Guitar Top Grain Runout

[BluesKing777]

So taking photos of my latest guitar outside has highlighted the grain runout - a hot topic on UMGF sometimes.

 

To the eye (my old ones!), my guitar looks like this photo:

 

 

 

But if the guitar is angled to the light, it shows the grain runout - I like it and the guitar is and sounds sensational, but others get real cranky:

 

 

 

 

Here is some interesting discussion and some explanations from (Thanks!) UMGF!

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/161874/Dilemma-with-my-new-D28A-1937?page=1#.VE7H9iKUfw0

 

 

 

My Gibsons with the Sunburst make it hard to see, well indoors and most Gibsons have burst, but not all....what is the verdict here?

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[GuitarLight]

The run out you speak of is unsightly to me. While it may not affect the tone...it certainly DOES affect the look. And a top without that unsightly run out is a much more beautiful, and much more desirable looking guitar. Do you agree? :-)

[BluesKing777]

The Guitar Fairies are getting in to my photos taken in the lavenders....... I will take a photo with my good old iPhone later.....

 

 

My trusty LG3 looks a bit....grainy.. from this angle:

 

 

 

 

But not from this angle:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would I have bought these if I had played them at a shop? Not sure! I got the specs I wanted (very wide spacings on the OM for example), all I can go by is photos and specs online...and the chances of buying these guitars here out near the outer planets is about zero, zip! So they have to come on the space shuttle! (Fedex Jet), or I have to play the local offerings which include lots of Taylors and various skinny neck makes of Dreads! This is Dreadsville from wayyyy back. I played the WHOLE Martin wall at a local shop, but not one with bridge spacing I wanted....etc etc.

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[BigKahune]

.

Most tops are put together with the thinner grain in the center which accentuates the effect, but as the grain widens toward the edges the effect is much less (pic below, no color adjustment, just cut and pasted).

 

For me, it's the sound/tone. The cosmetic visual aspect of the runout and its supposed structural compromises is much ado about nothing.

 

.

[JuanCarlosVejar]

So taking photos of my latest guitar outside has highlighted the grain runout - a hot topic on UMGF sometimes.

 

To the eye (my old ones!), my guitar looks like this photo:

 

 

 

But if the guitar is angled to the light, it shows the grain runout - I like it and the guitar is and sounds sensational, but others get real cranky:

 

 

 

 

Here is some interesting discussion and some explanations from (Thanks!) UMGF!

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/161874/Dilemma-with-my-new-D28A-1937?page=1#.VE7H9iKUfw0

 

 

 

My Gibsons with the Sunburst make it hard to see, well indoors and most Gibsons have burst, but not all....what is the verdict here?

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

To my eye that's a beautiful top .I cannot see anything wrong

 

 

 

 

JC

[j45nick]

It doesn't bother me one single bit.It's all about tone.

 

If grain run-out bothers you, you may need to find a new hobby. Try nit-picking, or figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

With most tops, you can find a bit of the grain run-out effect by changing the lighting angle or angle of view.

 

If this bothers you, I hate to think what you obsessed about as a teenager.

 

Man, there are some anal-retentive dudes over there on the UMGF!

[BluesKing777]

It doesn't bother me one single bit.It's all about tone.

 

If grain run-out bothers you, you may need to find a new hobby. Try nit-picking, or figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

With most tops, you can find a bit of the grain run-out effect by changing the lighting angle or angle of view.

 

If this bothers you, I hate to think what you obsessed about as a teenager.

 

Man, there are some anal-retentive dudes over there on the UMGF!

 

 

 

 

 

Scary, but informative I thought they were!

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[duluthdan]

One word... Sunburst. Problem goes away.

[BluesKing777]

Well, I just took the promised iPhone photo and for some reason the guitar looks how I see it - my other lens must be.....or the photographer...bizarre...:

 

 

 

 

 

 

But really, this is mainly what I see of the top as I am playing....

 

 

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

Edit: Maybe the reason nobody ever wants me to take their photo is surfacing here somewhere...except Dog...

[BluesKing777]

One word... Sunburst. Problem goes away.

 

 

 

Thanks Dan!

 

Shall I buy a couple of spray cans in black, red and ...what is the other..yellow?

 

 

Though I am pretty sure once you know you have grain runout, you can feel it, sunburst or no....

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Dave F]

I'm having problem understanding the term 'runout'.

 

The grain on your top looks to be running parallel well within reason.

 

With the slightly different coloration and slight grain pattern difference I would say the top is not book matched very well.

 

 

 

[BluesKing777]

I'm having problem understanding the term 'runout'.

 

The grain on your top looks to be running parallel well within reason.

 

With the slightly different coloration and slight grain pattern difference I would say the top is not book matched very well.

 

 

Have a look through the link to UMGF I put in the first post above, Dave - they explain it very well. When the Adi billets are cut, they use a saw instead of a splitter along the grain, saw being quicker but produces the effect discussed....

 

 

I love this place! imagine this conversation with the Other Half!

 

BluesKing777.

[j45nick]

Have a look through the link to UMGF I put in the first post above, Dave - they explain it very well. When the Adi billets are cut, they use a saw instead of a splitter along the grain, saw being quicker but produces the effect discussed....

 

 

I love this place! imagine this conversation with the Other Half!

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

As my wife would say, "if another guitar shows up at the front door, I'm gonna split your billet, big boy!"

 

By the way, some guitar builders actually split the billets by hand (just like splitting shingles), rather than re-sawing them. A lot more waste that way. There's even a special knife for doing it.

[mountainpicker]

To me it's a matter of the cost. As the cost of the instrument increases I think that runout in a top should become non-existent. At what dollar price point one crosses the line is up to each individual buyer. Ask yourself this, if the guitar cost $6000 would you think it was OK? If the guitar cost $500 would you think it was OK? Personally I don't dig it and I think it reflects poorly on Martin's reputation. Now, a hundred years from now when beetles have eaten things up, spruce might be extremely hard to come by and I could be laughed at for my perspective but I get to live in my time and right now I think the top offered for what I think this guitar probably sells for, especially in Australia, is stretching it a bit. But, to each their own.

[DenverSteve]

The guitar is gorgeous in my opinion. If you look at bearclaw, runout, silking... and let that bother you before the tone, volume, sustain, - then I would stay from most guitars. The ONLY thing that matters with that guitar is how is sounds. Grain, Silking, Bearclaw, Runout - are individual characteristics of different sets of wood. Simply put, I don't want a guitar that looks like everyone else's. I love some bearclaw, silking, runout or anything else that gives my guitars uniqueness - AND great tone. Here's one that I purchased that only has to be heard to make jaws drop. If I worried about grain or runout, I never would have been playing this guitar.

[BluesKing777]

As my wife would say, "if another guitar shows up at the front door, I'm gonna split your billet, big boy!"

 

 

 

Well, the mistake you made as I see it Nick, was taking her on the boat - you could have hid some guitars out there!

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[BluesKing777]

To me it's a matter of the cost. As the cost of the instrument increases I think that runout in a top should become non-existent. At what dollar price point one crosses the line is up to each individual buyer. Ask yourself this, if the guitar cost $6000 would you think it was OK? If the guitar cost $500 would you think it was OK? Personally I don't dig it and I think it reflects poorly on Martin's reputation. Now, a hundred years from now when beetles have eaten things up, spruce might be extremely hard to come by and I could be laughed at for my perspective but I get to live in my time and right now I think the top offered for what I think this guitar probably sells for, especially in Australia, is stretching it a bit. But, to each their own.

 

 

 

Too late now - it is already L-O-V-E, Love!

 

I am really interested in everyone's perspective though.

 

I bought it from the U.S. and the formula I have come up with for the current exchange rate, duties, taxes, freight, insurance, anything else? Stress waiting for the delivery...the amount plus 55%, regardless of cost.....so $500 + 55% or $10,000 plus 55%.....cruel place to live, ain't it?

 

It is usually cheaper than buying at the local shop, which adds a middleman cut and a salesman cut, but loses a bit for their wholesale.....so the formula for buying at the local is what my old boss use to charge for everything: (Think of a number and triple it!).

 

 

So yes, MP, it does give us pause.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[bobouz]

I greatly prefer having minimal runout.

 

Bought a Martin years ago with a pretty severe case of it,

thinking I was not shallow enough to let it bug me.

 

It always bugged me & eventually the guitar was traded off.

 

Personal lesson learned.

[blindboygrunt]

It's one of those internet topics isn't it.

I don't think I'd even look to see if a guitar had it. if it wasn't for forums I wouldn't have heard of it.

SomeOne asked about the rippling effect on the tops and were advised to get a humidifier when it's common place to see the ripples through the lacquer.

 

we're becoming way too obsessed with minutiae that life's passing us by.

let some stuff slide by guys :)

[BluesKing777]

It's one of those internet topics isn't it.

I don't think I'd even look to see if a guitar had it. if it wasn't for forums I wouldn't have heard of it.

SomeOne asked about the rippling effect on the tops and were advised to get a humidifier when it's common place to see the ripples through the lacquer.

 

we're becoming way too obsessed with minutiae that life's passing us by.

let some stuff slide by guys :)

 

 

 

Probably right, BBG.

 

But a lot of these little things like laminates and ripples and grain and paint splotches and various concerns are to do with people not wanting to find out the have been 'had', and thus done their hard-earned.....

 

 

BluesKing777.

[fortyearspickn]

Everything is relative. Whether you spend $500, $2,500, $5,000 or $10,000. - you expect the guitar to be as perfect as you can define the term. A 19 year old won't see something like this. A collector will. This is purely cosmetic, a matter of taste. Remember all the educational tags we use to see on leather? "Natural Marks are to be expected." No two snowflakes are the same: Do you seek an annulment on your wedding night when you realize the left one is 3.5% perkier than the right one? Perhaps we need Parlor Man's insight here. He could start a thread on the "other guitar forum" asking this same question about guitar backsides.

[mountainpicker]

BK777-It's been my personal experience that many of the great, remote places to live also come with a higher cost of living. Groceries where I live are ridiculously more than just about anywhere I've been...except remote parts of Alaska. As long as you are happy with what you pay for what you get (getting back to your Martin), that's all that matters.

[BluesKing777]

Yes, I am very happy with what I bought, to be clear, I was just interested to hear what others thought of the grain thing....

 

 

But my initial reaction after playing this guitar the first couple of times, was to want to scratch my name across that beautiful piece of spruce so nobody else can have it/want it! Too many Elvis movie reruns?

 

I have never had that reaction before....

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Mojorule]

Send it to Pfox, BK. That'll solve your problem for sure. At least by putting it into perspective. While you're at it, see if you can get a laminate fretboard and bridge fitted.

 

Thanks Dan!

 

Shall I buy a couple of spray cans in black, red and ...what is the other..yellow?

 

 

Though I am pretty sure once you know you have grain runout, you can feel it, sunburst or no....

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Fullmental Alpinist]

BK777,

 

I don't like run out, but if it came on that guitar of yours I'd just shut my eyes and play. That guitar is beautiful!

 

There's an interesting discussion/explanation of runout (and its effect on bridge replacement) on page 145 of Dan Earlywine's book Guitar Player Repair Guide.

 

I was all set to return my Hummingbird the day I got it because I thought someone had burned the lacquer on the top. Fortunately I asked the guys here and they pointed out that it wasn't burned lacquer but was instead silking (thanks Big Kahuna and others!). While I think at times it looks strange, it sounds great.

 

Post more samples and pictures!

 

 

FMA