suffer with the change.....maybe I'd be better off just living with it if it is that easy to damage it by making any adjustments. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What exactly are you talking about when you say "break the neck"? Although my guitar setup is fine now the climate where I live has four distinct seasons and the humidity changes drastically with each so it plays a big part in how the woods in my guitars respond and I find that it is necessary from time to time to 'tweak' my setup a bit or suffer with the change.....maybe I'd be better off just living with it if it is that easy to damage it by making any adjustments. Thanks for the help. This part of the neck is a very vulnerable part of the guitar. There is a pocket routed out of the neck where the truss rod is adjusted. The wood is very thin in this area. Some other manufactures have chosen to add a volute to this area to strengthen the neck. Gibson doesn't on your guitar. If they add too much pressure, by accident, to the neck by adjusting the nut to strongly you will add pressure to the weak area and the neck can split along the grain line in the back of the neck. The headstock will not break off but the neck can open up and split. It is quite common in these double action guitars and if the person doing the adjustment knows this he can avoid damage. I'm just trying to help you avoid disaster by telling you to seek professional help when adjusting the double action truss rod. I'm sure your guitar is just fine and we often fix things that are not broken. Enjoy your fine guitar. Humidify your guitar and keep it humidified to 40 to 45%. There are plenty of fine products that you can buy to accomplish this. Don't forget to oil your fretboard and bridge as well. This is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I found this diagram that illustrates the function of the double-action truss rod. http://www.godinguit...0adjustment.pdf It is easy to imagine how minute the turns should be to make adjustments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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