kidblast Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 this topic has almost been as much fun as the "Guitar Center Blows" post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8_4thesh0w Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The adaptor in question was never meant to defeat connecting to ground; in fact it was designed for just the opposite. Most either have a green wire with lug or a copper lug for the express purpose of providing a connection to ground where none is available in the supply circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Hum is pretty much normal as it is coming from your electrical wiring. Drop that 2 prong plug (or prepare to possibly get killed) and use this: http://tinyurl.com/pzwyrf4 Your electrician should have his license yanked for what he showed you. At best you should never use him again. well, I took your advice as this was also posted on the previous page, I bought one and tested it Tuesday, it did absolutely nothing to reduce the hum, but thanks anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sitedrifter Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 add a noise gate then. I till kill the noise from your guitar until you play. You can fine tune it so it does not clip long notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 The adaptor in question was never meant to defeat connecting to ground; in fact it was designed for just the opposite. Most either have a green wire with lug or a copper lug for the express purpose of providing a connection to ground where none is available in the supply circuit. thank you, 5 stars for the correct answer! as the OP of this thread I am now into day two of blissful virtually zero amp hum by the way, and I don't have the time to go into a long explanation, but I spoke with my electrician this morning after reading all the replies, I read to him a number of your posts cautioning about me being killed, how so very very dangerous this is, and how he should have his license yanked, so on and so on.... he just gave a short polite laugh and said to me that he has known my wife and I for 20 years and would never, ever suggest anything "dangerous", he then started into a very detailed explanation of exactly why using the cheap little plug adaptor present absolutely no risk or danger to me UNLESS he said I would happen to for example be playing amplified in my metal bathtub, or playing standing on a wet concrete floor, and then in both instances the amp completely blew through all of its own internal grounding and shielding. He pointed out that I play in my house with wooden floors and carpet and as such am I am in no "danger" now guys, I know you all mean well and I know you all are probably much better guitar players than I am but I am afraid I am going to ignore all your predictions of my death because, well, to be polite, I don't think you are at all as professionally qualified as much electrician . One more thing, my guy is not your normal run of the mill master electrician (who would still know more about this than all of you combined, no offense) but he is one the top in the United States, so much so that he works for Los Alamos Nuclear Lab here in New Mexico and spent three months last summer in Europe helping out on the Large Partical Collider. Ok? So these comments about him being a "fool" or should have his license "yanked", etc, are frankly, well, asinine at best. Finally,I want to thank all of you, seriously, for your concern about my being killed and I know you all mean well, but everyone is an expert about everything on the internet.... I wish I had never offered my easy and cheap solution to amp hum because of all the emotional killing hysteria it has generated, I wish I could take it all back. Ok, now go ahead and start flaming me, telling me how stupid I am and how you know more than one of the best electrician's in the US, this is a guitar forum after all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Hum is pretty much normal as it is coming from your electrical wiring. Drop that 2 prong plug (or prepare to possibly get killed) and use this: http://tinyurl.com/pzwyrf4 Your electrician should have his license yanked for what he showed you. At best you should never use him again. well, I took your advice as this was also posted on the previous page, I bought one and tested it Tuesday, it did absolutely nothing to reduce the hum, but thanks anyway Right. Did you read the questions at the bottom of the Amazon page? Those two right there should be telling you and your electrician something. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 delete, posted twice by mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 as the OP of this thread I am now into day two of blissful virtually zero amp hum I'm in year 17 of blissful virtually zero amp hum. Your electrician has never taken time out from Los Alamos to look at my house, and there are no 89 cent ground eliminating devices in my house, anywhere, on anything. Tell him I said Thanks For Not Stopping By! rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sitedrifter Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Your electrician is an idiot and you listening to him makes you a fool. NEC: The prong will not be cut off, nor will an adapter be used to allow a three-prong plug to fit a two-prong receptacle, since this negates the third wire grounding protection. Go ahead and play with fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Hum is pretty much normal as it is coming from your electrical wiring. Drop that 2 prong plug (or prepare to possibly get killed) and use this: http://tinyurl.com/pzwyrf4 Your electrician should have his license yanked for what he showed you. At best you should never use him again. Right. Did you read the questions at the bottom of the Amazon page? Those two right there should be telling you and your electrician something. rct +++1 Be sure, John, nobody here wants to flame you. It's all about your safety, no more and no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yes, by all means safety is all anyone was talking about. Good Luck, stay safe, rock-on!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 UNLESS he said I would happen to for example be playing amplified in my metal bathtub, or playing standing on a wet concrete floor, and then in both instances the amp completely blew through all of its own internal grounding and shielding I don't want to perpetuate an argument or sling mud because I think it is cementing your current view which is flawed and I have serious concerns. I'd suggest asking your electrician if he is aware that amplifiers dump amplified signal to ground and if he answers yes, ask him to explain in detail why it's OK that there is no ground. I'd also ask him if he knows how vacuum tubes work and that a failure (inevitable over time) can momentarily dump 400+ volts, DC (much more dangerous than AC) to ground. That's through you as things stand, that's almost certain death. The fact that he spoke of ”internal grounding" is nonesence that a primary school lesson on electricity should show to be nonesence. Ground, or earth as we call it, is exactly what it sounds like, a connection to earth, the ground, the planet. The "internal grounding" is not grounding unless the amp is connected to ground. It's utter nonsense. Standing in a metal bath tub would make no difference to this risk unless the bathtub was grounded and even then, it would only slightly increase the strength of your own ground. The fact the he said "unless you're standing on a wet concrete floor" is ridiculous. While that may well increase your ground, if 400+ vdc has no where to go but through you into your wood floor believe me, it will go that way, even through your rubber soled shoes, carpet, floor and a 6 inch air gap. I sincerely hope you made that up because if an electrician actually said any of those things I'm afraid he is not the expert you believe he is. I always chuckle when I read people qualifying their credentialls on the interweb to bolster their argument but i dont care if i sound silly, life is at risk so....Having qualified as an electrician (albeit 20 years ago and now I'd need a part P cert to practice in the UK), then worked in electro-mechanical engineering (Canon) for a number of years and having built all sorts, including amplifiers over a period of 20 years i know quite enough to know what you claim he said is nonsense. Please tell me you made it up? The good news is we now know the hum from your amp requires a connection to ground to be heard which narrows down the cause a lot if you'd like to reopen that conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 detailed explanation of exactly why using the cheap little plug adaptor present absolutely no risk or danger to me UNLESS he said I would happen to for example be playing amplified in my metal bathtub, or playing standing on a wet concrete floor, and then in both instances the amp completely blew through all of its own internal grounding and shielding. He pointed out that I play in my house with wooden floors and carpet and as such am I am in no "danger" Nobody's trying to get 5 stars here for being a smarty pants. Besides, when you die, you can't give out stars any more. You're buddy may be an electrician but he doesn't have much experience with amps. Any amp tech who's worth much is smarter than him. This is a common issue that is normally resolved without breaking code. You can touch a live power line as long as you're not grounded. Big deal. That doesn't mean that appliance grounding isn't necessary. All you need is some kind of short and you're toast. Your electrician should know how to eliminate the hum without eliminating ground. What happens when you touch something grounded and you go to heaven. Why not eliminate the source of the hum instead of ungrounding the amp so you don't have to deal with it properly. Ask your electrician that. You asked, we told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I'm going to have to risk sounding arrogant here. The 2 people you should really listen to here are BadBluesPlayer and myself. We both build amps, that's well chronicled on this forum, and we both know far more than enough to know that what you have now is a very dangerous situation. Please spend 5 minutes playing devils advocate with yourself and assume we're right, then think about the consequences and consider if the risk is really worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sitedrifter Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Did you ever think it could be your Amp? I did not see (could have missed it) that you tried the guitar/amp at a different location with different results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 This is in no way arrogant, Farns. Knowing that valve/tube amps transform voltages up, not down, and knowing as well that every internal voltage is referred to circuit ground, will forcibly lead to the only reasonable consequence: Circuit ground must reliably be referred to environmental ground in an appropriate manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 As far as electritians go, there is "certified" and there is "qualified". Personally, I can not say which is which in Mr. Norton's case. I can't say for sure if he is correct, or incorrect. But what I can say from where I am, having NOT seen the wiring myself, I would not be "qualified" to say the electrician is wrong here. I will offer a few comments: Many electrical panels in many homes are wired with the neutral and the ground at the same place. "Lifting" the ground from the plug and sending it through the neutral is no less safe in this case. What determines safe in this case is that the plugs in the house are wired correctly. So...a little surprised that so many are sure something is wrong here. No one has seen the panel or asked about it. No one, that is, except the sparky that Mr. Notes had to the house. The other point, is about the amp, any amp: If the amp is NOT wired correctly or has a problem that makes it dangerous, proper wiring of the house or the plug in the house will not solve that. It can shock you from either side of the phase of the wiring. It can also shock you regardless of a properly working ground or breaker. Breakers protect from the user being shocked from the panel, NOT the equipment plugged into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 If I advised you to unground your amp and you got shocked, you'd have my house in no time. Nice try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 If I advised you to unground your amp and you got shocked, you'd have my house in no time. Nice try! I don't really understand... All the uproar is basically telling Mr. Norton his electrician is "wrong". All I am saying is that unless on of us who is QUALIFIED and has SEEN the house and the main panel, nobody can say the electrician is wrong. Nobody is really telling anyone to "unground" an amp. No houses being exchanged. No possible lawsuits here. The only thing I posted here are points to point out that there are many reasons why we could ALL be wrong, unless....wait for it..... WE HAVE SEEN THE HOUSE WIRING!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I don't really understand... All the uproar is basically telling Mr. Norton his electrician is "wrong". All I am saying is that unless on of us who is QUALIFIED and has SEEN the house and the main panel, nobody can say the electrician is wrong. Nobody is really telling anyone to "unground" an amp. No houses being exchanged. No possible lawsuits here. The only thing I posted here are points to point out that there are many reasons why we could ALL be wrong, unless....wait for it..... WE HAVE SEEN THE HOUSE WIRING!!!!!!!! I don't have any hum. I don't use ground defeating 89 cent gizmos made to help prevent one from paying an electrician to tell them not to use them because needing one to eliminate noise in something is an indication that there is something wrong. They didn't go all three prong spaded connections so we could cut off the grounds. The outlets are wired one side hot and one side neutral for a reason, crossed ones can be the reason you get some serious hum on certain types of stuff. Crossed outlets can also take out grandma when she goes to get the doilies out of the washer. I have most definitely taken my licks from too many mics on opposing grounds to too many amps. It can be most unpleasant, but it should never be something you have to even think about in your own house. An electrician has just made it a thought in the original posters' house, that is what you are seeing here. I suppose it could be over reaction, and if I'm guilty of it, oh well. I've changed all of the dumb sh1t in my house because some complete TOOL that lived there caulked up every ground lug on every three prong in the house, and in the few places he used his failed skills to put in an extra outlet, like, the basement for the refrigerator he left behind, he put in a two prong. And then, in a fit of genius, he cut the ground off the three prong that was on his refrigerator. People do dumb sh1t. That's the first rule of working on your house, not where your electrician has his day job or where he got his degree. People do dumb sh1t. Cutting off grounds to cope with wiring problems is just dumb sh1t that you stopped being able to get away with before Reagan was president and that would definitely get you fired today. There are lots of times you don't have to see any wiring or the box or anything else to know that some dumb sh1t is being done. Remember: Everyone thought aluminum wire was a great idea until it turned out to be dumb sh1t. And oriented strand board as fire stop. And single rock walls in garages with no ventilation. And double tapping a breaker for only one more outlet or light. And on and on and on. Dumb sh1t. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Here's a case in point................. Relf died on May 14, 1976 in a bizarre incident at his home. The veteran musician was apparently playing an improperly grounded electric guitar in his basement recording studio when he was electrocuted. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fultimateclassicrock.com%2Fkeith-relf-strange-rock-deaths%2F&ei=SThmVPSOKoOlyATKwoDgCA&usg=AFQjCNGjTQZ1IKbqcf_mn3PmsIgvtint2A I always hear the same line; "It will never happen to me" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I also can't forget all the guys complaining about amp/PA hum in some saloons that resulted from certain types of lighting on the same circuit. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I will offer a few comments: Many electrical panels in many homes are wired with the neutral and the ground at the same place. "Lifting" the ground from the plug and sending it through the neutral is no less safe in this case. What determines safe in this case is that the plugs in the house are wired correctly. I don't really understand... All the uproar is basically telling Mr. Norton his electrician is "wrong". All I am saying is that unless on of us who is QUALIFIED and has SEEN the house and the main panel, nobody can say the electrician is wrong. Nobody is really telling anyone to "unground" an amp. No houses being exchanged. No possible lawsuits here. The only thing I posted here are points to point out that there are many reasons why we could ALL be wrong, unless....wait for it..... WE HAVE SEEN THE HOUSE WIRING!!!!!!!! I'm afraid I can, and I can also, respectfully tell you you're wrong. Amps without grounds are dangerous in any house/mains supply no matter what, it's the nature of amplifiers. Norton will either listen or he won't but everyone telling him is right to do so. Lifting ground to neutral is a lot less safe, especially where AC is being rectified to DC, as in an amplifier. It is completely illegal in Europe, as are unearthed mains circuits. Have been for decades. I'll let Mr Norton alone to kill him self now, at least his electricians anonymous on line face will not be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I'm afraid I can, and I can also, respectfully tell you you're wrong. Amps without grounds are dangerous in any house/mains supply no matter what, it's the nature if amplifiers. Norton will either listen or he won't but everyone telling him is right to do so. I thought you people called them earths or some such. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I thought you people called them earths or some such. rct We do, I'm trying to address the natives in their own tonge! Did you see me attempt a "vacuum tube" up there somewhere. I think that's how you people say it, right? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.