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Legend Questions


duluthdan

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I include here a description of the “Legend” written by Grinning Elk Music Co. in one of their G-Base for sale listings. For Legend owners I am curious about your guitar - specifically regarding the pick guard, and the case.

 

I had understood that the 06-07 Legends had the pick guard originally under the finish. The Legend I bought used last summer at Music Villa apparently had developed a pick-guard lift / curl / issue that resulted in a warranty repair at Gibson Montana. Jeremy tells me he had over 50 hours into the sanding and refinishing of the Legend I now have. Sounds great, by the way, and I think as the nitro gasses off, this thinner top, it is sounding better and better. I love this guitar, and truth be told, if I had to thin my modest herd down to one, this would be the “Last Man Standing”.

 

Curious questions to Legend owners:

What year was your guitar built? (mine is Dec. ’06)

Is your pick guard under the finish?

If under the finish, any resulting issues?

Do you have the Red-Line case that the guitar originally came with?

 

The Legend I acquired did not come with the original Red-Line case. Not a giant deal, but why do folks sell / trade a high-end guitar like this and then feel the need to keep the case? The J-45 TV I bought was this same way, did not come with the original Cali-Girl brown/pink case??? Again, not a giant deal… just a bit of a pet peave.

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Here is the Legend description, just for us geeks (any inaccuracies? Wish RAR was still with us to confirm/correct)):

 

The Gibson Legends version of the J-45 acoustic guitar handles music from the blues to bluegrass to folk to pop and everything in-between. The Gibson J-45 is one of the most played and cherished acoustic guitars in history. This J-45 remake is hand-crafted by Gibson luthiers using techniques from the J-45 guitar's heyday. The Legend J-45 boasts an Adirondack spruce top and solid mahogany back and sides to produce unmatched mellow, full-bodied tone.

Did you ever have one of the "what if" conversations? Like, "what if I won the lottery?" kind of things. Some 3 years ago the luthiers at Gibson's acoustic guitar plant in Bozeman, Montana, had one of those conversations. It went sort of like this: "What if we could go back in time and build a brand new guitar exactly the way they were built back then?".

 

Well, nothing gets the juices flowing like a challenge like that, so the quest was on: find the best-sounding, original, mint-condition Gibson acoustic guitar from the "vintage years," and build a limited number of guitars today employing the same materials, the same types of tools, same specs, you name it. The plan was to build a new vintage guitar.

 

After a long search, a mint, 1942 Gibson J-45 acoustic guitar was located. Owned by renowned acoustic guitar expert and author Eldon Whitford, the guitar was perfect. It was historically significant, as 1942 was the first year of production for the J-45 guitar. The fact that the J-45 is the number one selling acoustic guitar in Gibson's history didn't hurt either. Mr. Whitford was kind enough to loan the guitar to Gibson for a painstakingly thorough examination. The guitar went through both X-ray and CAT scans to accurately determine the bracing patterns and wood thickness. The glue and finish were chemically analyzed. To make a long story short, Gibson learned everything about that guitar. The result? The Gibson Legend Series 1942 J-45 Acoustic Guitar.

 

Let's start with the body of the J-45 reissue guitar. The Gibson round shoulder body shape is believed by many players to be the best sounding Gibson acoustic guitar ever made. The gently rounded upper bout keeps the highs clean and precise, while the deep lower bout ensures that famous Gibson bottom end. The body is constructed of solid, premium grade Honduran mahogany. The top is solid Adirondack spruce. Both the top and back are gently radiused to provide tension to the wood. This makes the wood vibrate (like a tuned drumhead), and as a result, projection and definition are greatly enhanced.

 

The J-45 guitar's beefy, hand-shaped neck is one piece of select premium grade mahogany, set with Gibson's famous double dovetail neck joint for a lifelong tight fit. Hot hide glue is used in the construction, not synthetic glue like many of today's guitars. Hide glue is organic and thinner. It makes for a better wood-to-wood construction, without a thick layer of adhesive to impede the guitar's vibration.

 

The top bracing is exactly like the original, all carved and shaped by hand, even with the tooling marks still present, just as in 1942. The lightweight, wide "X" bracing ensures a guitar top that vibrates easily and sound that sustains.

 

The reissue J-45 guitar's fingerboard is rare Madagascar rosewood, graced with vintage style frets, .082" wide by .093" high. The fingerboard also has mother-of-pearl dot inlays, again, just like the original. The bridge is Madagascar rosewood, too. Both the nut and saddle are bone to maximize string vibration transfer.

 

The gorgeous Vintage Sunburst color is finished off with vintage style McFadden nitrocellulose lacquer. McFadden lacquer is the thinnest, and lightest lacquer used by Gibson, and it matches the original extremely closely.

 

This iconic instrument is also the guitar that First Lady Michelle Obama presented as a gift to Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, the wife of the French President, during the Obama's first 2009 European trip. Many who have tried the Gibson Legends J-45 Acoustic Guitar think it actually sounds better than the original. This is truly a unique opportunity to own a piece of guitar history.Body: Solid, premium grade Honduran mahogany

 

Top: Solid, hand-selected Adirondack spruce

Bracing: Exact replica of Gibson's 1940s bracing dimensions, down to the saw-blade marks

Neck: Exact replica of Gibson's 1942 large "V" neck. One-piece Honduran mahogany, 24.75" scale

Fingerboard: Madagascar rosewood, with Mother-of-Pearl inlays

Nut: 1.725" wide, bone

Bridge: Madagascar rosewood, bone saddle

Tuners: German "Kluson" nickel-plated tuning machines, custom made white "button" tuners

Pickguard: 1940's style celluloid. "Firestripe" pattern

Finish: Ultra thin "McFadden" nitrocellulose lacquer

Included: Custom, hand made 1940's style "Red Stripe" hardshell case.

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Beautiful guitar Dan! I would like to find one of these and/or one of the 1942 Banner Reissues from last year's small run.

 

I played a Reissue at the NYC Sam Ash a few months ago. Was initially surprised at the huge neck but found that I really liked it. Sadly, the guitar was somewhat underwhelming so I passed on it.

 

I really wish Gibson would make the J-45 with a straight bridge and cut-through long saddle. Comon Gibson, how difficult is that??! :)

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I include here a description of the “Legend” written by Grinning Elk Music Co. in one of their G-Base for sale listings. For Legend owners I am curious about your guitar - specifically regarding the pick guard, and the case.

 

I had understood that the 06-07 Legends had the pick guard originally under the finish. The Legend I bought used last summer at Music Villa apparently had developed a pick-guard lift / curl / issue that resulted in a warranty repair at Gibson Montana. Jeremy tells me he had over 50 hours into the sanding and refinishing of the Legend I now have. Sounds great, by the way, and I think as the nitro gasses off, this thinner top, it is sounding better and better. I love this guitar, and truth be told, if I had to thin my modest herd down to one, this would be the “Last Man Standing”.

 

Curious questions to Legend owners:

What year was your guitar built? (mine is Dec. ’06)

Is your pick guard under the finish?

If under the finish, any resulting issues?

Do you have the Red-Line case that the guitar originally came with?

 

 

Dan, private message sent.

 

Gibson ran out of the red line cases during that time period so some were shipped with the standard case.

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No , they haven't made those for a while and the montana "custom shop" stopped taking custom orders in 2012

 

 

 

JC

 

 

Thanks JCV!

 

 

I ask because it is still on the Gibson website, but I haven't seen anyone mention a new one in a long while.... There was a used one on the Bay the other week, but I'm out!

 

 

BluesKing777.

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When Gibson decided to make the J-45 Legend there was no looking. Ren had seen, studied, and played Eldon's guitar for years. The first prototypes for the guitar were done with the pickguard under the finish. There were probably as many a 24 of these. They were NOT and are NOT part of the Legend series.

 

The guitar tops were finished with a mask to keep the pickguard area unfinished and the Gibson applied clear lacquer to the unfinished top area and put the pickguard down. The lacquer was the only bonding agent used to hold the pickguard down. This first run of protos was sold at a significant discount in price. Significant....from the Legend series. The guitars were not shipped with the redline case. Two reasons for that were that Gibson did not have the cases back from the manufacturer (TKL) and they wanted to distinguish this group from the actual Legend guitars.

 

Almost all of the protos failed because as the pickguards shrunk under the lacquer they came up. The lacquer used to hold them down failed and the finish had to come off the entire top and then the top was refinished with the pickguard glued to the finished lacquer top.

 

The Legend series then went into production with the pickguards over the finish. The Legends were shipped with the redline cases. My redline case was sent to TLK and used as the prototype for the cases. I still have the case but it is pretty rough as they sort of tore it apart in the investigation. It took two years for me to get my case back.

 

The J-45 Legend was not sent to The Sarkozy folks in France. A private foundation bought a Hummingbird for them and that was the guitar that was sent to France by the Obamas. I played that guitar and it was a beauty.

 

I don't know of anyone including Ren and Eldon that thinks the Legends sound as good as Eldon's. They sound great but they will need 50 years of hard playing to get them into the rarified strata of Eldon's guitar. I have played them both and agree that the Legends are remarkable but they don't have the age.

 

I like to think my '43 sounds as good as any. I got this guitar from Eldon and he sold it because he thinks his is better. We have exchanged a lot of banter about this over the years and I must tell you that RAR had a guitar that was as good as mine in every detail. John Thomas thinks RAR's guitar may be the finest but he never played mine or Eldon's. As far as I know I'm the only one that has played all three.

 

This may cause some controversy as to which guitar is what and that will be decided down the road. I know this. The Protos had the pickguard under the finish and no redline case. As far as I know all of the protos needed a refinish and the pickguard applied to the top.

 

If anyone wants to play my guitar side by side with their Legend just come to the Homecoming. I will be happy to bring my guitar and Tony P. from Music Villa can play them both and decide. I doubt that Anne will bring Bob's (RAR) to this years Homecoming but that would be nice.

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Thanks for the clarifications Hogeye, I will stop thrashing about at night over the Redline case! Keeping my fingers crossed for 2015 Homecoming - I would love to hear your '43, but I can already say that I agree with you - that mysterios age factor cannot be duplicated in a new run, not even duplicating down to the saw marks on braces. It just takes time. Lots of time.

 

Anyone else with a Legend series guitar want to tell us about it ?

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Thanks for the clarifications Hogeye, I will stop thrashing about at night over the Redline case! Keeping my fingers crossed for 2015 Homecoming - I would love to hear your '43, but I can already say that I agree with you - that mysterios age factor cannot be duplicated in a new run, not even duplicating down to the saw marks on braces. It just takes time. Lots of time.

 

Anyone else with a Legend series guitar want to tell us about it ?

 

 

Just so you know.... I think you have a prototype for the Legend series and that is a very cool thing indeed. Not very many for sure. I hope to see it at the Homecoming. We'll compare guitars and I'll let you buy me a drink. Ha

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Just so you know.... I think you have a prototype for the Legend series and that is a very cool thing indeed. Not very many for sure. I hope to see it at the Homecoming. We'll compare guitars and I'll let you buy me a drink. Ha

S/N on the one I possess indicate it was shipped in December 2006, is that early, middle, or late in the development? Any idea of numbers of final model J-45 Legends were built/ shipped? Re Homecoming... there's a bar ?

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I had one of the early "Legend" prototype J 45s. It was before Gibson called them Legend series. The pickguard was under the finish and had no issues, it shipped with a standard case. I guess the red-line case came later when Gibson started the Legend series. It was a great guitar, real light weight and very thin finish. A friend of mine bought one of the first Legend series J 45 with red line case, certificate etc. The guard was also under the finish. It was identical to mine, only the headstock taper was not done on mine.

It was a great guitar, but I never liked the looks of the pickguard. It was glued onto the plain spruce top and no sunburst was sprayed over the guard.

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J45fan: Interesting. Do you still have the guitar?

 

I'm curious to find out when your prototype Legend was built - wonder if you still have the Serial Number, if not the guitar.

 

YY (1st and 5th digit) = year

DDD (digits 2-4) = day of the year,

001=Jan 1st, 365=Dec 31st.

NNN (digits 6-8) = rank of instrument for that day.

 

You indicate that your prototype did NOT have a tapered headstock Did it still have the full "C" profile neck?

 

Do you by any chance have any pictures you can share?

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I've got an esrly LOO Legend it has a signed C of A in the black folder, but no date, but a hand written serial number. I'm guessing it's about 06-08. Pickguard under the finish, but no sign of lifting and it look super cool. Very gentle smooth bevel and dark burst. Gold script logo (no banner) no orange or white label. When picked up used at the Podium I got a good deal. There were a few TVs, Blues Kings and blond working man models floating around in LA at the time (about 2 or 3 years ago). None of them had the big 1 3/4" wide Baseball Bat V Neck I wanted and got with the Legend. It feels great in the hand. My favorite guitar for flatpicking, or hybrid picking jazz, swing, country or blues. Use Tony Rice Monels.... They're probably closer to what they used back in the day and pretty smooth and mellow. Just don't care for PB or Bright Bronze. Came with Red Line Case. Whilst it looks good, it is VERY heavy and uncomfortable. A friend has an original Red Line (late 40's - early 50's) and it's much lighter. They used a harder, thinner material, back then with a slicker type of tolex, so I scored a recent used Blues King gig bag off C/L that fits perfect and looks good. Pale yellow, black trim, Gibson Logo. That's what I use if taking it out. At home it sits in the Red Line. I think the reissue Red Line cases are over rated, although the Standard black acoustic cases are also heavy. I think the limited edition BROWN cases are probably the best OHC's IMHO. Though I'm not sure about the weight. The old cases, just seem so nice and light. I'd like to pick up a fake alligator skin, soft shell Gibson case from the 50's. They seem like a nice fit, look period correct and are LIGHT. I have back issues, and can't stand lugging a heavy case into a crowded coffee shop, or bar.sometimes parking 2 blocks away. My Legend is in my avatar. Update: according to duluthdan's serial number info, it's from May 2007.

Swang On,

Stefano Sunburst

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SS - I cannot take credit for the SN research - its off the Homprovide vinatage guitar site. I'd be curious to see a pic of that pikguard 'under finish" as you describe. Monels eh? I have a set around somewhere, next string change I may try the on the 45 Legend.

 

The full profile neck is a wonder - I think the added mass contributs to the full bodied rounded tone. Impossible to describe sound I guess, But the difference between the Legend and the TV is obvious. If I were good at recording and playing, I'd post up a comparison of the two, just for fun.

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SS - I cannot take credit for the SN research - its off the Homprovide vinatage guitar site. I'd be curious to see a pic of that pikguard 'under finish" as you describe. Monels eh? I have a set around somewhere, next string change I may try the on the 45 Legend.

 

The full profile neck is a wonder - I think the added mass contributs to the full bodied rounded tone. Impossible to describe sound I guess, But the difference between the Legend and the TV is obvious. If I were good at recording and playing, I'd post up a comparison of the two, just for fun.

 

Yeah daluth gotta agree, the full profile necks on the Legends are one of the unique selliing points. That big hand full of neck Just feels so right. Along with the vintage thin finish, rectangular bridge, light wieght, old style burst, etc. Kind of looking for a J45 legend, if I could get another great deal. Also tempted by the Southern Jumbo Banner RI they did in conjunction with the John Thomas Gibson Gals book. It also has a nice big baseball bat neck, no neck binding, rectangular bridge, etc. only trouble is, they made very few and they don't pop up on the used market very often. I'm very happy with my L00. It has worked well every time I played out at jams including at a local BG Festival last summer, jamming with a full 5 piece band.. The other players had a 1934 D18, Gibson Mastertone Banjo, vintage F5 mandolin. My L00 held up volume wise and fit into the mix perfect, even though my BG playing is pretty rusty. Had a great time.

Swang on,

Stefano Sunburst

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So you asked about totals: 06---87

07---28

08---11

09----1

 

These are shipping totals. They don't make any distinction between the first batch of protos and the regular run. I believe this is a total if 127 guitars. As was stated not all the under finish pickguards lifted but a big enough percentage did causing them to change over.

 

Because it is Gibson and they can do anything they want at any time you will probably find all sorts of neck anomalies and such. I believe that they all have the bigger neck profile and I would agree with the assessment that the bigger neck contributes to the power of the instrument. As to the headstock taper? Bet this will be a big issue in 50 years when folks gather in quiet back rooms and discuss the added value of the tapered headstock over the straight.

 

Yes there is a bar at the Homecoming. As we all know Bozeman is a college town and there is an over abundance of very attractive women. The college summer sessions are full of young,lady school teachers working on their advanced degrees and the bar at the Grantree is the most popular places to find them. They roam the town in packs and can be aggressive when it comes to men. Needless to say they just love musicians and if you wander into the bar/ restaurant with a guitar case you will never have to buy a drink. The poor love starved ladies are all about buying you drinks and trying to pick you up. You have been warned.

 

This is one of the little secrets that the Homecoming regulars don't like to talk about as they like the attention and don't want any more competition than necessary. As they say bringing your wife to Homecoming is like bringing a ham sandwich to a banquet.

 

Well now that I have alienated all the ladies I will shut the hell up and play my guitar.

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I've got an esrly LOO Legend it has a signed C of A in the black folder, but no date, but a hand written serial number. I'm guessing it's about 06-08. Pickguard under the finish, but no sign of lifting and it look super cool. Very gentle smooth bevel and dark burst. Gold script logo (no banner) no orange or white label.

 

Stefano Sunburst

 

 

Interesting. My L-OO Legend from 2010 also has the gold script logo, while I believe most have the white script logo, which would have been period-correct for 1937. It's one oddity in an otherwise really classy reproduction, right down to the cloth side stays on the inside.

 

Mine had a CoA just in an 8 1/2 x 11 envelope with a glassine front. Quite a bit cheaper than the standard CoA folder. Other than the serial number, there was a date on the final inspection card

 

I agree that it's a great guitar.

 

By the way, the model number is HL37VSNH1.

 

For some reason, the dealer I bought it from listed it as a 2007, when the serial number and inspection card clearly show it to be a 2010.

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So you asked about totals: 06---87

07---28

08---11

09----1

 

These are shipping totals. They don't make any distinction between the first batch of protos and the regular run. I believe this is a total if 127 guitars. As was stated not all the under finish pickguards lifted but a big enough percentage did causing them to change over.

 

Yes there is a bar at the Homecoming.

 

This is one of the little secrets that the Homecoming regulars don't like to talk about as they like the attention and don't want any more competition than necessary. As they say bringing your wife to Homecoming is like bringing a ham sandwich to a banquet.

 

Well now that I have alienated all the ladies I will shut the hell up and play my guitar.

Interesting production figures. The S/N on mine dates it to December 18, 2006 (03526003) and I believed after speaking with some of the Gibson folk who did some restorative work due to the pick guard, that it was under the finish. Perhaps not. But, in any event, December 2006 places it near the end of the year, and so maybe not an early prototype.

 

J45 Nick - do you have a S/N off your L-oo?

 

I am obviously hanging around the wrong crowd at Homecoming. Usually jam until midnight, and then crawl to our beds. We're all getting a bit old, er ah, 'vintage'.

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Bob (RAR) does have a J-45 from the first batch of prototypes. The pickguard is under the lacquer. It did start lifting, but then pretty much stopped before it was a problem. It's a great sounding guitar. Sounds a bit like his war time banner's little brother. After playing it for a while the dulled finish got all shined up and started looking like a normal Gibson finish.

Anne

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Bob (RAR) does have a J-45 from the first batch of prototypes. The pickguard is under the lacquer. It did start lifting, but then pretty much stopped before it was a problem. It's a great sounding guitar. Sounds a bit like his war time banner's little brother. After playing it for a while the dulled finish got all shined up and started looking like a normal Gibson finish.

Anne

Anne, is this the guitar that Bob and Dave in SLC were deep in a comparison with a couple of years ago at Homecoming? I like that VOS finish, sad that they so easily star to shine up. If its not too much trouble - might you have the serial number of that instrument around? If its an early prototype, would b interesting to see how early in "06 the Legends were conceived.

 

Nick - yep I'd agree 2010, squarely.

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J45fan: Interesting. Do you still have the guitar?

 

I'm curious to find out when your prototype Legend was built - wonder if you still have the Serial Number, if not the guitar.

 

YY (1st and 5th digit) = year

DDD (digits 2-4) = day of the year,

001=Jan 1st, 365=Dec 31st.

NNN (digits 6-8) = rank of instrument for that day.

 

You indicate that your prototype did NOT have a tapered headstock Did it still have the full "C" profile neck?

 

Do you by any chance have any pictures you can share?

 

No, I sold it. It was a great sounding instrument, but I never really bonded with it.

I have to look, if I still have the invoice with the serial number. But I am sure it was built early 2006.

I have many pictures including the headstock. I will post them.

Yes, it had a massive C shape neck. Great feeling neck.

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