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Vintage Super 400 CES: What Year, Etc?


CharmedLifePcks

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Hi. I am probably going to be buying this guitar tomorrow for a fairly reasonable price. Please note that it has a cracked neck on the rear of the headstock; however, the good news is it has not cracked all the way through and is thus very repairable.

 

The ink (or pencil?) on the label inside the guitar body has faded so you cannot read it. The seller does not want me to open up anything, so I can't look at the pot codes to help date the instrument.

 

Can anyone tell by looking at these pictures approximately what year this was made? I'm guessing late 50s to early 60s based upon the natural checking of the finish.

 

Thank you so much!

 

PLEASE NOTE: I have an ancient computer and I'm a computer idiot. I have been trying to imbed images for over an hour from Photobucket. If the pictures did not imbed, please click this link to take you to the full album on Photobucket:

 

My link

 

400SUPERCUPICKGARD-PICKUPS_zps7f2cd64c.jpg

 

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/educatedguess417/Gibson%20Super%20400%20CES%20Guitar/400NECKJOINT_zpsb6a67409.jpg

 

400SUPERCUCRACKSIDEANGLEGOODONE_zps5910f587.jpg

 

400FULLBODYGOODONE_zpsd878f66f.jpg

 

400GREATSHOTPICKGARDETC_zps5858cd1b.jpg

 

400AWESOMEHEADSTOCKCU_zps7802b721.jpg

 

400ANOTHERANGLEREARCRACK_zpsa73d790f.jpg

 

400BODYREARCU_zps372ac3c1.jpg

 

400CRACKEDHEADSTOCKREARGOODONE_zps5dd5a962.jpg

 

400FULLBODYGOODONE_zpsd878f66f.jpg

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Hello Charmedlife. That is not a Super 400, it's actually a Gibson Tal Farlow. These models were made between 1962 - 1969, however Gibson Historic Division/ Gibson Custom reissued them in the 1990's and they are still in production today

 

The guitar looks vintage to me and only 215 were made between '62 - '69, but the vintage ones sell at reasonable prices these days.

 

That's a nasty neck break on it. Also, make sure the seller doesn't charge you a vintage Super 400 price, because you will be paying more than the value of the guitar. Tal Farlow's are great instruments, but not as expensive as Super 400's

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Like Cody says....and agree that is a bad-looking break. A lot worse than the 'typical' clean fractures that plagues many Gibsons. I would seek out a really good luthier. Expect it to take 'time and money'.

 

Hope the deal works out.....Nice-looking guitar [thumbup]

 

 

 

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I recommend not buying this guitar. A repairable headstock break is more or less along a few grain lines. These will line up nicely with some glue and clamping pressure.

 

The break in this picture does not appear to line up nicely. There will be lots of gaps and the joint will never be solid. Just my opinion though.

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Thanks for the quick response, folks. Yes, someone else also just now informed me it is not a Super 400 but a Tal Farlow model. I will have to it cheaply, if at all. It is actually (not sure if I mentioned this) part of a "package" that also includes a 1967 Telecaster, so I might be able to buy it very reasonably, all things considered.

 

I realize the neck break, even if professionally repaired, makes the guitar take a huge hit in price.

 

Very good input, gents. Thanks so much. If anyone else has any other comments, I'm all ears.

 

Cheers!

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Yea, cheaply would be good. It's very possible the repair will cost as much as the value.

 

Couple things: I can't tell the year, not expert enough. Just from what I see, 62-69 seems about right. Also, 62-63 seems a good guess. (Both from above post).

 

What I could say, is that these years might make a big difference. Just as an example, if those are the original pups, that makes a difference. Not suggesting you part it out (in fact, the thought hurts), but just in the parts there, between 62 and 69, you could be looking at twice or half just in the value of the parts.

 

So yea, looking inside would make a difference.

 

But, if this guy is selling at a truly low price....

 

I think, regardless of price, the guitar is worth fixing. It's worth spending the money to fix it properly and have it played by someone who would appreciate it.

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Yea, cheaply would be good. It's very possible the repair will cost as much as the value.

 

Couple things: I can't tell the year, not expert enough. Just from what I see, 62-69 seems about right. Also, 62-63 seems a good guess. (Both from above post).

 

What I could say, is that these years might make a big difference. Just as an example, if those are the original pups, that makes a difference. Not suggesting you part it out (in fact, the thought hurts), but just in the parts there, between 62 and 69, you could be looking at twice or half just in the value of the parts.

 

So yea, looking inside would make a difference.

 

But, if this guy is selling at a truly low price....

 

I think, regardless of price, the guitar is worth fixing. It's worth spending the money to fix it properly and have it played by someone who would appreciate it.

 

Stein, I agree. It's kind of an adventure for me, stuff like this, separate from my day job. The price will be very low, maybe $500.00 for the archtop, then get some professional opinions on what to do about the neck.

 

Thanks, on my way now to meet the sellers....

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Wow! Congrats! $500 for a vintage Tal Farlow is an amazing deal! Even with the broken neck I would have thought they would have asked a lot more than that... and for that price I would definitely buy it if I were you.

 

The original Viceroy Brown colour on the originals (like the one you are getting) has a slightly darker look than the new reissues which are a quite bright and more cherry looking. I really love the old finish compared to the newer versions.

 

Hope all goes well with the restoration. I'd love to hear the sound of it when it's all complete.

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Wow! Congrats! $500 for a vintage Tal Farlow is an amazing deal! Even with the broken neck I would have thought they would have asked a lot more than that... and for that price I would definitely buy it if I were you.

 

The original Viceroy Brown colour on the originals (like the one you are getting) has a slightly darker look than the new reissues which are a quite bright and more cherry looking. I really love the old finish compared to the newer versions.

 

Hope all goes well with the restoration. I'd love to hear the sound of it when it's all complete.

 

Cody, thanks very much, I WILL keep everyone posted. I tend to move slowly and methodically on these issues once the guitar is in the barn. I do a lot of research. I will no doubt send pics and talk to some of the top restorers in the country, plus someone suggested also talk to Gibson's in-house restoration department. That would probably set a benchmark (high) in terms of both quality and price, and would at least be worth exploring, especially since the purchase price is so low.

 

However, I have the luxury of living in Los Angeles, where some of the top luthiers in the country reside and do work for the biggest players out there, so the cost of transporting and insuring back and forth to Nashville might be a bit much.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Gibson Folks:

 

I bought the Tal Farlow today and brought it into the barn. It was ridiculously cheap and came in a package with a 1967 Tele.

 

Question: Does anyone on the Board here have any experience with the Gibson in-house repair and restoration department? Several people have suggested that I have Gibson themselves do the repair, that this would be very attractive to a prospective buyer. I know they are pricey, but it might be the way to go.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Barring that option, can anyone recommend any luthiers around the country that particularly adept at this sort of restoration process? I am not afraid to pay good $$$$ for a top-notch restoration. Get it done one, get it done right.

 

Thanks.

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Wow, I'd say you got a fantastic buy. To me, the neck break doesn't look so out of the ordinary (clearly a bad break, but the pieces look like they could still fit together fine). I would expect an experienced luthier/repairman to be able to fix that properly.

 

I'm intrigued by the pickguard on this thing. I know I have seen some with that type of marbled plastic (a la the Super 400 model), but I think they're relatively uncommon. Not sure whether it could have been custom made back in the day, or whether it's original. I find it interesting that a mounting screw for the bridge pickup is helping with the attachment of the guard. I did this once with a Super 400C guard that was uncut for pickups, which I was putting on a 400CES. Worked out nicely. Anyway, a luthier should also be able to mount it properly, getting the pin to go back into the neck also.

 

Talk to some experienced people and shop around before you select a repairman. Since you're in L.A., Norman Harris (Norman's Rare Guitars) might be able to help you find somebody. I fully agree that you want to get it done right the first time.

 

If those pickups are PAF's, that would be a nice bonus! Congrats.

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Wow, I'd say you got a fantastic buy. To me, the neck break doesn't look so out of the ordinary (clearly a bad break, but the pieces look like they could still fit together fine). I would expect an experienced luthier/repairman to be able to fix that properly.

 

I'm intrigued by the pickguard on this thing. I know I have seen some with that type of marbled plastic (a la the Super 400 model), but I think they're relatively uncommon. Not sure whether it could have been custom made back in the day, or whether it's original. I find it interesting that a mounting screw for the bridge pickup is helping with the attachment of the guard. I did this once with a Super 400C guard that was uncut for pickups, which I was putting on a 400CES. Worked out nicely. Anyway, a luthier should also be able to mount it properly, getting the pin to go back into the neck also.

 

Talk to some experienced people and shop around before you select a repairman. Since you're in L.A., Norman Harris (Norman's Rare Guitars) might be able to help you find somebody. I fully agree that you want to get it done right the first time.

 

If those pickups are PAF's, that would be a nice bonus! Congrats.

 

 

early Tal's had the same mottled/headcheese pickguard material as period Super 400's

'63 is the last year for that material @ Gibson, which tells me it's either a '62 or '63.

I'm thinking '63 because the neck profile on this one is fatter than a '62

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early Tal's had the same mottled/headcheese pickguard material as period Super 400's

'63 is the last year for that material @ Gibson, which tells me it's either a '62 or '63.

I'm thinking '63 because the neck profile on this one is fatter than a '62

 

According to factory records listed in A.R. Duchossoir's book 'Gibson Electrics - The Classic Years', the shipping totals for the first 3 years of production are;

 

1962 - 2

1963 - 39

1964 - 41

 

If it is a 1962 it's 1 of 2 shipped that year making it very rare indeed, therefore I would lean towards '63 on that premise - but you never know...

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According to factory records listed in A.R. Duchossoir's book 'Gibson Electrics - The Classic Years', the shipping totals for the first 3 years of production are;

 

1962 - 2

1963 - 39

1964 - 41

 

If it is a 1962 it's 1 of 2 shipped that year making it very rare indeed, therefore I would lean towards '63 on that premise - but you never know...

 

Cody, wow! Thanks for those digits. That would be amazing if it were one of two made in the first year of production, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

 

What is the best way to date an instrument like this? The pencil on the handwritten label inside the body has faded to the point of being unreadable.

 

Similar to Les Pauls, do these guitars also have date codes on the backs of the potentiometers?

 

Appreciate your insights, etc.

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Cody, wow! Thanks for those digits. That would be amazing if it were one of two made in the first year of production, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

 

What is the best way to date an instrument like this? The pencil on the handwritten label inside the body has faded to the point of being unreadable.

 

Similar to Les Pauls, do these guitars also have date codes on the backs of the potentiometers?

 

Appreciate your insights, etc.

 

No problem, I find vintage instruments fascinating and have a lot of books/ literature on Gibson's history.

 

I'm no expert, but I would assume the pots should have date codes on them unless they have been replaced, but I couldn't say for sure. Here is an interesting link to determining vintage pot codes;

 

http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/reading_pot_codes.php

 

Also, you may be interested to reference this link to a 1963 Tal Farlow. As Wintermoon mentioned, notice the pickguard is the same unusual version as yours and also note the waffle back tuners. This one has a serial stamped on the back of the headstock, however, some others from this year don't seem to.

 

Here's the link;

 

http://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-custom-tal-farlow-1963-sunburst

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No problem, I find vintage instruments fascinating and have a lot of books/ literature on Gibson's history.

 

I'm no expert, but I would assume the pots should have date codes on them unless they have been replaced, but I couldn't say for sure. Here is an interesting link to determining vintage pot codes;

 

http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/reading_pot_codes.php

 

Also, you may be interested to reference this link to a 1963 Tal Farlow. As Wintermoon mentioned, notice the pickguard is the same unusual version as yours and also note the waffle back tuners. This one has a serial stamped on the back of the headstock, however, some others from this year don't seem to.

 

Here's the link;

 

http://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-custom-tal-farlow-1963-sunburst

That's right up the road here.

 

Looks like he is selling their vintage stuff. I have seen this stuff there for years. It's all been on display for longer than I remember. I recognize them.

 

I wonder how they are doing. They have for years at least when I used to get out to the shops, been a very good Gibson dealer, with the "good stuff", and lots of it.

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