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Handwired amps?


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About a year ago when i bought my tele from a guy on craigslist he had this sweet sounding amp. Blew mine away, he mumbled something about it being handwired point to point, a clone of a fender princeton 5f2a. The brand is called Marsh? Well. fast forward a year later and i see the guy selling the same amp on craigslist as its only a 5 watt model and he's looking for bigger. This is a link to it if you had any questions about parts, http://store.marshamps.com/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=154

 

900 for a 5watt amp holy moly lol.

 

Was wondering if anyone has one of those boutique amps from Marsh or anyone else and exactly why is handwired so much better than not? Im one of those guys who likes to learn as much as possible and id rather ask than not know. :rolleyes:

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Well for one, we have to define "handwired". PTP (Point To Point) amps are handwired. Turret board amps are handwired. PCB amps can be handwired.

 

All viable amp building methods, and neither can be broadly defined as "better" for one reason; A well-made PCB amp will sound "better" than a poorly made PTP or Turret Board amp. Likewise, a well-made PTP amp will sound "better" than a poorly made Turret Board or PCB amp. You probably get the point.

 

The key words being "well-made". This is the reason PCB amps get a bad rap; PCB is the cheaper method because it requires less worker skill (comparatively to turret board or PTP). It's more of a "paint by numbers" situation, and a lot of the process can be automated (mass-soldering).

 

The problem here is that the manufacturer is trying to save money...and they take it too far. They start subsituting cheaper, smaller, easier-to-acquire components. Rather than mounting pots and such to the chassis, they mount everything to the board, which puts stress on it every time you turn a knob or flick a switch, resulting in reliability problems.

 

If you etch a well-laid out PCB, use high quality components and use flying leads for things like pots and switches, there's no reason why the amp can't sound (subjectively) as good as a well-made PTP or turret board amp with the same components and same circuit.

 

If you get a monkey who's never touched a soldering iron before to wire a PTP amp, it either won't work or it'll sound like sh*t most likely.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

-Ryan

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Well for one, we have to define "handwired". PTP (Point To Point) amps are handwired. Turret board amps are handwired. PCB amps can be handwired.

 

All viable amp building methods, and neither can be broadly defined as "better" for one reason; A well-made PCB amp will sound "better" than a poorly made PTP or Turret Board amp. Likewise, a well-made PTP amp will sound "better" than a poorly made Turret Board or PCB amp. You probably get the point.

 

The key words being "well-made". This is the reason PCB amps get a bad rap; PCB is the cheaper method because it requires less worker skill (comparatively to turret board or PTP). It's more of a "paint by numbers" situation, and a lot of the process can be automated (mass-soldering).

 

The problem here is that the manufacturer is trying to save money...and they take it too far. They start subsituting cheaper, smaller, easier-to-acquire components. Rather than mounting pots and such to the chassis, they mount everything to the board, which puts stress on it every time you turn a knob or flick a switch, resulting in reliability problems.

 

If you etch a well-laid out PCB, use high quality components and use flying leads for things like pots and switches, there's no reason why the amp can't sound (subjectively) as good as a well-made PTP or turret board amp with the same components and same circuit.

 

If you get a monkey who's never touched a soldering iron before to wire a PTP amp, it either won't work or it'll sound like sh*t most likely.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

-Ryan

I see, seems to make sense. Still have a lot to learn, perhaps someday ill buy a book on amplification, im sure it would be a great learning experience. I thought about trading my esp les paul for the amp, i was hoping someone here had one of those.

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I see, seems to make sense. Still have a lot to learn, perhaps someday ill buy a book on amplification, im sure it would be a great learning experience. I thought about trading my esp les paul for the amp, i was hoping someone here had one of those.

 

If the price is right and you like the sound of small tweed Fenders, it may be worth it to you. What's the guy asking for it used?

 

-Ryan

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I have a H/W'd PTP that is also Scaled. Tubes have always been very "happy". It holds the stock feel throughout the reduction curve. Built for me by Bob Reinhardt before he went out to Denver. Info on his efforts is probably still floating on the net. I have the specs in a drawer downstairs. What can I say, it makes me happy. Click to enlarge.

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If the price is right and you like the sound of small tweed Fenders, it may be worth it to you. What's the guy asking for it used?

 

-Ryan

He was asking 1500 for the amp and an american tele, honestly, i doubt he will get it. But, since i know the guy i know he does trades and he might take my esp in trade. Might..

He actually let me try his J-200 last time we met, he had the saddle lowered and it was by far the best acoustic ive ever played.

 

What i might do is offer him the esp for the amp and tell him he could sell the tele quicker in a seperate lower cost deal. He's a tele lover and he had 3 when i met him, and a sg, j200 and 3 amps and crapload of pedals, all in his basement. I dont think id ever leave a j200 in the basement lol..

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I have a H/W'd PTP that is also Scaled. Tubes have always been very "happy". It holds the stock feel throughout the reduction curve. Built for me by Bob Reinhardt before he went out to Denver. Info on his efforts is probably still floating on the net. I have the specs in a drawer downstairs. What can I say, it makes me happy. Click to enlarge.

Just took a listen on Youtube of some of those reinhardts and very nice [thumbup]

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I own a PTP handwired boutique amp. Mine's a Vintage Sound Classic 22. It's based on Fender's Deluxe Reverb circuit. It has two discrete channels that you can A/B switch externally.

 

I also own a nice PCB amp, a Traynor YCV40WR. The Traynor has two switchable channels with boost and bright switching.

 

The Traynor is not a bad amp, but the VSA has far more defined cleans and sounds amazing once it warms up. It has more volume than the 40 watt Traynor, even though it is only 22 watts. I suspect that this is due to the higher quality transformers, but I can't say for sure. In the case of VSA, I read they use high quality components throughout the build, where a stock PCB amp may use just adequate to the task components (also true of some PTP built amps of course).

 

I bought mine as a memorial to my dad who was a cabinet maker and electronics teacher, so I wanted a hand built amp. I wasn't sure if the PTP amp would be all that much better than the Traynor that I already had, but I wanted it so I bought it anyway. In a word, "yeah." It's that much better.

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In a word, "yeah." It's that much better.

 

My take as well. Less harsh and "splatty" is the way I describe them. There are certainly some nice sounding amps with printed circuit boards, but I've had the opportunity to hear quite a few of them copied in a turret/PTP style, and the difference is substantial, IMHO. Others will disagree. I don't care. I trust my ears.

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I built a kit tube 5w amp and hand wired and point to point soldered all the connections and it is a sweet sounding amp , as good as any amp I've ever used.

right now it is my main amp as I don't think I need anything else.

DSC00082.jpg

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"Hand wired" is just marketing bs. It's like saying "hand wound coils" to describe boutique pickups as if all those Chinese children making those GFS pickups are using their elbows to wind.

 

All othe components being the same, you can't hear a difference between pcb, point to point and turret style connections. Electrons don't discrimate.

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Guest Farnsbarns

"Hand wired" is just marketing bs. It's like saying "hand wound coils" to describe boutique pickups as if all those Chinese children making those GFS pickups are using their elbows to wind.

 

All othe components being the same, you can't hear a difference between pcb, point to point and turret style connections. Electrons don't discrimate.

 

I'm not sure it's that cut and dried. Of course, in a scientific sense you're absolutely right but hand wiring is most certainly indicative of quality. Those wave soldered boards for example, are far more likely to have bad joints than one where someone (good) manually made each joint with an iron, and do we think that the manufacturers using them inspect each component? Do they test/measure/select them? Are the cold solder paste joins going to last as long? Are the tracks on the board designed to be as short as possible or to make construction easy? Is component placement going to be governed only by the signal path or is getting them all on the smallest possible piece of board the approach they use?

 

Quality is the point for me. A hand wired amp is far more likely, IMHO, to last a lifetime. I think it's like guitars, Gibsons could easily he made entirely by robots/machines but we buy them, and we spend more, because they aren't.

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This thread, like many, touches on price/quality issues which run through all music(and other) products...

 

The perception of the artisan in his local workshop has been modified hugely in the last 10 years or so

 

So the amp maker who would hand carpenter his cabs and hand wire his valve amps in single production runs has now been 'marketed up' to include probably large numbers of semi mass produced amps, hand wired at speed in a low labour cost factory location...

 

Such is the sophisticated drive for perceived quality at the lowest price

 

'Hand Wired' has big cachet for the 'seeker of vintage tone'

 

Personally moi would buy hand wired everything if money was available

 

Put simply...there can be more attachment to a hand built product with 'visible' internal connections, perhaps, than the ever more miniaturised PCB approach with it's inherent reliability issues...

 

V

 

:-({|=

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I'm not sure it's that cut and dried. Of course, in a scientific sense you're absolutely right but hand wiring is most certainly indicative of quality. Those wave soldered boards for example, are far more likely to have bad joints than one where someone (good) manually made each joint with an iron, and do we think that the manufacturers using them inspect each component? Do they test/measure/select them? Are the cold solder paste joins going to last as long? Are the tracks on the board designed to be as short as possible or to make construction easy? Is component placement going to be governed only by the signal path or is getting them all on the smallest possible piece of board the approach they use?

 

Quality is the point for me. A hand wired amp is far more likely, IMHO, to last a lifetime. I think it's like guitars, Gibsons could easily he made entirely by robots/machines but we buy them, and we spend more, because they aren't.

 

 

I agree that these days "hand wire" is meant to make the buyer feel they are getting quality. But it's just marketing BS. These days you can buy an Ibanez Tube Screamer for $99 or you can get the "hand wired" version for $300. Marshall, Fender, everyone's jumping on the ban wagon. But you're not getting a better amp or pedal for your extra money. You're not buying more quality but you are buying the indication of more quality. If you wanted actual quality you would want well made and well mounted PCB constriction which would be far more durable and have much less likelihood of inconsistencies such as cold solder joints and shorter component life due to over heated components. Automation in manufacturing improves consistency and quality.

 

That doesn't mean that a hand wired amp cant be high quality. But chances of it having issues are higher.

 

 

 

To be anecdotal, I have two PCB based amps in my shop that spent a week underwater. Once they dried out they fired up and have ran perfectly ever since. Contrast that with my all hand wired, vintage 1966 Kalamazoo which was without question the worst sounding amp I had ever encountered when I finally replaced the dead caps. Terrible tone. Useless range of control on the comical reverb. Noisy as a chain saw due to poor high voltage power lay out. The connections in the amp did not match any drawings I was able to find for it. Not even close. The guts of this amp look like a rats nest. PCB would have solved many of those issues because it forces consistency. Now the amp sounds decent after much modification.

 

IMG_20120512_092429.jpg

 

What I'm getting at is this. Given the choice I won't pay more for work I can't hear just to be able to say my gear is hand wired.

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This thread, like many, touches on price/quality issues which run through all music(and other) products...

 

The perception of the artisan in his local workshop has been modified hugely in the last 10 years or so

 

So the amp maker who would hand carpenter his cabs and hand wire his valve amps in single production runs has now been 'marketed up' to include probably large numbers of semi mass produced amps, hand wired at speed in a low labour cost factory location...

 

Such is the sophisticated drive for perceived quality at the lowest price

 

'Hand Wired' has big cachet for the 'seeker of vintage tone'

 

Personally moi would buy hand wired everything if money was available

 

Put simply...there can be more attachment to a hand built product with 'visible' internal connections, perhaps, than the ever more miniaturised PCB approach with it's inherent reliability issues...

 

V

 

:-({|=

 

 

I think that's about as good as anyone has put it.

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assume your knob(s) would be brass or bone - probably somewhat weather dependent, 'cos tone plastic is just a myth man

 

Well, I do actually remember the glorious early days of tone, and more people than I'd care to count stating that the vintage chicken head kn0bs they bought off the new fangled Electronical Bidding At Yahoo thingy were more accurate therefore they could better dial in their tone.

 

Then it got to Harmony Central Guitar Forum and it became gospel truth, good knobs improved your tone.

 

I truly wish I was only kidding.

 

rct

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