Tremolo for an ES-175?

[LightningLopez]

Hello people!

 

I'm new to these boards, but I thought this would be the ideal place to ask about modifying my Custom Shop ES-175. It's from a few years back - 2010 or so - and it's my pride and joy. I've had heaps of good gigs with it, and it was (and is) my first really professional electric guitar.

 

Now I've been pining for a guitar with a tremolo system for a while. I was considering buying a new one, but the reality is, I can't really afford it. So I was thinking of adding a tremolo system to my ES-175. But I've got a couple of questions about it:

 

1) Has anyone done this? Has it come out well?

 

2) Will it modify the tonality of the guitar very much? Is a ES-175 well suited to the stress generated by a tremolo system?

 

3) Does anyone know if there is a Vibrola system that fits an ES-175? Obviously a Bigsby would be the standard choice, and they certainly do have a better reputation. But then, I've read that a lot of the de-tuning issues typically associated with Vibrolas have been resolved in the newer models, and that with a good setup, they are quite stable. And everything being equal, I massively prefer the look of a Vibrola - I think it would suit the classiness of an ES-175 way better than a Bigsby.

 

Ok, that's about all I can think of. Any other ideas or info on this would be very much appreciated, though!

 

-Daniel

[milod]

Funny thing... I've disabled the Bigsby or whatever on every guitar I've owned that had one.

 

There were 175 models that had a Bigsby or equivalent.

 

Personally I'd never mess with adding one - and in ways, to do it right, it could cost nearly as much as getting an Epiphone that comes standard with one. One might wish to add a roller bridge with the whammy unit, which should help with tuning.

 

Another point: A semi-hollow should in theory work better with one than a full hollow of any depth or design.

 

Then again, I'm a grouchy old man and - some suggested I was a grouchy old man when I was 20, a long time ago.

 

m

[L5Larry]

Now I've been pining for a guitar with a tremolo system for a while.

 

Then you bought the wrong guitar!

[Jayyj]

Oh come on, the pnly guitar that can't be improved by adding a Bigsby is one that already has one installed!

 

In all seriousness, I'll never understand how people can be so strident about whether it's 'right' to add a Bigsby to a particular guitar, particularly an archtop for which the Bigsby was originally designed. If the player likes to use one, will use the guitar more if it has the vibrato fitted, and there isn't a structural reason not to fit one then it seems stupid to say 'you can’t do that, it's not designed for a vibrato, you should have bought a Strat'. An ES175 or ES295 with a Bigsby is a killer Rockabilly guitar, particularly if you throw P90s into the mix.

 

That said, a 175 with a Bigsby fitted will appeal to a much smaller market than one without, so resale is a consideration - you either sell with the Bigsby, or take it off and have holes in the guitar - either way there's a hit in value. The best approach would be to fit a vibrato without modifying the guitar, in particular putting holes into the top where they'll be hard to cover if you take the vibrato off: in which case your best option is a Bigsby B6.

 

I've no experience of fitting one to a 175, but have done so a couple of times with ES330s and the top two holes in the foot of the Bigsby line up exactly to the top two holes of the trapeze. I then use an oversize strap button with a long screw to add a third anchor point. Unlike the B7, the B6 is held against the face of the guitar by string tension so there is no need to drill into the front of the guitar.

 

Even in the case that the trapeze screw holes don't line up with the Bigsby ones, anyone with a little metalwork experience should be able to create a conversion plate - if you look at the foot plate for the B7 Vibramate it will demonstrate what would be needed. Alternatively you may find holes from mounting the Bigsby directly to the guitar will be covered by the original tailpiece if you removed the Bigsby, in which case there's less harm in drilling.

 

In terms of alternatives to a B6, I've seen ES175s and 295s fitted with a B7 but it gives a lot of unnecessary break angle over the bridge so it's not ideal and it means holes in the top. The Lyre type Gibson vibratos work ok when they're set up correctly but they have less travel than a Bigsby and I can never get the arm to stay tightened up which would drive me up the wall. The All Parts copy and some reissue versions often have the plate mounted angled downwards rather than upwards so that the strings don't contact the plate as they should. There's also the Gibson side to side unit, used primarily on ES355s and SGs around 1962. It looks great, but has the worst reputation of pretty much any vibrato system on the market - I wouldn't bother with it. Both Gibson designed units need to be screwed into the top.

 

So really, the Bigsby B6 is your safest option - it works great, easy to install, and it's easily reversible if you decide you don't like it or ever want to sell the guitar.

[zigzag]

Don't mean to rain on your parade, but I'm with Milod. I wouldn't put one on an expensive guitar unless I was rolling in dough, and if I did, I'd also install a roller bridge (and maybe even Sperzel tuners).

[stein]

I'm with everyone one this.

 

If it's a money thing, it is NOT true you will spend less putting a trem on the 175. You can get an Eastern-made Strat-like deal with a trem for less than the cost of a trem to put on your Gibby. And that is way, WAY more true if you are going to do it right- "right" being having the work done properly, AND having the proper trem purchased that does the guitar justice.

 

Also, as far as "money" goes, chances are that the guitar itself will be de-valued to some extent...likely be worth less on the market that is greater then the amount of another guitar you might buy. A Gibby 175 is a real, real nice guitar.

 

Also, if wang is what you want to do, Bigsby's have less "wang" to them than other trem systems. Depending on what you want to do...something to consider.

 

Like it has been said though, adding a Bigsby to a Gibson isn't always a bad thing. It is totally appropriate, IF that is your taste. There are lots of fans out there, although, it should be stated that usually, the 175 model would be somewhat less likely to have them than say, a 330, 335, etc. The Bigsby, basically, IS the trem for hollow/semi-hollow guitars, OR, Gibson types.

 

As fans will tell you it improves the sound, for sure, it will change the sound. I have also heard of some who like having them even though they don't use them at all, just for what it does to the sound. That, for sure, is a matter of taste and opinion. Are you that guy?

 

If you are the Bigsby type, you don't need an excuse to put one on. If it's truly a money thing or an experiement, it's gonna cost you doing it to a high-end guitar like a true Gibby 175.

[jdgm]

LL - FWIW I agree with Stein, very good info in his post. A Strat-type tremelo is much tougher so you can play harder and goes down (and up if you want) more.

 

And I bought an ES175 with a factory Bigsby. See the Bigsby appreciation thread. If you do you will also see I got a cheap but incredibly well made and finished Korean semi with a Bigsby (for not much more than the price of a Bigsby trem by itself!) which might be the way to go.

 

My own feeling about the Bigsby on my 175 is that it does not add anything much to the tone and after comparing with a stock non-Bigsby 175 (which seemed livelier) recently, think it may even detract from it slightly.

I made a string mute to go between the Bigsby and the bridge as I don't like the harmonic 'ping' that trapeze tailpiece guitars with a shallow break angle tend to have, I don't think it adds to the note.

I have 2 other guitars with the same shallow break and they all have it to some degree.

 

Unfortunately almost any mod like this will reduce the value of a guitar.

 

Best wishes!

[SteveFord]

I can't help with the ES-175 but for the Lyre arm coming loose just use a drop of Purple Loctite on the threads and tighten up to where you want it. It did the trick on my old Firebird VII which was driving me nuts.

[LightningLopez]

thanks heaps for the replies - especially Jayyj, stein and jdgm. All really useful posts. I knew I'd come to the right place!

 

I'm leaning towards "yes"... I'm really obsessed with tremolo, and I'm mainly a blues/R&B player, so having a modified 175 doesn't bother me too much, aesthetically or musically or whatever. And I think whatever money I save will just go into the long term guitar/amp savings fund. I'll keep you posted if I do go ahead, though!

[brundaddy]

You can install it only using the screw that fastens the strap button. String tension aligns it very nicely. Very stable. My 137 has been set up this way for years. If you fall out of love with it, you never drilled any holes.

[gnappi]

You can (and probably will) take what I say with a grain of salt because I'll say up front that I do NOT like Bigsby (or any trem) TP's AND I'm not a fan of irrevocably "Modding" a good guitar.

 

That said...

 

You probably should have bought a Gretsch. Gretsch makes many great much less expensive guitars than a Gibby, and MOST of them come with a Bigsby some with HB pups that are easily and inexpensively changed for Gibson pups. You also could have saved a bunch of money this way. Actually, you can still get what you want, a used Gretsch G5120 (A very nice guitar WITH Bigsby AND humbuckers) on Feebay for ~$400 or so, not much more than it would cost to "mod" (my way of saying destroy) your 175.

 

If you put a Bigsby (Gibson used a B6 on the ES-195 ~$170) on your Gibson, aside from making your ES-175 into a guitar that will be hard to sell you get a guitar that goes out of tune, especially if a string breaks, you're out of luck on stage. I'm having a solid TP made for my ES-195 with an exact hinge plate so I can keep the very much disliked Bigsby in the event I sell it.

 

If you DO decide to put one on the 175 DO YOURSELF A HUGE FAVOR!!! GET A LUTHIER TO DO IT! Drilling holes yourself and cracking the guitar is a BAD way to save money. Your cost will be about $200 or so for the parts and labor, and you will devalue the 175 by a substantial amount.

[Searcy]

So, here's my arch top Gibson with a Bigsby.

 

 

 

 

 

Why do we think we need to drill holes in the guitar? Use a Bigsby B3 and Towner V block.

[gnappi]

So, here's my arch top Gibson with a Bigsby.

 

Why do we think we need to drill holes in the guitar? Use a Bigsby B3 and Towner V block.

 

Because if you're holding it on with only a strap button like it's been suggested one not so hard whack on the bigsby will very much hurt the guitar. I've never seen a V block but I'll look into it.

 

My ES-195 has a B6 Bigsby with 3 holes drilled and screwed in and NO support from the strap button. I'm having a custom TP made to match the holes to get rid of the silly thing. Hey they're your guitars, do as you please...

[zurdo]

I'm planning on adding a Bigsby to my ES-150 DCW. Can't be any worse than without a Bigsby.

[Searcy]

Because if you're holding it on with only a strap button like it's been suggested one not so hard whack on the bigsby will very much hurt the guitar. I've never seen a V block but I'll look into it.

 

My ES-195 has a B6 Bigsby with 3 holes drilled and screwed in and NO support from the strap button. I'm having a custom TP made to match the holes to get rid of the silly thing. Hey they're your guitars, do as you please...

 

I can't see it damaging the guitar any more than if it had 4 little screws on it. But my recommendation is to use the V block and not beat on the guitar.

[chefothefuture]

If you want to put a Bigsby B6 True Vibrato tailpiece on your guitar, do it.

It's your guitar. Yes, you'll be tuning a little more often than not, but once you

learn the "in's and out's" of the Bigsby you might find you've expanded your playing style.

Any added screwholes are on the end of the guitar anyway, and might actually be covered

by the hinged plate. If not, an experienced repair shop could touch it up if it bugs you.

Minor.

Here's a picture of my Tal Farlow with a B6 :-)

 

[Jayyj]

Because if you're holding it on with only a strap button like it's been suggested one not so hard whack on the bigsby will very much hurt the guitar. I've never seen a V block but I'll look into it.

 

My ES-195 has a B6 Bigsby with 3 holes drilled and screwed in and NO support from the strap button. I'm having a custom TP made to match the holes to get rid of the silly thing. Hey they're your guitars, do as you please...

 

When I've fitted B6s to 330s and Casinos the top two screw holes line up with the holes for the original tailpiece so there are three screws connecting the Bigsby on my B6 loaded guitars. But, as long as the screw used is long enough to have proper purchase, I would have no concerns fitting one with only the strap button for support. You're replacing three (or four) small screws with one much bigger one, that's all.

 

Bare in mind a 10lb Les Paul can stand being slung around a stage every night for decades secured only by its strap button screws. It's not exactly a weak point.

[Jayyj]

If you want to put a Bigsby B6 True Vibrato tailpiece on your guitar, do it.

It's your guitar. Yes, you'll be tuning a little more often than not, but once you

learn the "in's and out's" of the Bigsby you might find you've expanded your playing style.

Any added screwholes are on the end of the guitar anyway, and might actually be covered

by the hinged plate. If not, an experienced repair shop could touch it up if it bugs you.

Minor.

Here's a picture of my Tal Farlow with a B6 :-)

 

 

 

Absolutely gorgeous, that's a really beautiful guitar and the Bigsby looks great on it!

 

It's almost as though fitting a Bigsby didn't ruin it at all...

[Searcy]