All Laminate Geetars

[flatbaroque]

I came across an interesting old cheapy epiphone on our local ebay. A 70's japanese made jumbo with a 1 3/4 nut.

It was described as all laminate with lam spruce top and lam maple sides.

On a laminated guitar is the spruce and maple just a veneer that has no effect on sound quality?

Or are the laminates ...laminates of the described tone wood.

I'm totally ignorant of "qualities" of laminate on guitars.I guess there is good and bad?

[milod]

Basically a well-made laminate should be fine for guitar purposes as long as one realizes that on a flattop, it's going to sound pretty much the same until it is too worn to play any more. Laminates on archtops are rather different and the archtop itself is a rather different creature.

 

The sound quality IMHO will vary a bit with the type of wood and quality of the laminate but not as much as a solid wood guitar.

 

Ditto the fancy fiberboard used in lower-end Martin guitars.

 

The advantage, though, is somewhat less climate effect. That's a good reason to consider them and I know some folks who figure the fiberboard Martins with what amounts to a high quality plywood neck are better in winter and other fast-changing climates than an all-wood guitar regardless that technically it may not sound as good as a higher-quality instrument.

 

m

[zombywoof]

There are essentially two types of laminate. The "good stuff" is even slices of the same wood glued together. The not so good stuff will have a nice veneer over some kind of cheap filler. Even the better quality laminate tough tends to be stiff and will not transmit vibration as well as solid wood of a similar thickness. It just does not flex enough.

 

The only guitars where laminate construction is the norm are resonators where sound also comes from the cone.

[milod]

Zombie...

 

waitaminit... How about the ES175, ES335, etc., etc., when it comes to archtops.

 

Okay, that's a different sort of laminate.

 

I'm personally not so anti laminate on flattops, but they're at their best such as on Epiphone's workmanlike $1-500 flattop guitars that can/will handle climate a bit better than an equivalent all-wood instrument. They also sound and play very nicely compared to other brands in the same price range. They're not, however, in the same league as a Gibson but - neither are the Martin fiberboard guitars that carry the Martin name.

 

Gotta figure too that a lotta pros like the Ovation guitars that have what amounts to a more or less fiberglass bowl behind a wood top of various qualities. I got two of them in the early '70s because the company was a real pioneer in AE type instruments. Worked well enough doing old time and 'grass all acoustic for the steel string and all kinds of fingerstyle material on the nylon string version.

 

A lot comes down to what a picker values - and his/her pocketbook. Frankly I got my one and only solidbody simply because it kept working better in the middle of a Northern Plains winter in North America when taking a guitar to gigs. I much dislike bolt-on neck Fenders too - but their basses are doggone good instruments. So... pay yer money and take yer choice.

 

When I got my Ovations, they were in the Gibson/Martin price range - but the Gib/Mar instruments weren't AE - nor was I aware of any other nylon strung "electric" at the time.

 

m

[philfish]

Timely thread for me as I have a Epiphone EJ-200 arriving tomorrow

Never had an all laminate, I've been buying a few Epi's to keep my high

end GAS in check. If I keep this up I could have afforded a higher end guitar

[GuitarLight]

I believe laminates can make perfectly fine guitars. What they are made of is anybodies guess. Many Epiphones are laminated and many of them sound as good or better than some of the wildly over priced solid wood guitars.

 

There has always been a great deal of talk about laminates. Often you will be told that "it depends on the quality of laminates used." As well as if the laminates are made of mahogany or rosewood layers...or just cheap plywood. No one ever gives you that answer however because few guitar makers will tell you what the laminates consist of. ...often using smoke and mirror names such as... "Select mahogany" ...a phrase designed by guitar makers to keep guitar buyers completely in the dark as to the actual nature of the woods used.

 

In short a good laminated guitar can sound delightful. A solid top will make it sound better in tone. ....Epiphone, based on the good tone that appears to come from them, seems to be quality three layer laminated back and sides such as.... three thin layers of Mahogany tightly glued together....the middle layer also being mahogany.

 

If the middle or center lamination (the one makers know you can't see) is made of plywood, back yard fence garbage or other scraps..it will likely sound lifeless and dead. It would be nice if makers were up front about exactly HOW they make their lamination's...but they don't want to reveal it..most likely because some of them pull the switch and use the cheap and bad ply board layers without informing the guitar buyer. That way they can continue to charge the same price for less quality wood. Does Epiphone do this?....ask them...but I suspect you might not get an honest answer.

 

Remember one thing when you go to buy an acoustic guitar...the word "SELECT" in front of the wood mentioned, means that you can not know what you are being sold, and can only hope for the best. Good luck! I believe Epiphone does do a good job at laminating backs and sides...examples of fine Epi's.. The TEXAN...The AJ220S....The Epiphone DOVE....The Epiphone HUMMINGBIRD, The Epi EJ200SCE, and others....these all are laminated, sound good, and have solid tops to sweeten the tone for you. Best wishes.. GL

[milod]

Have had, and still have some laminate side/back Epis. Even a PR5e that has a lam top.

 

Sound fine to me. In fact, I'm not so sure that they don't do as well as a "solid wood" guitar if they're AE and run through a board and played with technique that works with the AE pup and electronics. Certainly better than any straight acoustic played standing with poor mike technique by the player.

 

m

[BluesKing777]

I came across an interesting old cheapy epiphone on our local ebay. A 70's japanese made jumbo with a 1 3/4 nut.

It was described as all laminate with lam spruce top and lam maple sides.

On a laminated guitar is the spruce and maple just a veneer that has no effect on sound quality?

Or are the laminates ...laminates of the described tone wood.

I'm totally ignorant of "qualities" of laminate on guitars.I guess there is good and bad?

 

 

 

What do you want it for, FB? To take to the beach house?

 

 

If you must have a lam guitar, it is better to get one like the newer Epi's with the solid sitka top and Lam B/S - they sound good - I had an EL-00 and also a Martin with solid top and weirdo lam b/s.

 

Gone to a better home if you get the drift! [mellow]

 

 

For you, yourself, I would put the equivalent money of the the Laminate into you OM set up/ J45 setup - pure joy could result!

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[zombywoof]

Zombie...

 

waitaminit... How about the ES175, ES335, etc., etc., when it comes to archtops.

 

 

Again sound here is generated by something else other than the body - in this case pickups. The laminate is less prone to feedback. This is why Gibson quickly switched from a solid to laminate top on the J-160E. . In acoustic archtops the pecking order is carved solid top followed by pressed solid top with laminate pressed tops at the bottom.

[flatbaroque]

Thanks for the info chaps. I know more now than I did yesterday.

Wasn't buying BK, just browsing and a little curious - not craving a lam. guitar.

I did get to play a bunch of new epiphones at Allans recently. I was a bit interested in the EL-00 Pro and the Caballero reissue copies. But the ones they had weren't much chop at all.They are called up as 1 11/16 nut but seemed narrower than normal. Must be the string spacing - and sounded nothing much.

I think my favourite of the current epiphones I've come across is the I.B. Texan.I've played a few of those that I'd rate well.

Cheers

[zombywoof]

I have to agree on the IB Texan. Everyone I have played has sounded great and the price is enticing as all get out.

[milod]

For what it's worth, my main "play out if I'm doing my own thing solo" acoustic is an all Lam Epi PR5e.

 

I never play "out" without plugging in, and haven't since I got my Ovation AEs back in the early '70s.

 

A cupla years ago I did a cowboy music gig with it plugged through a relatively small PA rig - and in the audience were some Brit video guys I'd come to know in another "story." But the two had done music video type work and I asked them to listen to the guitar for sound quality.

 

Both said the guitar that they didn't recognize by brand or price, sounded excellent and good enough for any vid. Then again, I'm a gentle fingerpicker.

 

I think it would have become harsh, no matter what was done on the board, if I were a heavy flatpick strummer, even just a heavy finger strummer.

 

I have never had feedback problems with it in theaters up around 500 capacity or so running through the board - and guys with far more expensive "name" acoustic guitars have had problems running through the mikes.

 

Too, the guy running the board for that cowboy music gig is a rancher who has been using a couple of 1950s Gibson CF100s, both with mag pups, since they were new - and both sound as though perfectly miked instead of using a mag "electric guitar" pup.

 

So it seems to me that a very well set up flattop "AE" can sound very good whether an inexpensive laminate or a vintage Gibson, if played appropriately and if run appropriately through the board.

 

"We" pickers can argue this or that on tone, but getting tone to an audience, whether on stage or recording, is not always the same game. Too, an audience mostly is listening to music, not critiquing an individual instrument's "tone."

 

Frankly if Gibson made a 24 3/4 scale all wood version more or less of the PR5e for a cupla grand, I'd own one. They don't. Neither does Martin - and I'd rather have the Epi than a Taylor bolt on neck instrument of somewhat similar dimensions and the longer scale. For three to 8 times the cash, and nothing that I'm more comfortable with playing in terms of playing geometry... I'll stick with the Epi and a similarly-sized short-scale archtop that - yup, has a far higher cash value. The "better" guitar just ain't a flattop. Then again, another friend, a rancher, plays a 1950s ES125 for his own "cowboy" music gigs - and it's the heavier laminate typical of archtops too, as is the lousy old and highly unsuccessful (???) ES175.

 

m

[Jayyj]

The other guitarist in my band has one of those 70s Epis, a J200 sized all laminated guitar. He has an LG0 as well, access to my collection of Fyldes and vintage Gibsons and to the bass player's Lowden, but that Epi is the one he always brings to the studio. Even as an unabashed guitar snob and not much of a fan of jumbo guitars, I have to admit it's a good sounding guitar.

[Priority Four]

I saw a video with Paul Reed Smith (with Tony P maybe) where he spoke of making the guitar like a speaker cabinet with a most of the movement on the top and a very stiff back. Seems like a Lam back and sides might male that work. My beach guitar is a Yamaha fg700. Solid top laminate everything else. Very loud guitar.

[Dave F]

.......heavier laminate typical of archtops too, as is the lousy old and highly unsuccessful (???) ES175.

 

m

 

Mine is fairly heavy and I like it ;)

 

Is that what you're playing in your avatar?

 

[milod]

Me????

 

Oh, heavens no. Everyone knows that laminates are horrid, lousy, give terrible sound and will fall to pieces. Why in the world would I keep playing a laminate guitar I got some 40+ years ago that's so horrid?

 

<chortle>

 

m

[Murph]

Timely thread for me as I have a Epiphone EJ-200 arriving tomorrow

 

 

My daughters EJ-200CE has a solid spruce top.

 

I think I'm positive of this.........

[philfish]

Murph I saw that the EJ-200CE are solid tops

The EJ-200 Artist is what they call select spruce and select maple

in other words laminate.

The world of entry level guitars has come a long way since I was a kid.

But that was a long time ago

[John A]

I came across an interesting old cheapy epiphone on our local ebay. A 70's japanese made jumbo with a 1 3/4 nut.

It was described as all laminate with lam spruce top and lam maple sides.

On a laminated guitar is the spruce and maple just a veneer that has no effect on sound quality?

Or are the laminates ...laminates of the described tone wood.

I'm totally ignorant of "qualities" of laminate on guitars.I guess there is good and bad?

 

I used to have an all laminate Madeira (Guild's Asian import brand in the 70s) that was pretty crummy. Not very loud, and with an overall clanky sound. OTOH, I have a Gibson Blue Ridge, which is laminated (rosewood veneer on maple) back and sides, with a solid spruce top. It's a very good sounding guitar. As I understand it, the back and sides mainly reflect the sound generated by the top, and are damped by your body so they don't contribute a lot of vibration/resonance to the sound. So laminated B/S can be very good. OTOH, laminated tops are at best OK sounding but quiet; at worst, crummy sounding and quiet. Having straight, properly aligned grain is important to getting a top that vibrates properly. I guess, in theory, a laminated top could be engineered to have ideal resonant properties, but that would probably make it more expensive than solid wood.

 

John

[Murph]

 

The world of entry level guitars has come a long way since I was a kid.

 

 

Ain't that the truth.

[Murph]

And another thing.

 

My "Custom Shop" ES-339 is laminate and it's the bomb.

 

The bomb I tell ya........

[Wetdog]

My Joe Pass Epi is all laminate and sounds pretty decent plugged in for a cheapy jazz box. This is primarily because I upgraded the pickups to Gibson '57 Vintage Style Humbuckers. My '59 330 is all laminate and is a monster blues guitar. These were also used by the fine jazzer Freddy Green. However, the 330 is a thin all hollow body and the top had flattened out. I blocked it up inside so now I guess it could be considered a 335.

 

As far as acoustics go I've never played a flat top or F-hole laminate top that had much tone. They always sound pretty tinny to my ear. I own an old Yamaha lam and a no name Martin copy and they both sound pretty thin. They both had their tops bulging at the bridge so I did the cheapy fix and installed archtop type tail pieces. Suitable for beach guitars or to take camping. F-hole laminates are what IMHO, gave acoustic archtops a bad name. Those old Harmonies and Kays are pretty much junk tone-wise for a serious player. If you don't believe me compare one to a solid hand carved archtop like my L-7.

 

That being said, Michael Collins builds very high end all laminate acoustic Selmer Maccaferri (gypsy jazz) boxes that go for big bucks. I never played one but they reportedly have fine tone and are very loud. B)

[milod]

As for archtops...

 

Quite a few if not all ES versions of Gibson are laminates as far as I know. Have been at least since the beginning of the electric pup era and feedback concerns. The laminate archtop will not boom out like a carved solid top, nor as a flattop - but when electrified either at the factory or, as was common, by an owner with an add-on (like me), they also were less likely to feed back than a carved solid top.

 

More than a few 175s, 125s, etc., from roughly 60 years ago are still not only in good shape, but are being played regularly.

 

I even have an early-mid '50s Harmony single pup archtop (granted, one of their better ones) that is as playable today as when it was new - yes, laminate. Another archtop, one from the early '70s, is in marvelous condition and super-playable.

 

Meanwhile, thousands of solid wood flattops and archtops have split, bowed, and whatever you want to call various sorts of "decay" through those same years. Some is luck of the draw, some is what happens to musical instruments given weather, travel, gigging - and perhaps string choice that may have been unwise regardless of claims of "better tone"...

 

A well-made laminate flattop likely will sound as good in 10 years as the day it was purchased - probably better when new strings were added to the factory offerings, perhaps better with a different saddle or nut; certainly quite nice if it's an AE with appropriate strings. Again, very often as an AE, they'll sound much better than a far more expensive flattop miked on stage.

 

As a purely acoustic instrument, solid wood tops and in theory all-wood sides and back should age and offer change - improvement? - in tone.

 

Whether laminates such as used on Epi flattops are better than the fiberboard used by Martin may be a point of contention. But to me there's little difference other than shape, a degree of "tone," and specific composition between those fiberboard Martins and an Ovation of the same price range. One might note that Martin and/or its purveyors have noted the benefits of an all fiberboard Martin, top included, in varying weather conditions and such, compared to solid wood.

 

The specific instrument undergoing the vicissitudes of age and climate and use will react differently even from the instrument made next to it on the line. Each is an individual. Heavens, even some of the cigar box Stellas have survived regardless many literally warped into garbage.

 

I have several all or part laminate Epi flattops; all of my archtops are laminates. No problems with any - even the one that's past age 60, other than the typical concerns of adjustments with changes in the climate in which they live, string changes, etc.

 

On the other hand, all of my flattops are AE. All either run through a board or an AE amp.

 

There certainly is, or may be, a valid point of pride in ownership of an all-wood guitar, and hopes that it will sound better with age, but there was a reason Gibson came out with the ES175 and others as laminate guitars, and it wasn't necessarily to be "cheap" but rather first to be an electric, not acoustic instrument.

 

m

[Wetdog]

Okay, I hear what you are saying. I have pups on my flattops as well. My criteria for that is to have my awesome sounding Martins be a little louder but maintain their rich tone. Acoustics and electrics are different animals. When it comes to archtops, few have played a really good acoustic archtop so it is impossible to A-B them. Laminate archtop tops vibrate less than carved tops hence less feedback. And yes lams are more stable in funky weather. But the trade-off is less acoustic tone. For some that is no biggie, but for me that is what it is all about. If I want an electric sound I play my ES 330 or my Joe Pass Epi. If I want that incredible acoustic sound I use one of my Martins, my '49 Gibson L-7 or my '37 (pre-Gibson)Zenith Epi. Okay so I'm a tone snob.

 

Ever heard of a concert violinist playing an electrified laminated instrument? No, they play hand carved archtop f-hole master instruments built 400 years ago because they have the TONE. That's why hand carved archtops like Gibsons, and old pre-Gibson epi's command the big bucks. DeAngelicos, DeAcquistas, and Benedettos among many others, go for tens of thousands of dollars because they were carved by master craftsmen and have incredibly rich acoustic tone. For some, like me, it's all about tone. B)

[milod]

I can't argue that in a sense, and yet...

 

The ES175 was designed for tone, but to lessen feedback in its era. Yeah, guys will pay bundles for those handcarved instruments and yet... there was dumb old Joe Pass mostly playing a 175, and I never figured his town was all that bad.

 

Too, having played in my share of saloons, I made a conscious choice back in the early '70s when Ovation came out with their first AE, that not only was it a lot handier to use the AE and mess a bit with the amp and/or PA, than to try to mess with a mike. And on stage backing up batches of old time fiddlers in their competition, as long as their choice of accompaniment style could sorta be heard, they didn't care much either. In fact, ask anyone in those old-time audiences, including other pickers, who was playing the better guitar and you'd generally realize nobody thought much about it.

 

I also recall being backstage a long, long time ago watching Johnny Cash with an acoustic and Mother Maybelle with an archtop acoustic and watching how generally their guitars were mostly for show until some special use was called for, then they'd be brought to a mike. That was in as much of a "pro" situation as one might imagine. But... even then it wasn't "tone," even for Mother Maybelle's landmark picking that functionally was the same as playing the autoharp. It was for the music as a whole. (It was fantastic, btw.)

 

The archtop in the first place was designed to be loud and heavy on mids to work with early recording and later radio. Most was rhythm chording and that was the tone criteria until the electric stuff was invented: "Can we hear the rhythm chording?" That's also a reason you had the Eddie Peabody types for ages...

 

m