PB26 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 So I have two 2013 SGs, and they're great, but there are a couple spots where I need to be really careful with my fretting fingers lest I get the dreaded sharp-note effect. Number #1 problem spot is the G string, second fret. When I strum the D chord it's less noticeable, but when I'm hitting each string individually all the way down and back up again, I need to really use a light touch on the G string, otherwise I get an ugly sharp note. (Guitar was intonated with a strobe.) I manage well enough with the light touch trick, and the sound is good. But I've been reading about Buzz Feiten this and Earvana that. Are these things the solution to a problem that has always plagued stringed instruments, or is it snake oil? One thing I tried was a wound G string on my droptuned guitar, which I've outfitted with 12s on the bass side, 10s on the treble. But it made bends and vibrato, which I do a ton of, harder than they should be. And that option won't work with my standard tune guitar. So apart from 1) light touch; 2) wound G string; or 3) newfangled nut, are there any effective options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 It's easy to say "light touch," but difficult to achieve depending on how you're fingering that string. My one "board" guitar has worn 8-38s on it and sounds fine but... after playing even 9-42, I have to retrain my left hand not to fret as hard. All the gimmicks in the world cannot replace technique on some issues. I figure this is one. Intonation can be improved on many, if not most guitars by this or that in the open string position - but assuming a proper setup and intonation, which you should have, what you do with your left hand and/or capo is what's making the difference otherwise. The only other possibility would be whether the intonation on that string is not set correctly. Chiming at the 12th fret can help a bit in seeing potential difficulty, but... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 It's easy to say "light touch," but difficult to achieve depending on how you're fingering that string. My one "board" guitar has worn 8-38s on it and sounds fine but... after playing even 9-42, I have to retrain my left hand not to fret as hard. All the gimmicks in the world cannot replace technique on some issues. I figure this is one. Intonation can be improved on many, if not most guitars by this or that in the open string position - but assuming a proper setup and intonation, which you should have, what you do with your left hand and/or capo is what's making the difference otherwise. The only other possibility would be whether the intonation on that string is not set correctly. Chiming at the 12th fret can help a bit in seeing potential difficulty, but... m Makes sense. I know it's set up properly, and when I do my part it sounds good. Just seems with every guitar I pick up that G string needs special handling unless it's wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yeah, if every guitar pretty much is the same... I've gotta say it's you. That "G" is in a transitional place, both in position and gauge, when it comes to how to best finger it - and that includes a question of how the entire left hand is positioned and used. <sigh> m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Be aware...you are not alone... Some guitars have tall frets which makes things worse IMX SG's have lowish frets...although some can be tall... I own a Gibson SG and a Gordon Smith 'SG' MIUK...neither have 3rd string issues Personal opinion...players can get hung up on tuning issues which are to a certain extent inevitable on fretted instruments Careful selection of string gauge can help And some players go for a wound 3rd successfully... Rock and Blues etc players spending time up 'the dusty end' may not know they have a problem... <_< V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StRanger7032 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Start out simple and measure the string height at the nut. My G-400 always sounded awful when playing open chords. I tried heavier strings, but that only helped a little bit. When I took the guitar in to have the frets dressed last year, the tech told me the nut looked a bit high and he adjusted the height. Problem solved 100%! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Start out simple and measure the string height at the nut. My G-400 always sounded awful when playing open chords. I tried heavier strings, but that only helped a little bit. When I took the guitar in to have the frets dressed last year, the tech told me the nut looked a bit high and he adjusted the height. Problem solved 100%! Thanks. When I get them to install my new pickup I'll have them check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul P. Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 So I have two 2013 SGs, and they're great, but there are a couple spots where I need to be really careful with my fretting fingers lest I get the dreaded sharp-note effect. Number #1 problem spot is the G string, second fret. When I strum the D chord it's less noticeable, but when I'm hitting each string individually all the way down and back up again, I need to really use a light touch on the G string, otherwise I get an ugly sharp note. (Guitar was intonated with a strobe.) I manage well enough with the light touch trick, and the sound is good. But I've been reading about Buzz Feiten this and Earvana that. Are these things the solution to a problem that has always plagued stringed instruments, or is it snake oil? One thing I tried was a wound G string on my droptuned guitar, which I've outfitted with 12s on the bass side, 10s on the treble. But it made bends and vibrato, which I do a ton of, harder than they should be. And that option won't work with my standard tune guitar. So apart from 1) light touch; 2) wound G string; or 3) newfangled nut, are there any effective options? PB26, you may also want to bring it to a reputable luthier and have them check the overall fret heights. When I first got my 2011 SG Standard I had a couple of "high" frets in the lower position of the neck (2nd-3rd fret) that were causing a similar problem like you have. I had the frets leveled and that took care of the problem. I also had a bone nut put on besides. Now my intonation is fine all the way up the neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 PB26, you may also want to bring it to a reputable luthier and have them check the overall fret heights. When I first got my 2011 SG Standard I had a couple of "high" frets in the lower position of the neck (2nd-3rd fret) that were causing a similar problem like you have. I had the frets leveled and that took care of the problem. I also had a bone nut put on besides. Now my intonation is fine all the way up the neck. Funny you mention that: when my dealer's in-house luthier installed my Iommi pickup last week he said he wasn't exactly thrilled with what he was seeing with the frets so he leveled them for me. I didn't notice a difference with the intonation issue, but the guitar plays noticeably better. However, he also mentioned the nut slots appeared high from the factory. He suggested I give the guitar a whirl before messing with the nut just in case it was the frets after all. But it seems more likely a nut issue because he did a beautiful job on the frets. I just got a strobe tuner (Sonic Research Turbo Tuner), and after tuning the open strings and verifying intonation, it's literally impossible for me to fret the G string at the 2nd fret and get a reading that isn't sharp. If I fret it (and pick it) the absolute bare minimum to get a note to ring out, it's sharp. So this is not a technique issue -- I can use a light touch and chords in that area of the fretboard have always come easy to me. I know perfect intonation across all notes isn't 100% possible, but since others don't have the issue I'm experiencing, there must be a way around it. Anyone ever mess around with one of those Zero Glides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 ... But I've been reading about Buzz Feiten this and Earvana that. Are these things the solution to a problem that has always plagued stringed instruments, or is it snake oil? ... Neither this nor that. In fact it is just adding one more compromise to them two inherent in guitars. The first one, sharp overtones, is part of any real existing string and wind instrument. The second is twelve tone equal temperament which fretboards, keyboards, and all the wind instrument using keys or valves are based on. Start out simple and measure the string height at the nut. My G-400 always sounded awful when playing open chords. I tried heavier strings, but that only helped a little bit. When I took the guitar in to have the frets dressed last year, the tech told me the nut looked a bit high and he adjusted the height. Problem solved 100%! Support this opinion and experience. Nut problems are overlooked fairly often although the cure would be a cheap one. People sometimes tend to changing machine heads, bridges or tailpieces before addressing the very problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 Thanks, makes sense. I had mentioned the nut possibility to my luthier and he wanted to hit one variable at a time, but it certainly does seem to be the nut. Anyone know if there's a chart somewhere that indicates specs for string height at the nut on an SG? Would like to do some checking on my own before I bring it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 ... Anyone know if there's a chart somewhere that indicates specs for string height at the nut on an SG? Would like to do some checking on my own before I bring it in. In my opinion it would be best to bring the open string clearance above 1st fret close to that above the 2nd fret when fretted at 1st fret. In most cases, luthiers leave subtly more flesh to the nut grooves to make them survive some string changes and tuning for a while. 1st fret intonation will be compromised this way though. All of my Floyd Rose locking nuts are adjusted with shims selecting to achieve the previoulsy described aim. In my guess the 2015 Gibson nuts could be a step into the right direction, but I'm not sure up to now since I wasn't able to check them out personally. My solution for successfully dealing with the dreaded "bling" problem, i. e. strings getting seized at the nut and performing pitch leaps, is basically an old one on hardtail Gibsons. I use TP-6 finetuning tailpieces, indeed allowing for precise and stable tuning within seconds as decribed in the advertisement: http://store.gibson.com/tp-6-stop-bar-tailpiece/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 Thanks, very helpful as always. I have the pitch leap problem with my G string: as I tune it away from being flat, it jumps straight to sharp unless I turn that peg like a surgeon. Although last time I changed strings I forgot to pencil in the nut slot, which can't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Thanks, very helpful as always. I have the pitch leap problem with my G string: as I tune it away from being flat, it jumps straight to sharp unless I turn that peg like a surgeon. Although last time I changed strings I forgot to pencil in the nut slot, which can't help. You're welcome. Plain G3rd usually are most prone to stick slip at the nut, but with heavier gauges it moves to the B2nd. Recently I had to deal with pitch leaps of the D4th on my newest purchase, an Ibanez AR 720 FM. Got it solved through grinding the upper edge of the nut groove using the string itself in a breaking angle attitude. Then I put some Ballistol oil into the groove, and now it's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuWa Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 The entire concept of the Plek system is to solve this issue. The depth of the nut slots and the frets and fretboard are scanned with a laser and high frets are ground in relation to the fretboard and the other frets to make an excellent standard setup. It is still up to the player to play in tune. A guitar is not a piano. Your hands are working the strings, not little hammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 The entire concept of the Plek system is to solve this issue. The depth of the nut slots and the frets and fretboard are scanned with a laser and high frets are ground in relation to the fretboard and the other frets to make an excellent standard setup. It is still up to the player to play in tune. A guitar is not a piano. Your hands are working the strings, not little hammers. Yep, but as mentioned, in a tuning situation with 100% control over applied pressure, I still can't get a non-sharp note. Surely there's an issue at that point -- it's not like I'm whizzing through a song I haven't mastered and notice the problem only then. I notice the 2015s have a zero fret built into the metal nut. I wonder if it can be retrofit onto my 2013s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuWa Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 A "zero fret" takes the nut out of the equation only. Pleking adjusts fret height in relation to the fngerboard What's left is finger pressure and the built-in issues related to bending a string over a fret that Feiten and others have tried to address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm assuming my guitar wasn't Pleked. Is this a Custom Shop thing? I watched the video on YouTube and it seems like quite a process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul P. Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm assuming my guitar wasn't Pleked. Is this a Custom Shop thing? I watched the video on YouTube and it seems like quite a process. Supposedly they are all "pleked" now. Again, as has been said by many, if it isn't a fret/fret-board issue, then the culprit may be the nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 I notice the 2015s have a zero fret built into the metal nut. I wonder if it can be retrofit onto my 2013s. Called Gibson and they said the 2015 zero fret nut will not be available as a retrofit item for previous model guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 As has been noted elsewhere... There is at least one aftermarket piece that offers a zero-fret solution. http://www.zeroglide.com/ I've never used, or felt a real need for one, but... it's there and obviously selling some stuff. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 As has been noted elsewhere... There is at least one aftermarket piece that offers a zero-fret solution. http://www.zeroglide.com/ I've never used, or felt a real need for one, but... it's there and obviously selling some stuff. m Only concern is the extra fret seems to protrude a bit onto the fretboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 My guess is that it's designed to be adjusted to match where the nut would go if it were designed to slightly shelf over the fingerboard. It kinda looks as if the fret itself does extend a bit over the fingerboard but... also, the actual point from which the string is suspended is about at the place where it would reach out from a nut. Frankly I'd not care to do the switch myself... but... just an option. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 It kinda looks as if the fret itself does extend a bit over the fingerboard but... also, the actual point from which the string is suspended is about at the place where it would reach out from a nut. Yes, now that I look more closely, the contact point with the string is in line with the edge of the fretboard, as it is on a stock Gibson nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB26 Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 Alright, think I figured some stuff out: Previous set up: -Relief of about a business card width, maybe a tiny fraction less -Action: 5/64 bass, 3/64 treble per Gibson's basic guidelines After some fiddling around, mainly for playability purposes, I arrived at this set up: -Fretting first and last frets, and tapping string at 8th fret, relief is just enough so that I can see the string barely move to reach the fret. Neck would be straight if I touched the truss rod again. -Action: 3/64 bass, 2/64 treble. No tone loss, way easier to play, and I can fret the G string on the second fret and get a true note without having to tip toe around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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