Can I have some feedback on a Dylan cover ... plus little quiz to make it fun.

[EuroAussie]

G'day crew,

 

I know Ive not been posting much here lately but life outside the forum has been keeping me busier than I would like.

But my band still continues to rock the venues of Prague and thats keeping me happy.

 

Anyways, while my singer now also plays the drums Im looking to expand a little into the vocal area. Already do a Johnny Cash and Sex Pistols cover (country version of Pretty Vacant) and wanted to add a couple picky numbers.

 

It was suggested Id give Dylan's Dont Think Twice a go, so I had a bit of run with it today.

 

Its still very much a work in progress both on guitar but mainly on vocals, and I would love to get some feedback on how to make it better.

 

As i hear it my timing and phrasing is quite inconsistent, sounds good in parts and then it sounds like the timing of the guitar and voice is not matched, and hence the groove is missing.

 

What do you guys think, whats the main things to work on here ?

 

Oh, and the quiz..... to make a it a bit fun, what guitar am I using here ?

 

Ill make it easier by getting it down to three options:

 

1) Gibson Advance Jumbo

2) Martin J-40

3) Gibson LG-2

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/euroaussie/dont-think-twice

 

cheers,

EA

[duluthdan]

This is not performance ready, trust me. Too much sustain in the guitar to be your short-scale LG-2.

[Buc McMaster]

Two things strike me: enunciation and pitch. I hear you singing single syllable words as two.......dawn and gone in the first verse as examples. Fine to stretch single syllables vocally, but turning them into two is a tricky business. It is doable and can be effective in the right spot with the right song but in this case, Dylan melodies are quite simple and lend themselves best to simple enunciations. I also hear two or three instances where you cut the last word of a line short, leaving the word pretty much unspoken. When singing, exaggerated enunciation produces much clearer vocals.

 

Pitch is a tough one. Some folks are born with it, others (like myself) have to work to get it. More than anything else, being on pitch when singing is mucho importanto. And, being honest, you're all over the place in this one. Stand facing a wall, strum the single chord of your choice and sing an "ahhhhhhhh" on pitch with the chord.......do it a thousand times. Change the chord and do it another thousand. Focus on hitting the correct pitch first, then work to hold that tone as smoothly as possible. Tighten your abdominals and push the tone from your diaphragm, not from your throat. You need not sing a song or even a particular word for this exercise........sing "ahhhhhhh" and "ohhhhhhh" will train the muscles that work the vocal cords just fine. You'll definitely hear your pitch improve if you focus on this aspect of singing as opposed to trying to learn a melody, a page of lyrics and guitar part all at once. Just like you have focused on teaching yourself to fingerpick (quite well, I may add), turn that same focus on getting a handle on your vocal pitch. Some folks are born to sing. I honestly believe the rest of us can learn if we're willing to put in the time and effort. No, we won't all be Sinatras, Martins or Presleys, but with effort we can learn to sing! I sincerely hope you take this in the spirit it is intended, Mark........an honest evaluation of the performance from my perspective. Sing those "ahhhs" and "ohhhs" with focus, really listening to yourself............it can be done.

 

EDIT: As an example of exaggerated enunciation, listen to how many of the words in this vocal are "followed thru on". Making sure to hit consonants at the end of words makes them distinct when singing. Really rounding out vowels really helps clarify a vocal......

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4wLvZ37pTg

[EuroAussie]

Great feedback Buc, and yes, the pitch issue, I really struggle to crack this. Maybe Ill stand against the wall and try what you mentioned. If that doesnt work Ill bang my head against that wall a bit more. Wish I had a bit more time in the day to focus on vocals, might have to put the guitar down for a while and focus on this aspect.

 

Thanks again.

 

Two things strike me: enunciation and pitch. I hear you singing single syllable words as two.......dawn and gone in the first verse as examples. Fine to stretch single syllables vocally, but turning them into two is a tricky business. It is doable and can be effective in the right spot with the right song but in this case, Dylan melodies are quite simple and lend themselves best to simple enunciations. I also hear two or three instances where you cut the last word of a line short, leaving the word pretty much unspoken. When singing, exaggerated enunciation produces much clearer vocals.

 

Pitch is a tough one. Some folks are born with it, others (like myself) have to work to get it. More than anything else, being on pitch when singing is mucho importanto. And, being honest, you're all over the place in this one. Stand facing a wall, strum the single chord of your choice and sing an "ahhhhhhhh" on pitch with the chord.......do it a thousand times. Change the chord and do it another thousand. Focus on hitting the correct pitch first, then work to hold that tone as smoothly as possible. Tighten your abdominals and push the tone from your diaphragm, not from your throat. You need not sing a song or even a particular word for this exercise........sing "ahhhhhhh" and "ohhhhhhh" will train the muscles that work the vocal cords just fine. You'll definitely hear your pitch improve if you focus on this aspect of singing as opposed to trying to learn a melody, a page of lyrics and guitar part all at once. Just like you have focused on teaching yourself to fingerpick (quite well, I may add), turn that same focus on getting a handle on your vocal pitch. Some folks are born to sing. I honestly believe the rest of us can learn if we're willing to put in the time and effort. No, we won't all be Sinatras, Martins or Presleys, but with effort we can learn to sing! I sincerely hope you take this in the spirit it is intended, Mark........an honest evaluation of the performance from my perspective. Sing those "ahhhs" and "ohhhs" with focus, really listening to yourself............it can be done.

[E-minor7]

Sir, , , we have good and bad news for you.

 

The first is that you have moved forward - the latter is you haven't moved enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the guitar I didn't go in the cans, but vote little G from the l-top speakers.

[62burst]

Old LG-2, capo 4 (making it further harder to tell the diff).

 

Hello friend-

The feeling is there. I remember your posting a photo log of a little day trip you had out to the hills to give the LG-2 some fresh air. Could you scare up a link to that fine day? It would give some perspective on your take on this Dylan tune, which, to many, is some fairly hallowed ground to be covering.

 

Buc- I usually don't listen to the uke performances, but in this instance, you make your point, & bring a smile to the face ; ) .

 

EA; thank you for reaching out for input, and for sharing where you are with this...

 

edit: Dylan never was much of a stickler for perfection (the tuning, or lack thereof, of the guitar on some of the more iconic recordings is astounding) , and if anything, Zimmy enjoyed giving the finger to being critical in that regard. However, he had an uncanny knack at being (imho) able to drop the melody (vocals) in just before/after the beat, enough to create a little tension and interest. But he is a master at this.

[Smurfbird]

For pitch issues, you should see if your pitch improves when you wear headphones and put the vocals louder in the mix. Often, when you can better hear yourself, you will naturally sing closer to perfect. Much talent here, though.

[Dave F]

EA, I'm the last one that should be giving singing advice, believe me, but with your voice I think I would try to talk this song not sing it.

 

I'll guess the Martin J40 for the guitar

 

 

 

[MorrisrownSal]

I think it's your LG2.

Regarding the vocals, you have received advice from the best singer I have heard in years... Buc.

I'll add in my 2cents anyhow. Speed up the song a hair. Get the guitar perfect, with that alternating thumb keeping rhythm like James Brown. Record the track. Sing a second track over it.... I use GarageBand on an iPad. Play it back. Create a third track singing again, this time muting the second track. Which one is better? Delete the other track. Do It again. And again. And again.

I am a weak singer; the good news is that people don't fret about having paid to hear me sing :) I do a few open mics, and that's about it nowadays. But I love to sing, so don't you give up. It's a great feeling. But get the guitar down first, and then the vocals, and then let muscle memory kick in when you do it all together.

GarageBand has helped my progress from my being a background singer on easy tunes, to me starting to be passable. I highly recommend it as a tool for practicing and hearing yourself right back.

[vacamartin]

J-40...capo 4.B)

[E-minor7]

I am a weak singer;

No, you're not (as I hear it). But there is a certain frail dimension to your sound that makes the stuff quite 'real', if you know what I mean.

And though there might be a hint of early Neil Y., it's definitely your own brand.

If I happened to go through the doors to a bar where you were singing, I would sit down a have a couple of beers. .

 

 

 

 

 

[flatbaroque]

Good on ya EA for having a go...some good advice from others already....can't add much...guitar sounds real good..i'll go the Martin too..more sustain than my LG-2.

I think recording a separate vocal track could be a help as already mentioned...allowing maximum concentration on the vox.

 

And at least you didn't drive Em7 to drink like Sal did !

"If I happened to go through the doors to a bar where you were singing, I would sit down a have a couple of beers". .

[BluesKing777]

Martin with capo seems to be the consensus.

 

I listened on my iPad, so....can't really tell.

 

The guitar fingerpicking sound to me shows how far you have come, and to sing as well as fingerpick!

 

Very well done.

 

I am another blessed with the crappiest voice, but I have been singing and playing since Noah and unfortunately for the earlier audiences, someone gave me a mic! Not fair that I have learned to sing in tune since, but....No mic!

 

So, another approach....

 

Singing confidence to match the picking confidence.......

 

 

To marry up the guitaring with the sanging - 2 different things - good advice above, but another way is to try to find your voice without the guitar and the absolute best way in the modern age is to sing songs you know in all their glory in.....yep....the CAR. Wife, friends, next door will thank me while you improve away from an audience.

Start carefully, small amounts, then try and get a bit of range from Elvis low to Bowie high, say. Do this until they see sense and take your license off you.

 

Then after a few weeks of screeching on little journeys, get a fixed song list and take a long drive... DONT OVERDO it, and watch the ROAD!

 

Next, add capo at home to guitar. Remember your best singing in the car and put the capo on various spots and chords and try some options to sing the same with guitar..this can actually take a real long while.

 

 

Simpler the song, quicker the result.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[fretplay]

Lots of good advice hear but Don't think Twice is not that easy a song.

 

Dylan has a vast catalogue of songs and the ones with a message go down best with audiences. You say you do Johnny Cash, I know he did Dylan's I threw it all Away easier to sing and full of feeling! Perhaps you could give it a try, good luck.

[MissouriPicker]

I'll guess the J40. On the rest of it, it sounds to me like your trying to sing it like Dylan: in that kind of nasal-monotone that Dylan typically sings in. I think you should sing it like "you." Also, too long of a song for the same thing over and over. I know Dylan did it that way, but he's Dylan. Plus, the best renditions of this song (in my view) were done by others with different arrangements. Peter, Paul & Mary had the huge hit with it (sweet guitar picking and great blending of vocals). Cash did his Cash thing to it and had his whole band. I'd like to hear it with the rest of your band behind you.

[E-minor7]

 

And at least you didn't drive Em7 to drink like Sal did !

"If I happened to go through the doors to a bar where you were singing, I would sit down a have a couple of beers". .

 

Hehi he, , , still gigling here.

[E-minor7]

Lots of good advice hear but Don't think Twice is not that easy a song.

 

Agree - there are serious series of words that demand both timing and generel strong over-view.

Goin' for an easier tune is a good idea - there's no shame whatsoever in singing simple even childrens songs. Car Car by Guthrie fx, , , that kind of stuff.

In fact just the opposite if they can be lifted with dignity.

From a learning perspective, singing a simple song offers oppotunity to form every phrase like you are working with clay, which is what you do anyway.

But, , , the simple song is the kind of tripod that really allows you to see what cloths you hang on - shapes, colors and if they have any holes. .

 

(One metaphor too many there - )

[EuroAussie]

Ive really enjoyed the feedback here folks.

 

I appreciate the balance of tough love but also really good, practical advice. It means you want me to get better and believe there is potential. I rate that and really glad to be receiving genuine and beneficial advice.

 

Truth be told I didnt really learn this song well enough, in fact I only learned the last two verses on the day. I focused more on getting the pickin' pattern right rather than the vocals.

 

When listening to Dylans vocals they sound deceptively simple, but thats probably the trick .. in making them sound simple, yet melodic, but thats what good artists do well, make the tricky look or sound simple.

 

I will crack this song, sooner rather than later but definitely need to work on it, and also try to make it more my own as Larry suggested.

 

I will take your advice on board and work on it, do another recording when the time is right, most likely seperate the voals from the guitar in the mix.

 

So, big thanks to you all, tough buggers.

 

And the guitar, actually, it was the ..................Advanced Jumbo.

 

The J-40 sounded really good recorded (its a great, great picker) but the recording sounded just a tad bit better with the AJ which is what I presented here in the end.

 

cheers,

EA

[E-minor7]

Truth be told I didnt really learn this song well enough, in fact I only learned the last two verses on the day.

 

Please play us a song you know - would you want to see me juggle with cones if I had taken it up last week. .

 

 

 

 

[EuroAussie]

I would love to see you juggle with cones Em7 .... while strumming a Hummingbird.

 

 

Please play us a song you know - would you want to see me juggle with cones if I had taken it up last week. .

[E-minor7]

I would love to see you juggle with cones Em7 ....

 

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[MorrisrownSal]

EA - make no mistake - I have seen your band videos. You guys are great. You are gracious in accepting the tough love, which you asked for, but I have no doubt you are more skilled than I am, which is why everyone here is telling you not to give up, but to try a few things. You have a great attitude and courage, and it takes a real thick skin to throw this out there like you did.

 

Tip of the hat.

[BluesKing777]

Yep, you just need to keep doing it, and a few live gigs hurry the process, even if you do say, 3 tunes...

 

 

BluesKing777.

[onewilyfool]

EA…..every song has an inherent heart beat……I don't know if this interests you, but try playing with a metronome…….it is REALLY a good discipline……this song technically needs work, but if you can get the tempo down…..the words and fingering will come naturally…..It is something I struggle with too. My other guitar playing buddy and I came to the conclusion, that to get a song performance ready, you need 100 repetitions. Words, chords, finger style, embellishments, and vocals….100 reps…..I'm doing "To make you feel my love" another Dylan song….and it took 100 reps or more…lol….keep plucking'!

[fretplay]

Agree - there are serious series of words that demand both timing and generel strong over-view.

Goin' for an easier tune is a good idea - there's no shame whatsoever in singing simple even childrens songs. Car Car by Guthrie fx, , , that kind of stuff.

In fact just the opposite if they can be lifted with dignity.

From a learning perspective, singing a simple song offers oppotunity to form every phrase like you are working with clay, which is what you do anyway.

But, , , the simple song is the kind of tripod that really allows you to see what cloths you hang on - shapes, colors and if they have any holes. .

 

(One metaphor too many there - )

 

Like most things there are horses for courses so when you are singing in a band at home its different from singing in a bar or an outdoor stadium.

 

Take Bruce Springsteen in Hyde Park last year, if that were recorded and put out as an album it would be a no hoper. His voice trails away and he does the odd strum on his guitar when he feels like it but he is backed by at lot of noise both on and off the stage. So the venue plays a large part too.

 

Recording yourself solo is just about as tough as it gets but of course it does show you where you are going wrong.