wonderful remark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I finally bit the bullet and bought a 2003 sj200 from 12fret in Toronto. http://www.12fret.com/content/2014/04/14/2003-gibson-sj-200-standard/ Because I live +4000km away, I had to rely on their descriptions and a bunch of questions which one of the question was, "are there any finish checking/cracks?" And they said "absolutely no finish checks". By now you should see where this thread is going. When I received the guitar, the sides are full of finish checks, the back has a few and the top has one big one and a few more near the bridge. I have contacted 12fret, and their response was "sorry and we will make it up with future purchases". I can't believe their response was such as that, had it happened on a forum sale thread, this would be a huge deal violating a bunch of "unwritten" rules... Gah I am so frustrated to have spend nearly $3k on a guitar with these flaws. They expect me to make more purchases when they lied to me? Buyer beware. No "if the guitar sounds good why should it matter?" type of replies please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Yeah but what does it sound like? The instrument is 11 years old. To expect no flaws is unrealistic. Of course, when you specified "no finish checking" they should have checked for checking, check? Check. Still, I would play it first before worrying about finish checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 But what does it sound like 'is' the right question. Get your prorities right mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderful remark Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 It's not really about the sound at this point. If you were buying an instruments from a reputable dealer, you should be able to trust the dealers words, no? I do expect the guitar to show its age. However, I believed their words regarding the condition of the guitar and paid for the guitar without a flaw. If this guitar had a single finish check, I would just bite the bullet and move on, but like I've said the sides are FULL OF CHECKS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Remark….what is their return policy? Look, you can be a real thorn in their side, hit them on Facebook, Twitter, Yelp..or whatever the Canadian equivalent is…and tell your story. Give them a scathing review about non-disclosure of the checking, and reveal their rather empty compensation settlement. If they are worth their salt, they will compensate you somehow…otherwise spend the100 bucks in shipping and return it and learn this lesson….try before buy, play before pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Can you make a few pics, would be easier to understand the issue for the rest of us. Still, what does it sound like? The early 2000´s were the goldden era of montana J-200´s in my book. Each and every from that era that i played sounded heavenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly campbell Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I am with you on this I would be disappointed as well, no matter if it sounded great or not however since sound is the key I may grow to love it...sorry this happened to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerohead Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Send it back if you didn't get what you paid for! If you paid for no checking why would you feel obligated to accept any less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Remark….what is their return policy? Look, you can be a real thorn in their side, hit them on Facebook, Twitter, Yelp..or whatever the Canadian equivalent is…and tell your story. Give them a scathing review about non-disclosure of the checking, and reveal their rather empty compensation settlement. If they are worth their salt, they will compensate you somehow…otherwise spend the100 bucks in shipping and return it and learn this lesson….try before buy, play before pay. nae nae nae and again nae. Internet slating is a surge. I'm against anyone using this latest , chicken sh1t method of leverage. It solves nothing and is deeply unfair to people. For what it's worth , after specifically asking for 'no checking' , then their attitude leaves a lot to be desired and I too would be peeved. personally I don't mind checking or any minor blemishes , but I do mind not getting what I asked for . especially if I'm handing over a lot of wadge. If it sounds and plays great I'd talk over some sort of deal. and if you're gonna hate the checking then send it back and start the search all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe M Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Jeff, I would be pissed also, since you specifically asked about checking, regardless of how the guitar sounds. Just ain't right..... I'm curious, what kind of case came with the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 If it were me it would be going back at their cost and if they fight it I would file a claim with my bank or paypal , whatever you used. I would send a polite, calm email explaining my case first with my intent and see if I get a response. I agree with many here that if it plays and sounds good you may want to consider keeping it but I would still go through the exercise A mint guitar is probably worth what you paid but what you described is just a used guitar and should be priced accordingly. Send it back for a full refund or get compensated at least $600. Just my opinion. I've had a few incidents like this and got them all resolved in my favor Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbo82 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Looks like on their website they have a 48 hour approval period, however you must prearrange for that deal before purchasing the guitar. Otherwise all sales are final. Seems kinda lame...I wouldn't be bothered by checking, but that's not the point here. If the checking bothers you I would make some phone calls and raise a stink with them and depending how displeased you are OVERALL with the guitar either negotiate a full return or partial refund to make the price fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I'm with you all the way about full disclosure by the seller, BUT...When I first got my J-50 I inquired here about how long it would be before I saw some checking. Some were seemingly offended that I expected it to happen and went off about what I was asking, presuming I was somehow slighting Gibson and their quality control. Nothing could be further from the truth. I actually prefer the look of an old Gibson, especially one with finish checking. Besides, I think it is the nature of nitrocellulose unless the guitar is kept in a strictly controlled environment. Bars and houses generally aren't that strictly controlled nor do I want them to be (it kinda kills the fun, you know). So, I think I'd play that J200 a bunch and see if the sound appeals to you enough to overcome the cosmetic thing. I mean, wow, you got a J200! I'd be stoked to have a great sounding one in my collection no matter the looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Add another vote towards either playing it and seeing if you like the sound and then negotiating a price that is more in line for a J-200 in its condition or demanding to return it on their dime for it not being what was advertised. Let us know how it proceeds. No one should be forced to accept something that is not as it was represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 that sounds good….AND, don't talk to the salesman, talk to the owner or manager. Do you have an email paper trail of when you asked them if it was free from checking…..as an aside….my friend collects vintage guitars and when a guitar has that checking, he told me it was MORE valuable….and a lot of folks swear that the checking lets the top vibrate better for a better sound??? Who knows….I'm in the camp that it wouldn't bother me, AND in the camp that because they didn't disclose the finish problems, THEY are in the wrong and need to compensate you. AND, if you told this story without prejudice and evenly tempered on any of the social media websites, just the facts as you have them, without flaming them, I do believe they would respond to you about compensation in a much less cavalier way, knowing that this type of attitude will be displayed on social media. I truly believe that the sellers are in the wrong here……based on the information you have presented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I finally bit the bullet and bought a 2003 sj200 from 12fret in Toronto. http://www.12fret.com/content/2014/04/14/2003-gibson-sj-200-standard/ Because I live +4000km away, I had to rely on their descriptions and a bunch of questions which one of the question was, "are there any finish checking/cracks?" And they said "absolutely no finish checks". By now you should see where this thread is going. When I received the guitar, the sides are full of finish checks, the back has a few and the top has one big one and a few more near the bridge. I have contacted 12fret, and their response was "sorry and we will make it up with future purchases". I can't believe their response was such as that, had it happened on a forum sale thread, this would be a huge deal violating a bunch of "unwritten" rules... Gah I am so frustrated to have spend nearly $3k on a guitar with these flaws. They expect me to make more purchases when they lied to me? Buyer beware. No "if the guitar sounds good why should it matter?" type of replies please. Sorry to hear that. I live in the GTA, I would've gladly checked out the guitar for you. One thing with 12Fret is most of their older (used) guitars have been worked in. It would be very hard to find one in pristine condition. If you like that relic look that's the place to go. I personally find most of their older guitars are overpriced.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 From everything I have heard, 12th fret has a pretty good reputation. Hard for me to relate as I have never bought a guitar for any kind of money that I had not held in my sweaty little hands first. I know exactly what I am getting and if it should turn out not to be I have only myself to blame. Finish checking is not a flaw but a part of the natural aging process. How quick it shows up depends on what kind of finish was appplied, how thick it is and what kind of life the guitar had. If you like the way the guitar feels and sound consider yourself lucky and be happy. If the finish checking bothers you that much then return the thing and start the hunt over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-200 Koa Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Whether or not the guitar sounds good is irrelevant to this discussion. The buyer specifically asked if there was any checking. The seller said no. If there is checking, the seller misrepresented the guitar and should refund all the buyers money plus return shipping. Hopefully, the guitar was purchased with a credit card. Most credit card companies have some sort of buyer protection where the charges can be reversed if the merchandise was not as described. Check your card provider for their policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm not going to argue one side or the other as I've already mentioned sound is paramount for me personally. However, the 12th Fret in Toronto is one of the best purveyors of fine instruments certainly in Canada and I would argue North America. I know this from personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Jeff, I've got a 10 year old SJ200. Zero finish checking. Was gigged first year of it's life and kept in a house otherwise. You had every right to expect this 'reputable' company to inspect the guitar before they listed it AND before they shipped it. You were clear that you didn't want any finish checking. This was not an 'unreasonable' specification. Most people spending $3K want the guitar to look as good as possible - which means, among other things no finish checking. Funny, how you got ignored by 12 Fret. Then here, requested any who commented not tell you that 'how does it sound?' is the most important thing." Dissed again! If I go to a dealer to buy a new Cadillac and specify the color black - and a week later go to pick it up and it's red - I would demand my money back. If he said "But how does it drive?" I'd laugh in his face and ask for the manager. Of course it's going to drive good - you researched what make and model you wanted, and it's a Caddy. You were confident this guitar (an iconic Gibson from a great era) would sound good. You were paying for that, AND for it not to have checking. If you had been there in person - you would have laughed and walked out before paying. Also amusing - you got the cliche response - 'Play it before you Pay for it." I guess the distance factor was glossed over, along with your request that you not be told 'how does it sound' ? Maybe the salesman thinks you are crazy and maybe he charged you more for, what some here think is a great thing. Maybe he charged you Less - who knows? The point is, you were clear that you did not want finish checking and they lied to you. Maybe there are a dozen forum members here who've done business with 12th Fret and not been screwed, but that is not any more relevant than whether checking is 'desirable'. Credit Card companies have departments that will guide you through the process of negotiating a return. Take good, clear pictures of all the checking. Don't return it until directed to. After talking to the CC company, call back 12th Fret and tell them you are ready to initiate return procedures but want to give them one last chance to honor their commitment. You may have to get a couple of people in your town, either music stores, musicians or guitar technicians - to inspect and verify what you say is checking, and provide written confirmation. If that isn't possible - the CC company may accept good photos. For some of us, purchases like this are once in a lifetime events and we need to be happy with what we get. Even if it includes a killer case. G'Luck. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torca Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 As I oftened dealt with the 12th Fret,I'm very surprised you were not told of checking. Any piece I've ever sold there was minutely scrutinized for flaws, imperfections ect,sometimes to the point that I felt they were trying to drive down selling/consignment price. I actually took a J-200 down to Folkways to sell after having a small finish crack(1/4") along maple/walnut neck seam that was going to be described as a small crack possibly. Recently sold a TV Hummingbird there that had some lacquer lift at tuner bushings,and they pictured and described as such. Knowing you asked about checking, I would be asking for some kind of consideration.Unless the owner agrees to a price break, it likely would have to be sent back if the Fret wouldn't move monetarily to keep you satisfied,and rightly so on your expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Any update on the situation? Any pictures of the checking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderful remark Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 I'll get some pictures over the weekend. At this point, I'm not going to take any further actions. Am I upset that I've overpaid enormously for a guitar that has been misrepresented? HELL YES. But dealing with a shop +4000km away over emails(one email each per day) is getting really tiring. Due to my job(logger, 12hr days), I'm not near a phone or computer during their business hours. Lesson learned the expensive way. I do agree, 12fret is one of the most reputable shops in Canada and I've had some good dealings with them previously(previous owner). I had found another SJ-200 from the same era for a few hundred dollars cheaper and it had finish checkings on it. But I chose this SJ-200 at 12fret and paid a higher price because they assured me there was no finish checkings. Thus, why I was so upset to have spent more money on a worse conditioned guitar. Sorry if my posts got too emotional. Thanks everyone for your support and advice. I may just have to go buy another guitar to cope with this situation ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 For whatever reason... sounds like this guitar chose you. Here's to a long and happy gig together ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yggdrasil Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I do agree, 12fret is one of the most reputable shops in Canada and I've had some good dealings with them previously(previous owner). The ownership hasn't changed - Grant still owns & runs the Fret on a day to day basis - very hands on; his partner David Wren left a few years ago, but the Fret has not changed ownership. I'd be very surprised if Grant didn't rectify any situation gone wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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