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1934 Custom L5 Super 400?


Mysterious G

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This is my Grandfathers guitar and I have been trying to research it, without much success. A photo inquiry to Gibson provided me with the reply that it "is consistent with an L5 and would have been custom ordered at the dealer" and that it would have been "produced and shipped to the dealer" in 1934. That is curious to me because the guitar is 18" across and the tailpiece is engraved SUPER 400.

 

Anyone have thoughts, can it be both an L5 AND a Super 400?

 

Here is a link to the photo's:

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=12032958026/a=19101713026_19101713026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

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It appears that I have to register at Snapfish in order to view your photos. I'd prefer not to do that, although I'm interested in seeing them and trying to help. Could you perhaps post them here using the individual links at Snapfish?

 

Anyway, your description sounds familiar. I think I may have seen (not in person) or heard about something similar in the past.

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It appears that I have to register at Snapfish in order to view your photos. I'd prefer not to do that, although I'm interested in seeing them and trying to help. Could you perhaps post them here using the individual links at Snapfish?

 

Anyway, your description sounds familiar. I think I may have seen (not in person) or heard about something similar in the past.

 

+1 [thumbup]

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By coincidence I was recently at Elderly and they have what they're calling a 1935 L5 Super 400 - listed at $35K - http://elderly.com/items/45U-1072.htm . A pic shows the heal is engraved with 'Super "400"'

 

From the description - "... the label says "Deluxe" at the top and "L-5" for the model, truss rod cover is engraved "Super L-5", very fine example of the Super 400 ... engraved tailpiece with 3 cutouts (original - later production models were engraved "Super 400") ..."

 

45U-1072_front.jpg . 45U-1072_body-front.jpg

 

45U-1072_heel.jpg

 

45U-1072_truss-rod-cover.jpg

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I am really struggling adding photo's in here. I keep getting messages that the files are too big to upload. I was finally able to get three attached to my previous reply but only one appeared in the message and now I can't attach any to this reply. How did you get those pictures in your message?

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Thanks Mysterious G. First of all, you should know that your instrument was either a custom order (which would make it very unusual), or it has been modified (which is not good in terms of collectibility and value).

 

I think we can get to the bottom of this, but it would help (a lot) if you could post all of your photos here.

 

For starters, your tailpiece is of a later type than would have been available in 1934 or 1935. As you can see in the photos that Big Kahune posted of the guitar at Elderly Instruments, the early Super 400 tailpieces were different in design than yours. So, we know right off the bat that if your instrument dates to those early years, then it has already been modified to some extent. The fact that you have a natural finish on the front and a sunburst finish on the back makes it highly likely that the top was refinished (not a good thing).

 

I hope you can post all of your photos here, so that we can really examine things in detail. Thanks.

 

No matter how this turns out, that is one COOL thing to have received from your grandfather. :)

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I am really struggling adding photo's in here. I keep getting messages that the files are too big to upload. I was finally able to get three attached to my previous reply but only one appeared in the message and now I can't attach any to this reply. How did you get those pictures in your message?

You want to post them using direct individual url links from their locations at snapfish. Use the "insert image" button (the square one, two to the right of the yellow smiley face), and enter each url.

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I can add (and you may already know this) that your headstock inlay ("flowerpot"), fretboard inlay (blocks), and pickguard are all consistent with an L5, and not a Super 400. If the lower bout measurement is really 18", then we have a more confusing puzzle.

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Just continuing to comment as I notice more things...

 

The size/shape of your f-holes (and since they appear to be unbound) are consistent with a 1930's L5, and not a Super 400.

 

In the full frontal photo, I see what appears to be a seam in the top, toward the outer edge. I suspect that this would have been hidden under the dark stain of an original sunburst finish.

 

Is there no label inside the guitar?

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What a fantastic legacy gift.

 

I'm on the same path as Jim. Looks like an L-5 that was possibly modified at some point in it's history. Does the TRC (truss rod cover) have any writing on it?

 

BTW, here's the 1934 specs for the Super 400 courtesy of Provide Net: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson2.html#l5 . (scroll down a ways)

1934 Super 400 introduction specs:

18" wide, X-braced top, figured maple back and sides, adjustable bridge with triangular inlay at each end, tailpiece with "Y" shaped center and model name on crosspiece, 7 ply top binding, triple bound back and F-holes, brown pearloid pickguard with 5 ply binding, pointed end ebony fingerboard, single and double split-block fingerboard inlays, 5 ply peghead binding, 5 piece split diamond peghead inlay, 3 piece split-diamond inlay on back of peghead, model name on heel cap, engraved open-back Grover tuners, gold plated parts, Cremona brown sunburst finish.

 

 

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When I look at something like this, it usually becomes evident that there are virtually no limits to modifications. Once you notice one or two, red flags begin to go up. We really don't even know whether this neck and this body began life together (I'm curious about that, because everything about the neck (aside from the truss rod cover, which is easily changed) points to L5, while an 18" body points to a Super 4.

 

This Super 400 tailpiece is post-WWII (1947 or later).

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An interesting puzzle. . B)

 

 

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My favorite kind of thread. :)

 

I keep examining the shape of the f-holes on this guitar, and comparing them to photos of vintage Gibsons, and I can't quite convince myself that this top was made by Gibson. Perhaps a 1930's Super 4 was seriously damaged, and the top was replaced, as well as the neck...?

 

The "Gibson" inlay on the headstock would suggest that the L5 neck is at least pre-war. Would like to see closer photos if possible (if you need more help regarding photos, let us know).

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Mysterious G, if you open each of your snapfish photos in their own window, they will each have a url, like "http://snapfish.com/photos/GibsonGuitar/1.jpg". If you take each of those url's, and insert them here between the tags "[ img ]" and "[ /img ]" (with no spaces inside the brackets, or anywhere in the url), they should appear here.

 

Like this, but with no spaces inside the brackets: [ img ]http://snapfish.com/photos/GibsonGuitar/1.jpg[ /img ]

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Looks like you posted links to the thumbnail versions of your photos. I think you should be able to post them full size (let me know if you need help). :) Meanwhile, I'll try to examine these small images...

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It's encouraging to see "special" on the paper label, although there's still some vagueness about that.

 

Big Kahune asked about the truss rod cover. That's the plastic thing on the headstock with the white diagonal line across it. Does it say anything inside that white line?

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Very interesting. From what I can see, it looks like it may have indeed begun as a special order L5 with an 18" body. As I said, the truss rod cover (Super 400 type) and tailpiece (Super 400 type, obviously, but a later version) are things that are easily changed. Who knows what t.r.c. and tailpiece were on it originally, but they may have been the L5 type, even though the body was the Super 400 size. It's like this was someone's fantasy of a combination of features from the two models. I can relate to that, as I've had similar dreams over the years, and have seen a few unusual custom orders in my years as a vintage Gibson enthusiast.

 

I would have to do some more research which I don't have time for right now, but the "Gibson" pearl head inlay looks to be pre-war (possibly 1930's). The Grover Imperial tuners are of the original 1930's type, and it appears that they could be original.

 

The heel cap (white plastic at the base of the heel) looks to be shaped like those found on the early Super 400's. That's another thing that could be researched in more detail, if one were curious enough.

 

The overall body shape is that of an early (pre-1937) Super 400 (narrower upper bout width than ones built after '37.

 

Your bridge (if both pieces started life together) appears to be of the type used on the second version of the Super 400. It has the triangular pearl inlays on the bridge base, but appears to lack the longer triangular pearl inlays which were used on the bridge saddle (the piece that the strings rest on) of the first (1934-36) version of the Super 400. Because of what I just said about the body type and the bridge type, one might conclude that the guitar dates to late '36 or early '37 (if this bridge is original to the guitar). This is just an educated guess, though.

 

As I said above, the top appears to have been spliced, which is not all that unusual or rare on instruments that are slated to receive a dark sunburst finish which will hide the seam toward the outer edge of the lower bout. It's interesting that this one was refinished (I assume) natural rather than sunburst (to match the back and sides, and to hide the seam).

 

Taking everything into consideration, right now I'm leaning toward the idea that this was an L5 special-ordered with a 400 body, probably around 1936-37. It was probably refinished many years ago, and the tailpiece was changed.

 

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know, but at least I've given you some ideas.

 

If you really want to make the best possible effort to solve this puzzle, you could contact an expert like George Gruhn (Gruhn Guitars in Nashville TN). There would be a fee of course, but I don't think it would be very much (perhaps $50 or so). You could just e-mail him your photos, but I would recommend getting somebody to take even better photos. :)

 

Edit: Oops, duh... I forgot to ask you if you can read the entire serial number on the label. I can't make out the whole number. This would of course help to date the guitar (I sometimes like to try to figure that out by looking at features, just because I enjoy that ;)).

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The entire serial number is 91700, I believe. The first digit is faded, but I'm almost positive that it is a 9. It also does say style L 5, which seems odd since the body is 18", but I guess if it's custom you can have anything you want.

 

My grandfather worked for Gibson in Kalamazoo, he was also a very talented local musician. The story that we were always told was that he received the guitar as a prototype. I can't validate that as I never had a conversation with him about it myself. I'm sure Gibson would have kept some type of record if that were the case though.

 

Thank you so much JimR56 and BigKahune, I really appreciate your time and interest in my puzzle !

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... My grandfather worked for Gibson in Kalamazoo... The story that we were always told was that he received the guitar as a prototype. ...

 

Whoa! . Your grandfather worked for Gibson! . Anything is possible!! . In the factory employees are known to have made all kinds of things mashed together with spare parts. I've seen some unusual combinations. After reading your grandfather worked for Gibson, it's totally believable that this came out in 1934 as either a "Special", prototype, or a mashup from an "insider" working in the factory - possibly your grandfather(?). The trapeze could have been added later. And maybe there was a refinish in it's history too.

 

Very cool, but probably not so much value-wise.

 

 

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