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Pre-Gibson Epiphones


Wetdog

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Have just tuned in to this area of the Gibson blog, I'm sure this point has been made by others. So okay so I'm an old school pre-Gibson Epiphone snob. Even though I own a Joe Pass Epi lefty (okay for a cheap jazz box), and the newish Masterbuilt Epi I played was pretty nice, let's face it, Gibson bought Epiphone in 1957 and made it their "cheapy" guitar line. They are nice for what they are considering their price point. Just my humble opinion but the only REAL Epiphone is a pre-Gibson Epiphone like my 1937 hand carved Zenith f-hole. Not the top of the line for it's day but a respectable Epiphone. Found it in a thrift store with the original case and it is sitting in my shop awaiting a neck reset. Oh boy, oh boy!!! [love] Except for the neck reset it is in incredible shape. My dream guitar (one dream among many) would be a clean pre-war (that's WWII for all you youngsters) Masterbuilt Emperor. B)

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Also remember, for a time when Gibson had owned Epi, and still made in the USA, there was a little competition between Gibson and Epi that resulted in some Epi models being a little more "upscale" than the Gibby counterparts.

 

But, yea, for sure, Epiphone Epiphones are a whole different thing.

 

I guess, one thing that might be kinda cool is that sinse Epi has a reputation as being the cheap(er) version of Gibson, a lot of "real" Epiphones could get under the radar, and good steals can be found.

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Absolutely, which is why I believe my '37 Zenith was rather inexpensive. Those old Epis looked so cool and sounded great. They had a distinct "Epiphone shape" to distinguish them from from Gibson who after all invented the F-hole guitar. The Epi proportions tended to be a little larger lower bout, smaller upper bout compared to a Gibson. This shape also gave them a distinct tone and as we all know the shape of a guitar determines what fundamental as well as the overtones that will be present. This of course as well as many other factors like bracing, tone woods used, tuning of the plates during construction etc. B)

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I have a 1936 Epiphone Zenith. A great guitar. The only reason they are relatively inexpensive is due to the low demand in the vintage guitar marketplace for acoustic archtops. Not to say that won't change one day. The collector market place is driven by the ever changing face of what are hot as collectables at any given time. I also have another NY Epiphone on my Epiphone hall of my guitar collection. That one is a 1955 or 56 Epiphone FT79. The flat top predecessor to the Gibson Epiphone FT79 Texan. In the vintage world, the NY Epi FT79 is known as the pre-Texan.

 

My Epiphone collection also spans/includes the Kalamazoo Epiphone era and the modern Epi import era, skipping only the early import era from the Norlin era. Cool to have a collection that spans the original era, the Kalamazoo era, and now the modern import era. By having a collection spanning the eras, I see great continuity in the brand and appreciate how Gibson has kept this once nearly extinct brand an ongoing force in guitar manufacturing. A reason we are all on this forum, right now.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Jazzman Jeff aka QM

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let's face it, Gibson bought Epiphone in 1957 and made it their "cheapy" guitar line.

No, not quite.

 

It's important to remember that the playing field looked vastly different in 1958, when the first Gibson-made Epis appeared. Epiphone had been Gibson's direct competitor for the high end market, with USA companies like Harmony and Kay covering the low end.

 

Epi's financial undoing became Gibson's opportunity to buy. But to their surprise, Gibson found they had received guitar components as well as the bass production equipment they thought they were purchasing. In relatively short order, the company decided to create an Epiphone product line and dealer network to compete directly with Gibson for high end sales. Essentially, they would be able to compete with themselves and corner a larger percentage of the upper-end market.

 

From '58 to '69, Gibson-made Epiphones were equal to Gibsons in build quality (initially using up their newly received stock of Epi parts). Some Epi models were virtual clones of Gibson models, while some were unique, such as the Excellente (who's price exceeded Gibson's top-on-the-line J200) and the Howard Roberts archtops. It was common to have a few altered features on the Epi clone models, such as mini-humbuckers vs P90 pickups, and often the retail price would be listed for a few dollars less than the equivalent Gibson, but this in no way constituted a "cheapy" line.

 

By the late '60s, Japanese guitar production had taken over much of the low end of the market, and Gibson realized it needed to compete in this quickly changing arena. Therefore in 1970, production of Epis was switched to Japan, Kalamazoo Epis became a thing of the past, and the low-buck Epi was truly born.

 

As for the desirability of original Epiphones vs Gibson-made Epis, I find it to simply be a matter of preferences related to playability & tone. I have not played a "real" pre-Gibson Epiphone that truly pushed any personal hot buttons, but I do greatly appreciate their quality construction.

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Nice...your first thread insults most people who post here.

Not really. The guy did say he has some "cheap" Epis and likes them fine for what they are.

 

I think he is making a point, reminding us, that at a point in history, a REAL Epiphone was NOT an "affordable" or "cheaper" guitar.

 

Doesn't make current Epiphone any better or worse. They just aren't the same Animal with the same DNA.

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Not really. The guy did say he has some "cheap" Epis and likes them fine for what they are.

 

I think he is making a point, reminding us, that at a point in history, a REAL Epiphone was NOT an "affordable" or "cheaper" guitar.

 

Doesn't make current Epiphone any better or worse. They just aren't the same Animal with the same DNA.

 

"The only real Epiphone is a pre-Gibson Epiphone" is at least a tad on the offensive side.

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So okay so I'm an old school pre-Gibson Epiphone snob. Even though I own a Joe Pass Epi lefty (okay for a cheap jazz box), and the newish Masterbuilt Epi I played was pretty nice,

 

 

"The only real Epiphone is a pre-Gibson Epiphone" is at least a tad on the offensive side.

He covered it. It's all good.

 

For fans of "pre-Gibson" Epiphones, someone with the enthusiasm he obviously has for them, of corse a distinction must be made. We are talking a genuine affection, a genuine love here, being shared. It's kinda necessary to point out they are not the same as the current ones, isn't it?

 

A made in China or Korea or anywhere else will never be the same "Epiphone" as the American Icon they once were. It does not have to take away from what they are now, but certainly shouldn't let it take away from the company from the past, and the guitars that were built, and still exist. That's just a fact, but not a point that should offend fans of what they are now.

 

I been known to like a cheap guitar here and there, as well as the real deal. One doesn't take away from the other. Holding my "real deal" guitars to a higher regard doesn't make my cheap(er) ones any less good or loose their charm.

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Be that as it may, the Epiphone of today makes incredibly good guitars at ridiculously low prices relative to similar build guitars by other manufacturers. Being made in America is irrelevant if the actual build quality is not better than guitars built outside of America. In my experience, a good modern day Epiphone acoustic sounds and feels every bit as good as a good modern day "high end" acoustic.

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Be that as it may, the Epiphone of today makes incredibly good guitars at ridiculously low prices relative to similar build guitars by other manufacturers. Being made in America is irrelevant if the actual build quality is not better than guitars built outside of America. In my experience, a good modern day Epiphone acoustic sounds and feels every bit as good as a good modern day "high end" acoustic.

I agree, but also don't.

 

Every guitar is different. I believe, if a guy looks enough, he can eventually come a cross a "cheap" guitar that is better than expected, and as good or better than a "good" guitar.

 

And yes, proof is in the pudding. Being American made and having a certain brand on the headstock isn't enough.

 

However, to say that what Epi is making today is as good as what Gibson is making in the acoustic department can only be seen as true if a guy can't play or experience enough of the Gibson. There is some really, REALLY good stuff coming from there, and the recent past, that is as good as anything that has ever been. Just opinion, of corse. But for sure, the Gibson product being made is a far notch above. If there was no name on the headstock, I bet nearly everyone who had a choice would choose a Gibby in the end. Pay 3500 vs 500? That's a different matter.

 

As for a collecter or guitar junky, or an "expert", an Epi made in the New York plant during the golden age of archtops is going to have a different appeal and meaning than what is being made today, even what is made in the USA today. The building process, and the resulting sound that comes of it, is very different. To know and appreciate these qualities, if one is of a mind to, will not be found in the Epi of today.

 

In that, "Made in the United States of America" does have relevance. You have an owner/boss who is there with his employees, making a product. In the City, where there are musicians are using them, making the very music they were designed for. And if something is good or bad, there is face-to-face accountability and feedback. It's a time when doing business and making a product was done with a certain amount of pride that isn't possible with an import made to a spec as cheaply and well done to a price point as a contractor can.

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I agree, but also don't.

 

Every guitar is different. I believe, if a guy looks enough, he can eventually come a cross a "cheap" guitar that is better than expected, and as good or better than a "good" guitar.

 

And yes, proof is in the pudding. Being American made and having a certain brand on the headstock isn't enough.

 

However, to say that what Epi is making today is as good as what Gibson is making in the acoustic department can only be seen as true if a guy can't play or experience enough of the Gibson. There is some really, REALLY good stuff coming from there, and the recent past, that is as good as anything that has ever been. Just opinion, of corse. But for sure, the Gibson product being made is a far notch above. If there was no name on the headstock, I bet nearly everyone who had a choice would choose a Gibby in the end. Pay 3500 vs 500? That's a different matter.

 

As for a collecter or guitar junky, or an "expert", an Epi made in the New York plant during the golden age of archtops is going to have a different appeal and meaning than what is being made today, even what is made in the USA today. The building process, and the resulting sound that comes of it, is very different. To know and appreciate these qualities, if one is of a mind to, will not be found in the Epi of today.

 

In that, "Made in the United States of America" does have relevance. You have an owner/boss who is there with his employees, making a product. In the City, where there are musicians are using them, making the very music they were designed for. And if something is good or bad, there is face-to-face accountability and feedback. It's a time when doing business and making a product was done with a certain amount of pride that isn't possible with an import made to a spec as cheaply and well done to a price point as a contractor can.

 

I understand where you are coming from.

 

However....I have yet to demo a modern high end guitar that sounded or felt better in any way than my January 2014 Indonesian made IB64 Texan.

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someone call McCartney and let him know his Texan and Casino are not "real Epiphones"

The real McCartney knows what he has. He likely cares less than the fake McCartneys.

 

I doubt he would look down on anyone for playing, and loving, a modern day Epi. And neither would I.

 

He does have some really, nice, high-end guitars though. I don't think he is playing the Imported Epiphones. He can afford it more than most too. And I'm quite sure he is playing what he is playing because he can tell the difference.

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I'm a mastering engineer. As such, I can hear subtle differences very easily. I have yet to demo a high end guitar that felt or sounded better than my Texan.

 

Obviously not that easily, you don't need elephant ears to tell the difference between a new Epiphone acoustic from a Gibson.

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Obviously not that easily, you don't need elephant ears to tell the difference between a new Epiphone acoustic from a Gibson.

 

I'll put my masterbuilt up against any Gibson taylor or martin I agree with cliff the epiphones today are quite good and truth be known the name is why they are not as expensive

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Morkolo,

 

I have a very good Texan...bone nut and saddle pre-installed. When I bought it, I compared it to a mint 1966 Gibson J-50 on display. The tones were eerily similar, but the Texan I bought was louder. Since that time I have demoed many other brand new Gibsons, Martins and Taylors and I have yet to find one that I honestly felt was noticeably better in tone, volume or feel than my Texan.

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I've compared them as well, in fact I had an Epiphone AJ500m for a while... the fact remains it just didn't cut it when I compared it to my Gibsons. My Father still has his AJ500m and it's a fantastic guitar, better than it's price point should allow... but better than say my J45? In all fairness not even close.

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I'll put my masterbuilt up against any Gibson taylor or martin I agree with cliff the epiphones today are quite good and truth be known the name is why they are not as expensive

They aren't as expensive because it doesn't cost them that much to build. And that's a good thing.

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I'm a mastering engineer. As such, I can hear subtle differences very easily. I have yet to demo a high end acoustic guitar that felt or sounded better than my Texan.

 

And how many thousands of people have heard the opposite and made the records to go along with their conviction? You like it, you like it. You don't have to continue to subtly hint that those that play expensive American guitars don't hear as well as you or only bought them for the cache<---little thingy over the e. Lots of people play lots of guitars that didn't need any help from you picking them. Same goes for you.

 

rct

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Individual examples that sound amazing, or is it the owners just like their individual guitars?

 

Doesn't really matter, does it? There is a lot that has to do with TASTE.

 

But, regardless of ears, taste, listening ability, what can one say comparing an American made, New York made or Gibson made Epiphone to one made in the far East? Wouldn't one expect the former to usually be better than the latter?

 

Is there anyone who has ears and taste so good, that somehow, those who make them by hand don't know what they are doing? Would someone say to another, "My Epiphone made in the far East is better than any I heard, so therefore, the opinion of those who buy guitars at greater expense are missing something".

 

Ignore the idea that making guitars in the USA, by hand, at greater expense, is somehow not different than Asians making guitars to a spec. To spite the fact that the market for such is huge. That people who dish out cash somehow know less than those that don't.

 

Why, is it taken as an insult to owners of Asian guitars if the USA made ones, or rather, the ORIGONAL ones are considered better quality?

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rct,

 

That's complete and utter nonsense. I'm not subtle about anything. I am quite clear about my opinions and experiences.

 

I don't look down at people who choose to spend their hard earned money on whatever it is they want to spend it on.

 

On the other hand, I'm not interested in hearing from the many who choose to look down at those of us who aren't spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on our acoustic guitars. I choose to revel in the beauty, playability and unbelievable value I have found in Epiphone acoustic guitars. I enjoy sharing in what I have found with others and feel positively blessed to have found a message board filled with so many likeminded people.

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