Tuning problems with a capo

[BrianUK]

I have a couple of songs in the band that require me to use a capo on my 2013 59 Custom RI. Everytime I put the thing on I have to retune which is a royal PITA. I am kinda disappointed that a new Custom LP that cost over $6000 should have this problem? Is it normal and what can I do about it? Tnx.

[Twang Gang]

If the guitar normally stays in tune pretty well - especially as you move up the neck perhaps it is the capo itself that isn't doing a very good job of choking off the strings equally. If the neck is straight and even going up the neck it doesn't seem right that using a capo would through it out of tune that much, but having to retune with capo use is not that unusual. Not sure of the physics of why this happens, but it's not uncommon.

[BrianUK]

Thanks for the reply. I am going to double check each string from the nut upwards with my tuner to see if they are in tune or not. I've got a suspicion that my low E string has a problem as when I play Mr Brightside the 15th fret G is always flat and I have to remember to nudge the tuning peg before I start. I hope its not the neck that's out :(

[L5Larry]

Starting at the 1:00 mark, Tommy gives a really good capo use tutorial and explanation.

 

[BrianUK]

Starting at the 1:00 mark, Tommy gives a really good capo use tutorial and explanation.

 

 

Excellent clip. I just learnt a whole lot! Thanks. Gonna give it another shot with my new found wisdom.

[AndyK]

Putting a capo on a guitar effectively changes its scale length, and therefore intonation. This would be even more noticeable on a short scale length guitar, like a Les Paul. It's nothing to do with the quality or otherwise of the guitar. I use capos very very rarely for this reason. People like Keith Richards who use capos all the time do not change them - the capo stays on the guitar at fret N and the guitar is tuned perfectly to that. If KR wants a different key/tuning, he picks up a different guitar.

[BrianUK]

If the guitar normally stays in tune pretty well - especially as you move up the neck perhaps it is the capo itself that isn't doing a very good job of choking off the strings equally. If the neck is straight and even going up the neck it doesn't seem right that using a capo would through it out of tune that much, but having to retune with capo use is not that unusual. Not sure of the physics of why this happens, but it's not uncommon.

OK. I've tried each string with a tuner and the results are below. I hope this makes some sense to someone as I can't make sense of it.

 

Bottom E:

1st fret, sharp (by 1 1/2 lights). 2nd fret # by 1 light. 3rd fret perfect. 4th fret flat by one light. 5,6,7,8 all flat by 1 light, all frets from this point are flat by 2 lights.

 

A string:

1st fret sharp by 1 light. 2-4 are perfect, 6th fret upwards, flat by 1 light

 

D string: all perfect.

 

G string: 1st fret sharp by 1 1/2 lights. Frets 2,3 sharp by 1/2 light. frets 4 - 10 just about perfect. 12 onwards sharp by 1/2 light.

 

B string: 1st fret sharp 1 light, 2-4 perfect, 6-17 flat by 1/2 light.

 

E string: all perfect

[capmaster]

Hello Brian, and welcome to this nice place in the web.

 

First, it's not a problem with your 59 Reissue Les Paul. Capos are likely to cause certain pitch issues on any guitar model. Light string gauges usually are more affected than heavier. Then there are capos allowing for easy, quick adjustment and fine dispersion of pressure on the strings while others take more time or are more critical depending on fretboard radius. Moreover, a perfect nut setup is strongly recommended, in particular when using the capo at the first fret.

 

Since it works well from 9.5" to 14" fretboard radiuses, I'm using a Shubb C-1. My string gauges are .010" - .046" on vibrato guitars, .011" - .050" on hardtail solidbodies, and .012" - .054" on a hardtail ES semi-hollow guitar. The Shubb C-1 is nicely adjustable for the strings being just free of buzz while still in tune. In most cases, I position it somewhat away from the fret wire since mounting too close will cause pitches going sharp.

 

Finally, when reading the pitch deviations in your post #7, it seems that intonation adjustment is required. E6th, A5th, and B2nd are adjusted flat while the G3rd is adjusted sharp. I can't tell about the neck relief from your reports but I guess it is close to fine.

 

Hope this helps.

[milod]

I've been using a capo since '63. Various sorts from a flamenco-type rosewood/string/rosewood friction peg to the "rubber band" variety of years ago, to my current favorite the Kysers. There's one in each of my guitar cases, and my 20 include flattops, archtops, semis, and even a solidbody.

 

It's my observation that overall, if one applies the capo well, it "works," if not, you can bend the strings all over the place. Albert Collins doesn't seem to have problems, but then he's pretty much always capoed.

 

As for intonation... yeah, I s'pose you can make a case on that, but a lot, again, has to do also with how you're using the thing. The guitar is, after all, a tempered scale instrument. Cap's comment about the nut for initial tuning is quite valid, too. If the nut is "off," you've corrected the intonation "incorrectly" for the scale. Frets are more likely to be "on," and so perhaps some difficulty with the capo. "0" frets on some guitars handle that problem well - and I've a hunch that capo use may have been part of the reason they have been used.

 

But watching and listening for years to folks from Mother Maybelle to batches of flamenco players and singers to batches of folkies and then some bluesies like Collins...

 

I'd say that use of the capo is rather like anything else on guitar - it'll cost you.

 

I use very light strings; it costs a bit more care using a capo, gives a bit less "depth" to sound and requires a light playing touch. To me, it's more than worth the cost. Using a capo requires technique differences, both left and right hand, as well as in how to apply it to the strings.

 

For what it's worth, I recall doing the guitar for a production of "Man of La Mancha" that otherwise was in something like Ab, Bb and Eb. I only had a couple of days to figure the whole score for guitar. I can transpose well enough, but it was far easier to use a capo.

 

My old Flamenco-style capo on my classical guitar worked fine even with some quick changes. Why? I think because I'd hold down the "stick" over the strings, then tighten the wood-on-wood peg. That kept the pressure on strings pretty evenly "downward.

 

True too, is that nylon-strung guitars usually have strings closer to the same thicknesses than steel - but there's no reason that equal pressure per string, without "pulling" or "pushing" strings left or right, forward or aft on the fingerboard while applying the strings. That latter is not hard to do without realizing it.

 

The 12-string is yet another animal - but IMHO a strong "downward force" into the fingerboard has handled any difficulties I've had with a wide range of acoustic and even an electric 12 or two.

 

Here are some pix of Flamenco capos such as the one I still have and have used since the summer of '63. You're not going to use one on an LP, but it may give an idea of how one's technique applying the capo can work pretty well toward keeping the instrument in tune.

 

http://www.salondeguitare.com/accessories/Capo/Flamenco%20capo%201%20S.jpg

 

 

 

m

[BrianUK]

First off let me say thanks for all this useful information. It would seem that my nut and intonation need attending to initially so I will deal with that first. Secondly my technique for applying the capo to the strings would seem to be woefully incorrect and when I can find the thing (my son often pinches it and loses it), I will try and get the technique nailed with a decent capo like the Shubb Tommy recommends in his video.

[capmaster]

... but nothing is absolutly perfect except Jennifer Aniston.

Tiffani Thiessen would be my cup of tea.

[capmaster]

I certainly would not kick her out of bed for eating crackers.

Does that mean she would be able to compromise your perfectionism?

[capmaster]

I would have to do an up close and personal inspection of the subject to make a further derermination, but I am sure she would pass with flying colors.

That's understood. I have to confess that I am a scrutinizer in many respects, too. ;)

[Versatile]

Seems well covered so far...

 

I have capo issues more or less with my guitars, acoustic and electric...

 

Fret height is an obvious contributor...as is 'close to fret' or 'further from fret'

 

Each can be used...IMO there is no perfect technique for all situations

 

Spare a thought for me when playing 12 string :blink:

 

Not having the luxury of a guitar for each setting

 

I even choose songs in a certain order to minimise capo changes...

 

Enjoy...

 

V