Stainless Steel Strings? Perhaps Elixir?

[Notes_Norton]

To my knowledge it is PTFE what makes them hazardous waste after use.

Sounds like something I don't want to be absorbed through my fingers.

 

I've always avoided coated strings because I figure if the manufacturer isn't willing to tell me what they are coating the string with, there is a reason why. So what are two possible reasons? (1) trade secret, but any competitor can buy a set and have it analyzed (2) you might not want to absorb it through your fingers.

 

I never thought about any of this until the 1980s. It is when I started playing a lot of wind synth, flute, and keyboards on stage along with my saxes. Saxophone reeds dry out, and when you re-wet them, they can warp. The result is that they are more difficult to control, completely unpredictable at times, and have a duller tone until the warp works itself out somewhere mid-song.

 

So I bought plastic covered reeds. They work great, in fact, they were better than pure can reeds. I grew up playing natural cane reeds, and I put one on my tongue while assembling the sax to wet it. So with the plasticover reeds, out of habit, the first thing I did when I opened the case was put a reed on my tongue. Then I noticed the plastic made my tongue slightly numb. At first I just ignored that and enjoyed the improved response of the reeds -- and then I started thinking -- whatever it is that is making my tongue numb, is it something I want in my body? So that was the end of coated reeds.

 

Now if Elixir tells me their strings are safe, but they won't tell me what they are coating them with, I'm all of a sudden having a problem with that.

 

Perhaps changing strings often isn't so bad after all. It might be worse for the environment in that it uses more resources, but it might also be better for me.

 

Does anybody have any input that can help me with this newest dilemma?

 

Thanks,

Notes

[Ryan H]

PTFE = The scientific acronym for Teflon. It's used in non-stick cookware. I think you're safe getting it on your fingers. I've been using Elixirs for years with no problems.

 

-Ryan

[zigzag]

Sounds like something I don't want to be absorbed through my fingers.

 

Teflon- the trademark name for polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). Probably less absorbed through your fingers than through your stomach as it was used as non-stick coatings on cookware and often used on food packaging.

 

Edit: Sorry Ryan... a little quicker on the trigger. Took me longer to spell polytetrafluoroethylene.

[milod]

me too in using Elixirs for ages. I actually prefer the polywebs.

 

No problems at all with any of 'em.

 

In fact, although I have been using DR Zebra 9-42 on my AE flattops, but I'm looking at a switch to string-by string Elixirs for the strings since they don't make acoustic 9-42.

 

We'll see. I have an experimental set ready to go.

 

For me, the Elixirs last almost forever. It is my observation that those who are hard strumemers or flatpickers have had some difficulties with the wrapped strings. OTOH, no problem at all for me.

 

m

[capmaster]

Sounds like something I don't want to be absorbed through my fingers.

 

I've always avoided coated strings because I figure if the manufacturer isn't willing to tell me what they are coating the string with, there is a reason why. So what are two possible reasons? (1) trade secret, but any competitor can buy a set and have it analyzed (2) you might not want to absorb it through your fingers.

...

It's definitely just about the hazardous waste thing. Room and skin temperatures won't cause PTFE going dangerous. In contrary, overheating frying pans using it as an inside coat WILL be dangerous to health.

 

Some car manufacturers use PTFE in their factory lubricants and keep it a secret for economical reasons. That's no lie.

[btoth76]

...

Some car manufacturers use PTFE in their factory lubricants and keep it a secret for economical reasons. That's no lie.

 

 

Hello Capmaster!

 

All of them using it, and will use them more and more in the future. Especially on components exposed to high temperatures.

 

Cheers... Bence

[capmaster]

Hello Capmaster!

 

All of them using it, and will use them more and more in the future. Especially on components exposed to high temperatures.

 

Cheers... Bence

It is just poor. Same as with asbestos, it might take some more decades until the authorities become aware of the consequences.

 

In most cases it is not about reducing friction for saving energy or extended product life. Saving money in production is the very reason. It allows for mediocre surfaces of moving parts that otherwise would seize within a short period. This applies in particular to certain status symbols on wheels.

 

Living in Southern Germany, I feel nothing but ashamed of the "cars" manufactured anywhere in the world bearing the name of Southern German so-called "car manufacturers".

[btoth76]

It is just poor. Same as with asbestos, it might take some more decades until the authorities become aware of the consequences.

 

In most cases it is not about reducing friction for saving energy or extended product life. Saving money in production is the very reason. It allows for mediocre surfaces of moving parts that otherwise would seize within a short period¹. This applies in particular to certain status symbols on wheels.

 

Living in Southern Germany, I feel nothing but ashamed of the "cars" manufactured anywhere in the world bearing the name of Southern German so-called "car manufacturers".²

 

1. Absolutely.

2. Most of the people who own one of those cars, are very proud and happy owners.

 

Cheers... Bence

[capmaster]

1. Absolutely.

2. Most of the people who own one of those cars, are very proud and happy owners.

 

Cheers... Bence

As for the 2nd point, this is why I called them "status symbols on wheels" which seems to be worth more to certain people than performance and usefulness. Typically, power and energy consumption are just data far from reality. But devil-may-care, they just want to show off their money. Informed customers buy and drive differently and might be more critical than others.

 

Some people like me are real scrutinizers. I found transposed digits in the official paperwork of my car regarding an axle drive ratio. They wrote 3.18 instead of 3.81(35) for 61:16 which is the ratio for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th speed. The other one for 5th and 6th speed, and reverse gear is 61:22 or 2.77(272727...). Due to front transverse installation, the manual six-speed gearbox of my Diesel passenger car has a triple gearing for shorter build. When I asked my car dealer about the transposed digits, he replied he had been asked many things but nobody had asked this before. Well, this is just me...

[btoth76]

As for the 2nd point, this is why I called them "status symbols on wheels" which seems to be worth more to certain people than performance and usefulness. Typically, power and energy consumption are just data far from reality. But devil-may-care, they just want to show off their money. Informed customers buy and drive differently and might be more critical than others.

 

Some people like me are real scrutinizers. I found transposed digits in the official paperwork of my car regarding an axle drive ratio. They wrote 3.18 instead of 3.81(35) for 61:16 which is the ratio for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th speed. The other one for 5th and 6th speed, and reverse gear is 61:22 or 2.77(272727...). Due to front transverse installation, the manual six-speed gearbox of my Diesel passenger car car has a triple gearing for shorter build. When I asked my car dealer about the transposed digits, he replied he had been asked many things but nobody had asked this before. Well, this is just me...

 

You are right, as always. But automotive industry (of Your country) drives the economics of whole Europe...

 

People get away with Horsepower figures too. That`s what sells cars to those people You pointed out to. However, none of them considers the all-important torque curve and transmission ratios.

 

Working in automotive business, I drive a 17-old vehicle, and not willing to buy anything built later than that. I see the decline in quality year after year...

 

Cheers... Bence

[btoth76]

Sorry Notes for going off-topic...

 

...may I suggest Rotosounds? They last really long, and sound great.

 

In case You are afraid of coatings.

 

Cheers... Bence

[capmaster]

...

People get away with Horsepower figures too. That`s what sells cars to those people You pointed out to. However, none of them considers the all-important torque curve and transmission ratios.

 

Working in automotive business, I drive a 17-old vehicle, and not willing to buy anything built later than that. I see the decline in quality year after year...

 

Cheers... Bence

"Horsepower figures" is the correct term. I prefer cars exceeding their specifications stock, not through engine chiptuning. You wouldn't believe what cars I blow with my unimpressive and unmodified bread-and-butter-car.

[Notes_Norton]

Reading a number of papers published in peer reviewed publications and archived on the Library Of Congress / National Institute of Health website I see a lot of them that implicate long term exposure to PTFE causes prostate, breast, and other cancers in lab animals.

 

Of course (1) it might only affect rats and other primates (2) we might not be able to absorb enough through our fingers to cause a problem (3) like smoking cigarettes, some people may be more susceptible to the negative effects than others.

 

I'll err on the side of caution - an ounce of prevention goes a long way.

 

How safe are things our government calls safe? When the FDA did tests on Vioxx they used Naproxen (Aleve) to test it against. Vioxx didn't sooth the pain any more than Naproxen but it had a nasty side effect. The people in the double blind study were 500% more likely to get a heart attack than those taking Naproxen. Note: Naproxen has never been suspected of preventing heart attacks nor is it a recommended preventative. When the tests were done, the report simply said Naproxen was 500 times better at preventing a heart attack.

 

So Vioxx went on the market, showing no advantage as a pain killer. In the 5 years it was on the market, Vioxx killed more Americans than the entire Viet Nam war. When they couldn't hide the truth anymore, the FDA (Merck's partner in crime) gave them a fine that represented about what one super-bowl ad might cost. Merck made billions of dollars by mass-murdering American citizens, and the government approved the slaughter.

 

So if the government tells me Teflon is safe, and a number of peer-reviewed studies tell me it probably isn't safe, I'll avoid it.

 

I've taken this cautious approach since I was a hippie. If I need something, I'll use it, but if there is a safer alternative I'll take that instead.

 

I don't want to be in the hospital saying, "If only I hadn't done this or that, if only I hadn't tried hard enough, I wouldn't be dying right now."

 

So I'm now in my upper 60s, I'm on zero prescription drugs, I haven't missed a day of work since 1964, I catch a mild cold every 5 years or so, I don't get the flu, and all my blood test numbers (including cholesterol) are in the recommended zone. When I went in for my annual physical, the new nurse came in the room, exited quickly, then came back. She said that she thought she was in the wrong room. The chart said I was in my upper 60s and I look like I'm in my low 50s (she made my day). My eye doctor says my eyes are like a person 20 years younger than myself and that is an indication of my biological age.

 

It's obviously working for me - YMMV

 

Unless I step on a metaphorical land mine, I intend to live to be a healthy 100 or more.

 

So I'll guess I'll just change the strings more often.

 

Notes

[Notes_Norton]

Sorry Notes for going off-topic...

 

...may I suggest Rotosounds? They last really long, and sound great.

 

In case You are afraid of coatings.

 

Cheers... Bence

Rotosounds? Googling them mostly brings up bass strings. I'll do some more investigation.

 

Thanks,

Notes

 

OK, I found them - I'll keep on investigating

 

What makes them last longer?

[badbluesplayer]

Ernie Ball plain strings are tin plated. Not sure about other brands. Probably the same. See here -

 

http://www.ernieball.com/products/electric-strings/1748/008-plain-steel-6-pack

[btoth76]

I use 10-46 of these: http://www.rotosound.com/rotos

 

Interesting, looking at GC and Sweetwater, I could only find bass strings too...

 

This is a polymer coated string from them: http://www.rotosound.com/nexus-electric/

 

Cheers... Bence

[capmaster]

...

How safe are things our government calls safe? When the FDA did tests on Vioxx they used Naproxen (Aleve) to test it against. Vioxx didn't sooth the pain any more than Naproxen but it had a nasty side effect. The people in the double blind study were 500% more likely to get a heart attack than those taking Naproxen. Note: Naproxen has never been suspected of preventing heart attacks nor is it a recommended preventative. When the tests were done, the report simply said Naproxen was 500 times better at preventing a heart attack.

 

So Vioxx went on the market, showing no advantage as a pain killer. In the 5 years it was on the market, Vioxx killed more Americans than the entire Viet Nam war. When they couldn't hide the truth anymore, the FDA (Merck's partner in crime) gave them a fine that represented about what one super-bowl ad might cost. Merck made billions of dollars by mass-murdering American citizens, and the government approved the slaughter.

 

So if the government tells me Teflon is safe, and a number of peer-reviewed studies tell me it probably isn't safe, I'll avoid it.

 

I've taken this cautious approach since I was a hippie. If I need something, I'll use it, but if there is a safer alternative I'll take that instead.

...

So I'll guess I'll just change the strings more often.

 

Notes

PTFE is illegally used as a lubricant in the pharmaceutical industry, too. It is definitely not approved.

 

Due to globalization and economical interests, medicines are likely to kill more human life expectancy per year than all the wars and regimes of the 20th century. The poor approval regulations including the recent mutual respect deal will exacerbate this within the forthcoming decades. There are countless aspects which are too long to be debated here, but in short I think it's best to avoid using medicine if anyhow possible.

[zigzag]

I've worked in an industry that, as part of my job, required that I know and understand Food and Drug Administration regulations related to indirect and direct food additives and how they related to my industry. That doesn't mean that I know how the FDA works, first hand, but it did give me a pretty good idea about how the chemical industry is regulated by the FDA.

 

First let me say that, as with all government agencies, the reasons for their existence is generally with good intentions as are most of the regulations that are borne from them. The FDA has a pretty good idea how the industries they regulate work, and most of the regulations are effective and positive. That said, there is a LOT wrong with the FDA- corporate influences and agendas, desperate health industry needs causing premature approvals, grandfathered approvals, faulty and irrelevant testing, over-regulation, incorrect statistical analysis, falsified data, faulty conclusions... the list goes on and is typical of most government agencies. But before we start believing that all corporations are bad and will do anything for the almighty dollar (a position I often take), let me say that I have seen a good deal of self-regulation taking place in industries that handle food and food related products. Without being told by the government, many companies have voluntarily removed phthalates, bisphenol A, a whole list of solvents, monomers, photo initiators, pigments/dyes, surfactants, etc. from the list of approved materials from their suppliers, and the FDA is constantly modifying their lists of unapproved and approved materials.

 

I'm no doctor, but from what I understand, due to genetics, many people are more pre-disposed to developing cancer. There must be tons of environmental factors that contribute. Often times in laboratory testing, lab animals are subjected to many times more dosages than a human would ever see. My feeling about PTFE is that it is safe for humans, even if ingested in small amounts. There is a whole world of other materials that we should be more concerned about.

 

It is interesting that the FDA does not regulate utensils used in food preparation, including cookware, and it does not regulate fast food packaging (fast food packaging is temporary and not repeated). The FDA does regulate packaging used in food-contact surfaces intended for use in producing, manufacturing, packing, processing, preparing, treating, packaging, transporting, or holding food under multiple applications and conditions (such as retort packaging where food is cooked in packages). Some of these applications would cover exposures to temperatures high enough to cause a breakdown in the molecular structures, and possible oxidization of those components, and a release of those volatile components, which would then be considered food additives. Extractability studies are done to determine exposure levels and numbers are generated to determine acceptable limits. Both tin and PTFE are approved by the FDA for direct contact with food under most all applications and conditions.

[Kaiser Bill]

All of this talk about Elixirs makes me want to try a set on something. I've had a few sets that came with my J200 along with many new sets of Martin and D'Addario...never gave the Elixirs a thought tho. Nobody I knew (locally) had ever used them and if so, never said a word about them. I hope they are half of what they are cracked up to be. They may have a new customer.

[milod]

kaiserbill...

 

The polywebs have a somewhat thicker coating of what amounts to Goretex on the wrapped strings; somewhat thinner on the nanowebs.

 

I rather like the polywebs myself. One may make a case that they "mellow" the sound if one likes them, or "mutes" the sound if one doesn't. <grin>

 

m

[stein]

Notes:

 

When I used to play, I used that GHS "Fast fret", the spray on stuff. (or is it "Finger Ease"?....anyway, the spray). It's advertised for players who want slicker and faster, and supposed to extend string life. But I found it makes an excellent string cleaner, and that's what I used it for.

 

My theory was that a string isn't dead until it is actually damaged. That would be the wraps have physical damage or the string gets nicks or kinks from fretwear or a hard bend. They actually sound "dead" mostly from grime or dirt, or sweat.

 

Just spray some on a smooth-like guitar polish cloth, and use that to scrub the string by wrapping the wet portion of the cloth around it. The plain strings will even squeek. If the string were just dirty or had corrosion that cleaned off, they would actually sound bright and new again. In fact, they wouldn't sound half bad even if they had damage.

 

The bad part is that the stuff itself leaves some sort of goo, especially if you spray it on thick in hopes of retaining that "slickery" feel most buy it for in the first place. i don't know what the long term effects are for sure on the guitar, as I only used it on a couple of my 'gigging' guitars, which to be fair, got a good (or fair) amount of use to where it would be hard to say it the fretboards were that way from the stuff, or just a lot of use. The one I used it the most on seems to be fine. I wouldn't spray it on a vintage archtop though.

 

I wouldn't say it's for everybody, and really, it might be mostly laziness on my part. Myself, if I was going to play a 3 hour gig, the strings will be done (crushed windings for sure) by the end of the night. But for jamming, or sitting in for a set or two, or band practice, auditions, etc., I ain't changing strings for an hour or two of playing time. And, if the guitar gets used for an hour or so 2 or three times a week, you know. Besides, if a guy is playing pro, (like yourself), keeping fresh strings and the like is more of an expected expenditure.

 

Problably didn't need the long post. Basically, I thought it might be useful in your case to give it a try. If you get a can it either works on the first application or it doesn't. I don't think ANY string type that will be any different in this type of thing.

[capmaster]

Thanks for describing it here, Stein. Some of my bandmates have a very aggressive sweat and regularly use string conditioners. They would kill strings of most makes in half an hour of playing which takes me dozens of hours. Skin bacteria can vary extremely in corrosive impact.

[stein]

Oh, and about the environmental thing:

 

I can't say for sure if teflon is "bad", or to what extent, but it seems to me it can't be any worse than metal. All that black stuff on your fingers can't be good. My understanding is that metal is one of the worst there is, as far as health consequences.

 

But then of corse, if MILROD is still here posting and playing, it can't really be that bad.

[milod]

<grin>

 

m

[surfpup]

I rather like the polywebs myself. One may make a case that they "mellow" the sound if one likes them, or "mutes" the sound if one doesn't. <grin>

 

I use only the PolyWebs on my acoustics - been doing so for about 10 years. Love 'em. Less bright out of the package than un-coated phosphor bronze - but that smooth sound lasts for months.