1969 Les Paul Gold Top: seeking more info

[CharmedLifePcks]

Hi, Everyone. I have been chasing a 1969 LP Gold Top and it appears I will be seeing the guitar again this week to possibly make a purchase.

 

I am looking to purchase this instrument for resale, so I have to be careful what I pay for it. If the seller asks too much I'm prepared to walk away.

 

I'm sorry I don't have any pics. I'm pretty sure this is a late late version of the guitar. I have been in touch with a top Gibson luthier who will be going through the instrument with me after purchase. It's pretty hammered cosmetically so I'm assuming it will need some work. He also cautioned me that most of these guitar have had poorly done modifications that can substantially lower the value of the instruments. So here is my question:

 

When I have the guitar in my hands, what do I want to for that might suggest serious modification or alteration from the original factory condition? I don't know if this is a weird question or not, but I thought I'd ask.

 

Thank You.

[cjsinla]

Refin? Broken neck? Replaced pups and pots? Refret? Tuners? Bridge?

[BigKahune]

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Also, look out for a LP Deluxe that originally had minis which were sometime routed and refitted with full size buckers - some of those DIY mods can be brutal.

 

 

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['Scales]

Great answers from others with which I concur.

 

As someone who prefers '60 player guitars and is not concerned with it being beaten up (i.e. your resale target market), my requirements/priorities as a buyer would be:

 

1. Playability - especially must have no issues with the neck!

2. Structural integrity - has the headstock been broken? Any cracks anywhere? Fittings are soundly affixed?

3. Period correct fittings and finish - Pickups (and less so bridge) may have been changed, but are they from the period? (i.e. '60's or 50's). Original paint would be preferable.

4. Further expense - does it need a refret?

 

I think they changed the pickups in '69 and in any case it was entering a period of change/upheaval so it’s a bit tricky - anything less than very good original condition is likely to be of no interest to collectors so may be a struggle for you to do well out of it.

 

all the best with it.

[CharmedLifePcks]

Thanks for your replies, folks.

 

BigKahune: This is a '69 that has the little plate over the truss rod that says "Deluxe". They started naming it this sometime in 1969. I'm assume worst-case scenario as a late, late 1969 vintage.

 

Scales, the guitar is in rough shape cosmetically. It clearly has the original paint which is showing buckling and grazing. However, I'm like you: I have always preferred sound and playability over cosmetics.

 

I'm planning on offering the seller around $1700, with my top offer being around $2000. Without knowing the other factors about the guitar, does this seem like a sound business decision?

 

Thanks

[BigKahune]

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Without knowing more about the guitar, those price targets seem okay.

 

 

.

[quapman]

does this seem like a sound business decision?

 

Thanks

 

If you need to ask these questions to people you do not know,,, you are in the wrong business.

[pippy]

As you already are aware, it's difficult for us to offer advice re: valuation without seeing exactly what it is you are getting.

 

There were a few types of G-T at around that time but if it has a DeLuxe TRC then it probably IS a DeLuxe.

In which case the guitar, far from being a 'late version of the guitar' actually dates from the first year of production.

Some of the earliest DeLuxes came with P-90s but most have the mini-humbuckers. There doesn't seem to be much difference in the values of either type.

 

If, as you say, you are only buying this LP in order to turn a profit then originality counts for a very, very great deal as far as it's value is concerned.

Any and all swapped-out parts will de-value the guitar and some to a great extent - like halving it.

No collector is going to rate a DeLuxe high on their list in any case and if tuners; pots; p'ups; plastics and so-on are non-original no collector will be interested unless it's dirt cheap.

 

Which leaves us asking who will want to buy it?

Well, a player will.

They wouldn't really care too much about originality of the internals and accessories as long as the guitar is sound and plays like butter.

Unfortunately a player won't be expecting to offer top-dollar for such an instrument.

 

The price range you are considering offering would seem a good place to start and you should be able to turn a profit but unless everything is spot-on the profit might not be substantial.

Many factors will affect your success (or otherwise) in this venture. Do your homework - see what other early DeLuxes in a similar condition/originality have sold for on ebay.

Supply and demand. Limited supply, obviously, but is there sufficient demand?

 

P.

[CharmedLifePcks]

Pippy, thanks so much for your thorough and insightful response. This corroborates my view almost exactly.

 

Because of the physical condition of the guitar (which is not horrible: it's between fair to good -- again, sorry I don't have pics), it rules out collectors. As you said, this most likely leaves players.

 

I've gotten a whole education on these guitars in the last few weeks. If it has a one-piece neck and a one-piece body, these are the earlier versions of the Goldtop reissue (from late '68 to about mid '69), and are considered far more valuable and desired. The later ones have a three-piece neck, a laminated three-piece body (aka "pancake" body), the mini humbuckers you mentioned, a volute on the back of the neck, and other changes.

 

From a business perspective, I would certainly like to make a profit, but this is also a learning experience. If I can get in and out without getting stung I'd count it a success. I just don't want to lose my butt. Yes, as you said, so much counts on the originality of the components, and I won't know that until somebody who does know looks it over. Since I'm not an expert, I've located one of the top Gibson techs in the country who is very familiar with these guitars. He will go through it for me and tell me where we stand.

 

As you said, I've also done my due diligence on completed listings on Ebay to get an idea as to market value, supply and demand, etc.

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the chase. I bought a very clean Martin D-35 from this same seller and should be able to sell it eventually and make some scratch.

 

Thanks again, Pippy, for your time and consideration. I really appreciate it.

 

Educated Guess

[pippy]

Thanks for your reply, charmedlife.

I was hoping I didn't come across as being too pessimistic but you seem to be well-versed in how to go about the process so that's all good.

 

You are also spot-on about the 'pancake' bodies, three-piece mahogany necks and the small-volute guitars being less sought-after.

AFAIK the mid '68 (it was introduced at the NAMM show) to early '69 G-T's were called (oddly-enough) Standards and had soap-bar P-90s and at least some of these had the Crown/Holly-Leaf (?) peghead inlay normally found on the likes of an SG Standard. I think they had the Les Paul script on the TRC but don't quote me...

As 'yours' seems to have a DeLuxe TRC I will be interested to see the specs of this guitar. It might well be a transitional model with a mix of features from both!

 

I'm not sure if we have mentioned the GuitarDater Pot Code Reader site? If the pots are the originals then they can be a good indicator of an approx build-date.

Here is the link;

http://www.guitardat...codereader.aspx

 

This will tell you when the pots were manufactured.

As an example; 1376835.

This would translate as; 137 is the code for the CTS company (Chicago Telephone Supply - Gibson's regular supplier).

68 would indicate 1968.

35 would mean they were made in the 35th week of the year.

The pots would then have been shipped to Gibson where they would be in stock for a short time until they were fitted to a guitar.

Taking our 1376835 example an instrument having pots thus dated would likely have been crafted sometime in Autumn or early Winter 1968.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this one develops!

 

P.

[CharmedLifePcks]

Thanks for your reply, charmedlife.

I was hoping I didn't come across as being too pessimistic but you seem to be well-versed in how to go about the process so that's all good.

 

You are also spot-on about the 'pancake' bodies, three-piece mahogany necks and the small-volute guitars being less sought-after.

AFAIK the mid '68 (it was introduced at the NAMM show) to early '69 G-T's were called (oddly-enough) Standards and had soap-bar P-90s and at least some of these had the Crown/Holly-Leaf (?) peghead inlay normally found on the likes of an SG Standard. I think they had the Les Paul script on the TRC but don't quote me...

As 'yours' seems to have a DeLuxe TRC I will be interested to see the specs of this guitar. It might well be a transitional model with a mix of features from both!

 

I'm not sure if we have mentioned the GuitarDater Pot Code Reader site? If the pots are the originals then they can be a good indicator of an approx build-date.

Here is the link;

http://www.guitardat...codereader.aspx

 

This will tell you when the pots were manufactured.

As an example; 1376835.

This would translate as; 137 is the code for the CTS company (Chicago Telephone Supply - Gibson's regular supplier).

68 would indicate 1968.

35 would mean they were made in the 35th week of the year.

The pots would then have been shipped to Gibson where they would be in stock for a short time until they were fitted to a guitar.

Taking our 1376835 example an instrument having pots thus dated would likely have been crafted sometime in Autumn or early Winter 1968.

 

Looking forward to seeing how this one develops!

 

P.

[CharmedLifePcks]

Yes, Pippy, thanks again. I did know about the pot codes as well but forgot to mention them. That's another clue to help. But others have told me to just look for three-piece neck and body, and that will tell you what you're looking at right away.

 

The one (HUGE) variable is the originality issue, which I have no way to solve. I'm mainly an acoustic guy. But if I can buy it for the right price I'll probably take the leap. If it's the one-piece guitar (unlikely), I might offer a little more.

 

I'll keep you in the loop and try to post some pics late Wednesday if I reel it in.

 

Thanks again, my friend.

['Scales]

That all gels very well with my perspective mentioned in earlier post.

 

impossible to say what consitutes a good business deal for someone else of course as that includes your time and effort along with a bunch of other things like whether you could have better spent the money on something else..., however I'd suggest that if you got it at the price you hoped to AND it passed points 1 & 2 that I mentioned earlier then I'd expect a 50% + profit could be achievable to a player and if it passed points 3 & 4 then perhaps even more.... but who can tell.

 

on the risk side of the equation (assuming its legitimate!) and it didn't even pass on points 1 and 2, then you'd have to consider whether you'd get your money back from a luthier who wanted to fix and then keep or sell it. That seems possible provided its not dire...so maybe you'd be OK even in worst case...but again, who can tell.

 

 

Once again, all the best!

[CharmedLifePcks]

Pippy & Scales:

 

Thanks for all your input. After pursuing this guitar for a month, the seller got cold feet at the 11th hour, turned sideways and decided not to sell. I told them I was taking myself out of the running, since there were too many unanswered questions about the instrument. They will probably list it on CL. Wave bye bye.

 

I'm happy that I made a sound business decision. Let it be somebody else's problem. The instrument is in poor to fair cosmetic condition, and they have convinced themselves it's worth more than it is by looking at all the ridiculous listings on Ebay.

 

Thanks. I'll let you know if anything changes.

[Jimi Mac]

.

Also, look out for a LP Deluxe that originally had minis which were sometime routed and refitted with full size buckers - some of those DIY mods can be brutal.

 

 

.

 

Usually I concur! But I've seen both a '56 that was routed-out and I think an R6 that was routed-out and fitted with full size humbuckers that sounded utterly spectacular. While normally I consider such a mod sacrilege I was literally smitten with the tone of the two. (out of many many I've seen on Youtube)

 

Here's one: The '93 R6 that was routed and sounds heavenly!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKYep6gL_gI&list=UUaWK9rgbB5hU8SM9kv4gZjA

 

 

That guy; Mark Stow is from The UK and is the proprietor of OX4 custom pickups too...

 

The other one is an original '56 that faced that mod early in it's life/career, the guy is from France but his Youtube account has been suspended so I cannot post it, but it's tone is simply sublime...

 

I would say those are very fortunate exceptions to the rule...

[CharmedLifePcks]

Jimi Mac: Thanks for chiming in, Bud. Looks like a badass mod. Wow. Being mainly an acoustic guy, I decided to sit this one out. I imagine the owner will put it on CL and sell it quickly.

 

On the plus side, I was able to buy an absolutely pristine Martin D-35 from the same seller. If it doesn't sell I will eventually trade it for the J-45 flattop I've been craving for years. Here's some pics:

 

https://reverb.com/item/185797-martin-d-35-1969-pristine-condition

 

Thanks again, everyone.