ksdaddy Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 ....that they make me physically ill. I can't justify it, at least not in any way that makes sense to anyone else. I can't rationalize it. They just make me sick. When I was 16 the local music store pushed Ventura copies of popular US models for $150 or so. People bought them by the ton. I questioned their sanity then. The copies got even better, or so I was told. Copies of originals are all over the place. Fender and Gibson even copy themselves with the Squiers and Epiphones. People would ask, what difference does it make? Who cares? There was one Elvis. There are lots of Elvis imitators. What difference does it make? Who cares? A replica of something no longer made is forgiveable to a degree but it's sad that for every real Fender Stratocaster there are 30 copies. I know it's just the way of the world and nothing will ever change but I will never spend Dime One on a copy of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yeah I agree... Even before I was such a Gibson nerd... A Gibson LP was all I ever wanted... When I was at school I had pictures of them all over my workbooks and files and would sit there staring at them all day long... When I finally wanted to get an electric I (obviously) could not afford a Gibson... So I went out and came back with a Tanglewood Black Beauty LP copy... After only having it for a few weeks (and it wasn't a bad guitar at all) it just annoyed me that when I looked down I didn't see Gibson on the headstock.... So in the end I went and part exchanged it for a Kay 90 (which was a double cut neck through design).. Which even though it sounded worse than the Tanglewood I was happier with?? Like you I cant exactly say why.. And it doesn't even make logical sense.. All I can say is... Only a Gibson is good enough This is a screen shot from a video taken of a jam from when I was 20 (20 years ago :unsure: ).. Showing off my then new LP Studio And by the way... The only time I could actually afford to buy a Gibson was when I was hit by a car (delivering Pizza) and we claimed on insurance or it may have been many many years later for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 There are some folks that just cant afford a Gibson.... So IMO the best cost effective option is the Epi..... I remember the Hondo II LP copies were all over the place in the 70's and early 80's, but I had no interest. I was fortunate to have a Gibby SG as my first electric and a 80 LPC by the age of 16, and my older brother had a Gibby 76 LPC and 78 EDS1275 which I took ownership of. But I jammed with tons of players that had copies, and they worked for them and it never really bothered me.... When I walked into jam sessions I think I was the only 16 year old kid that had a Gibby SG and LPC... Which amazed all my little geetar buddies.... lol.... What bothers me today are the illegal reproduction Gibsons that people knowingly buy.... That really bothers me when one can acquire a Epi LP for close to the same price point as a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yeah I know what you mean.. I don't understand it either... Whats even worse is someone who knowingly tries to sell a fake as the real thing.. Now that deserves beatings.... Did you see this vid? He gets really upset about it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_H2ZmKP8E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brc Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I am with you both, but what bothers me as much as when some one takes a nice looking guitar, or even buys one that has the road worn, distressed look or how ever you want to call it. Those are just bug the living shi-- out of me. To me when some one wants their guitar look like it has been used, worn out, scratched up, the owner/player wants every one to think they have been around a while, and their beat to shi-- guitar is proof. Those guitars with the fake "used look" are a joke. I am afraid until the makers of the copies of Gibson, Fenders are legally punished for making the fakes, they will continue to do so. String em up by their thumbs I say ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I am with you both, but what bothers me as much as when some one takes a nice looking guitar, or even buys one that has the road worn, distressed look or how ever you want to call it. Those are just bug the living shi-- out of me. To me when some one wants their guitar look like it has been used, worn out, scratched up, the owner/player wants every one to think they have been around a while, and their beat to shi-- guitar is proof. Those guitars with the fake "used look" are a joke. Can't see why that would bother anyone.... Well unless someone did that to a guitar you own without asking you first... lol... when done right, I can appreciate the art behind it.... But in the end as long as the person can play I'm jamming with, I could care less what they do to their guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I dunno. I know I'll get flamed for this, but as far as I can see "back," virtually every guitar currently available is functionally a copy of older designs. Even the Gibson current models ain't really the "same" as instruments back in the 20s, 30s, etc., up to current. Nor are Fenders the same as their 1950s stuff. Ditto Martin. I'm not at all "dissing" these manufacturers at all, though. Nor really the companies that make very similar instruments. Frankly to me the extreme is the "Martin" brand that has a fancy fiberboard body on their own copies of fine all-wood guitars that are virtually identical in appearance to their flagship instruments but with a price tag like an Epiphone - and less than the Epi Masterbuilts. Is, for example, my early '70s Guild S100c a "cheap copy" of an SG? I personally don't think so, and even if there'd been a Gibson dealer in driving distance at the time I bought mine new, I'd likely have gone for the Guild at the time. But - face it, the shape was virtually identical to an SG, it had HB pups and the same basic controls as a Gibson - plus a phase switch. A neck I still consider to be virtually "perfect" although you can feel a teeeny bit of waves on the back from the handwork shaping it. Then again, what can you do with a couple of boards, a few metal parts and magnetic pups and their associated electronics? Unless one wishes to get "way out," I think we've seen so many variations of guitar nowadays that a case might easily be made that even the "big guys" simply are copying the appearance of their older designs and they may, or may not, be altering stuff we don't see. And even woods... they ain't the same either. And I don't just mean which tree, I mean types of trees. Then there's the Martin with a high-end plywood neck and the Gibson SG made of high-end plywood and Fenders with different pups and necks from their originals. Things change. What's a "copy" and what's an original? did Gibson "copy" Fender with a plain board and pups in the designing of the SG - originally called a "Les Paul" but wasn't? Norlin and CBS era instruments may or may not be "up to quality" of prior or later Gibson and Fender instruments. When I got batch of guitars I still use today, neither firm had a very good rep on the street among musicians I knew. That's also what brought the "patent infringement" lawsuit because it was "patently" (intentional pun <grin>) obvious that many Japanese-made instruments were equal to or better in materials and workmanship. Martin went through some similar periods. Yup, there was a lotta crap, too. Horrid stuff unplayable or nearly so. Harmony and Kay went outa business to an extent due to the low-end crud flooding the market. Oh - and some pretty doggone decent stuff too. Again, nothing at all against any of these manufacturers, and frankly I'd say that even their companys' "low end" instruments today at least approach their own better overall standards of quality found over the past 50+ years. At one point some European guitars were quite nice, too. Some of Sweden's Levin guitars even included genuine Martin D28s. Sort of, anyway; they also were owned by Martin at the time. Most Levins before the factory shut down were marketed as "Goya" in the U.S. and were pretty doggone decent instruments at the higher end. Their classical guitars in the '60s were IMHO far superior to the Gibson "classical" guitars of the time, at least those I had a chance to play or listen to. So... nothing against brands that have been producing exceptional instruments for ages, nowadays they're also copying themselves with similar appearances and "new features" such as changes in bracing, types of finishes, etc. One might also note that in the Classical guitar world, changes in design similarly were made by folks considered today as the top high-end builders - functionally copying each other and constantly working toward "tone," but also to meet high-end players' expectations in tone, neck, etc. Each of the top makers, whether individual luthiers or mass production firms, is figuring how best to copy the design of others for their marketplace - and a $5,000 instrument is considered by many today an "advanced student model." Maybe it's 'cuz I started as a folkie and I'd soon had friends playing all sorts of instruments at all sorts of price tags in the late '50s through the '60s, but brand never really hit me over the head. Add pickin' classical to that mix where the names Type of instrument, playability for me, and whether or not it appeared the wood was from an orange crate and would fall apart soon were my criteria. Alas, then in the late '60s I went through my "brand conscious" period into the late 1970s. Made too many swaps of instruments I now wish I'd kept - some with "brand names" and some not. But it was this "everybody who plays this genre has this sorta guitar so you've gotta do the same." Nope. m EDIT: Oh - I'll not only agree with, but emphasize I ain't talking about "counterfeits" with Gibson brand names. That is against the law, and should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Interesting stuff. I've never thought about it but I guess I'm the same. No interest in copies personally - unless perhaps they were specialist built in recognition of the LP say, but certainly not mass produced knock-offs. If others like them though then that's cool - many countries where the originals would be unaffordable and /or unattainable to many great musicians and starters. I did buy a 1970's Aria SG 'copy' for my son when he was 7 years old because I had an affinity with Aria from my youth and always liked the SG shape (and wasn't about to buy a little boy a Gibson...) but wasn't interested in a modern knock off. Bought my daughter an Epiphone SG for similar reasons. My three personal guitars are all 'road worn' though age and lots of use (if not abuse) and I've played a couple of 'factory road worn' models from Fender and they don't look right to me - perhaps those Gibson collector series are more authentic, but the Fenders just looked wrong, especially in respect to the bodies and fingerboard wear, like new wood just exposed by sanding off paint. Oh well... whatever makes folk happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 my best friend and long time musical wing man has made a (part time) career out of gigging with guitars that I know for a fact that doesn't pay more that $275 for. EVER! Does it bug me? Not in the least. at his age, (past 60) and with the length of time he's been playing (50+ years) he can out fit himself what what ever floats his boat. And he's a very good player, and those $250 japanese and korean imports that he gravitates to, do him just fine. Thing is, he HAS the money to buy anything he wants. This is 100% his choice. He's often talked about buying a top end Gibson, or Martin acoustic, and I've definitely told him that he deserves it, "you should do it". But, he shows up for gig after gig with his black Takemeini that I think he paid $220 for, (he'll be quick to remind ya that he also spent 45 bucks for the hardshell case! :) ) Funny thing is, no one has ever said "he'd sound better with a $2,000 guitar!" Cuz,, he really wouldn't.. he'd still sound like him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I kinda feel the same way, but with different things. The way I see it, Fender isn't making "real" Fenders at all. I respect the fact they own the name and can put it on whatever they want. I'm good with it. But certainly, what I consider a GOOD Strat or Tele, the way I think it is supposed to be made from the holy lands in Fullerton and Santa Ana is based on a template that comes from a bible that Fender no longer uses. On the other hand, while a '79 Fender is far, far removed from what we might call a good guitar, it IS a "real" Fender in the sense that is what they were making then, and thus, a genuine part of history. I respect a 12 pound, thickly painted Goofy-necked polyester beast as a real Fender even though it is the opposite of what the original design was/is. I'm OK with it. I might even like it sometimes. Today's company and product, to me, are closer to the Fender of the 70's and 80's than the Per-CBS era. If, however, one is reverent to the art form, and is able and skilled in making, producing, a "Strat" or "Tele" in a religious way, I have no problem seeing the label of sainthood applied. Doesn't make it a Fender, and doesn't make it ok to benefit beyond artistic recognition or for profit. Do not blaspheme the name. It is holy. Especially true with amps. Many, MANY, have undertaken the journey of tone following the voice of the prophets spoken through the Jensens of our Fender forefathers. For these, they require no badge, and none is applied. The badge is applied to those who would pretend, but do not speak the words. Many have come in the name of "Deluxe Reverb", "Twin Reverb", and "Jensen" and have fooled many, but can not fool the elect. While those who are robed in tweed or tolex who have no badge speak the truth. Seriously though, the outright forgeries made in China and wherever that are made to fool people into thinking they are they real thing, that is the same as stealing. It's fraud and theft, not only of the name on the headstock, but to anyone who might buy. Even if they were good (which they aren't-worse than most think), I do NOT like being associated with them or anyone else who does. As far as "reissues" goes, I care more about the effort made to appreciate and duplicate, and the knowledge gained than the name on the headstock or badge. I think a guy who is spending money should be able to know what he is getting, regardless if it is expensive or cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazarusvt84 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 3 years ago I had three USA guitars...2 Gibson and a Fender. I got gassy and started buying lesser brands to build my stable and experiment...purchased another 5 or 6 guitars of lesser brands...and guess what, I'm back to the same three American guitars I started with. I've learned my lesson and got spoiled in the process. Can't say enough about Gibsons and Fender Deluxes. They just sound and play so much better than anything imported. My wife is relieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 People can play whatever they want and they don't have to justify it to anyone or get anyone's approval, least of all me, I'm just saying I'd rather have the real thing. Maybe I'm the stupid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Paul Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yeah I know what you mean.. I don't understand it either... Whats even worse is someone who knowingly tries to sell a fake as the real thing.. Now that deserves beatings.... Did you see this vid? He gets really upset about it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_H2ZmKP8E By the way fellas, the tartars on the woman in the vid?...they're fake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPguitarman Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I don't mind the Epiphone's or the Squire's, it's just Gibson and Fender's way of supporting the musicians who can't afford the "Real Things" or the starter musicians. I started my sons' out with Squire Strat starter packs. Then the both moved to Epiphone (Les Paul & Thunderbird). But their real aspirations are Gibson LP and Rickenbacker(bass). But they are still in the "can't afford it" mode. Cheap copies by other companies are just that, cheap copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vangoghsear Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 When I was shopping for my Tele, I tried a couple of affinity Squiers, which were not too impressive, a Yamaha Pacifica Tele that was actually pretty nice, way better than the Squiers. Then I tried a USA made Fender Tele and it was just miles ahead of all of the Squiers, but just edged out the Yamaha because of better pickups. It was 3x the money, (and they were all used), but if I was ready to buy that day, the USA Fender would have come home. Part of why it was three times the money is that I believe it held it's value better. Playing and hearing them that close together I could just feel and hear the differences. Yeah the original cost more, but I could definitely tell it was worth more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickGibsonDenver Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I dropped by a small music shop to check out heads, and the salesman dropped an LP knockoff into my lap that was leaning in a corner of the amp room. It felt fantastic in my hands, superb action, perfect neck shape and just felt super small. I bought it before leaving, brand new for $169. After getting it home, I discovered it's a Charvel Desolation DS-3 ST. Rosewood fretboard, mahogany body, dual HB pups, if held up to my LP it's the exact same shape, except shorter and thinner in the body (6 lbs total wt). It's even got the same bridge and 'tune o matic' setup. I figured it would make a great guitar to try out different pups on, and if I mess it up, that's better than marring my LP. I've had several friends try it out, and everyone loves it. So now it's my "go to" for a quick run across town with, I don't worry about damaging it, I use only a soft gig bag. It's definitely a Les Paul Knock Off, but it keeps my Gibson beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Isn't just about everything Gretsch and Giild ever made a copy of some Gibson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 There's no question in my mind that an outfit labeling their instruments "Gibson" or "Epiphone" when the guitars are not manufactured by or contracted for by those firms is making illegal counterfeits. OTOH, I think a good case might be made that there ain't nothing really "new" or "original" under the sun after around 1960 until such as the variax (that looks like a Fender or Gibson) and gibson's Firebird X. And even there, might the SG be considered something of a Fender "copy" given it's just a board or two plus strings and pups? As noted, Guild and Gretsch are good examples of fine instruments of their time but with significant appearance similar to other and older instrument designs and concepts. What of the fine archtops from small luthier firms that basically copied Gibson designs? And were Gibson flattops not to an extent copying Martin concepts and... I also don't think it's a matter always of "I'll go for the cheap copy 'cuz I can't afford the real thing." Even among Gibson instruments, for example, is the purchaser of an ES175 going for the cheapie because he can't afford a carved-top 17-inch archtop? Or is it because the smaller laminated "copy" of the concept is considered a better match? Or... note that similar changes in U.S.-made bolt action sporting rifle design are essentially variations of Mauser copies. Ditto the Remington and later Ruger revolvers versus the "original" Colt Patterson - or the Colt Walker - Or is the '73 Colt a copy of Remington's 1858 topstrap revolver patent that copies the revolver concept from Colt or... Or how the '64 Model 70 Winchester was panned because of some manufacturing changes, or... The latter example is IMHO quite similar to the howls we hear on occasion from LP players who would buy nothing but a Gibson. Or would they? The guitar I've played "out" most is probably my second least expensive - an Epi PR5e that's quite similar except for an undersaddle pup vs. a P90 to the old Gibson CF100e - and that basically hasn't been made except for a short '90s run since the 1950s. Why? it's almost perfect for what I do with a guitar and - I'm actually considering seeing if I can get a luthier to replace the 25 1/2 inch scale neck for a 24 3/4 scale neck from an Epi EL00 and a combination of costs that would put this little laminate instrument into the lower Gibson flattop price range. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Then why did you start this post in the first place? You started out knocking the fakes now it okay to play what you want. Stand on one side or the other. well I read him right KS is saying for HIM personally, HE wont go this route,, OTOH, he doesn't GAF what anyone else does. I understand this completely as I feel the same way 100% and by the way, from a few other posts. IMHO There is a big difference from a knock off, to a fake. With a knock off - you know it's a copy when you buy and people know it's a copy when you sell it. With a fake, if you bite on one, you've been had, if you sell it to someone with full knowledge it's a fake, and you don't disclose it, you're a toad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 well I read him right KS is saying for HIM personally, HE wont go this route,, OTOH, he doesn't GAF what anyone else does. I understand this completely as I feel the same way 100% and by the way, from a few other posts. IMHO There is a big difference from a knock off, to a fake. With a knock off - you know it's a copy when you buy and people know it's a copy when you sell it. With a fake, if you bite on one, you've been had, if you sell it to someone with full knowledge it's a fake, and you don't disclose it, you're a toad. I thought you were French if you were a toad. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Isn't just about everything Gretsch and Giild ever made a copy of some Gibson? re: Gretch.. with the possible exception of the Falcons, prolly... re: Guild - I think your spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I thought you were French if you were a toad. rct I am part french, but I don't speak it, nor do I know any toad.. I'm an Ahh-Murican!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 well I read him right KS is saying for HIM personally, HE wont go this route,, OTOH, he doesn't GAF what anyone else does. Thank you. Well put. You either 'get it' or you don't. All I'm saying is there's no way I'd own a Taurus; I'll save my money and get the Smith and Wesson it tried to copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Hayden Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Well said ksdaddy when you buy a "look a like " you're not getting quality first grade products , all so buy American and if for some reason you have to sell one day you'll get your money back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Hayden Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Isn't just about everything Gretsch and Giild ever made a copy of some Gibson? Yes looks like it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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