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Gibson Dove cherry sunburst 1965 0r 1968?


stanardph

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I believe 1968 is the year Gibson introduced the ebony fingerboad on the Dove. Its presence though might depend on when the guitar was made during the year. The pickguard on a '68 might also be screwed down. Gibson seems to have started doing this in '67 (a friend of mine has a '67 Hummingbird with this feature) but I do not think it was consistent. If the guitar was made in early '65 it also could still have the wider nut.

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If follows the Hummingbird and the Southern Jumbo, it'll have heavier bracing as well.

 

This will mean a major difference as the lighter interior characterises the treasured vintage and genuine G-sound.

 

That said, a 1968 and post '68 Dove of course could be very good.

 

 

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If follows the Hummingbird and the Southern Jumbo, it'll have heavier bracing as well.

 

This will mean a major difference as the lighter interior characterises the treasured vintage and genuine G-sound.

 

That said, a 1968 and post '68 Dove of course could be very good.

 

 

Problem is comparing the bracing to that which came before takes some real expertise which most do not have. Unless you are really familiar with the innards of a Gibson it will not be an easy thing to tell from looking or sticking your hand in there to feel around. Once you get past '71 it gets a whole lot easier.

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I think the bridge stayed the same. I mean the footprint anyways. I can't say about the tune-o-matic or lack thereof.

 

I had a '68 Dove some years ago. I think it went to Japan. If I can find the link where I pieced it together I'll post it. it definitely had the skinny neck.

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We are very interested in this question. I have a lot of data -- but I am not sure of its accuracy. But I'll tell you what we have.

 

Before 1965, the truss rod cover was black -- after 1965, it was white. Since according to my information, both occured in 1965, it can't prove 1965.

 

In 1965 and earlier, the Dove on the pickguard is inlaid. In 1965, that changed forever. If true, this is a smoking gun.

 

The finger board changed from BRW. But I have seen this reported as a change in/after 1965 and also around 1968. Does anyone know?

 

I am pretty sure ours is 1965, but doubt still lingers. Ours has a white truss rod cover, but a BRW finger board and an inlaid pick guard.

 

I have also seen comment that early 65s have "a wider nut like the earlier HBs." Well, ours seems quite narrow BUT it is the same as our 62 HB. Huh?

 

If anyone has real data on the evolution of Dove features, I would love the see it.

 

1965DOVEa.jpg

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

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When you view these tun o matic bridge guitars from the 60s.. take a mirror with you.. later Doves like J200s had double x thin top braces.. the mid 60s ones had thick braces.. ( Thick) .. Ive owned a few of both.. the double X braced ones were just not very good.. it killed the tone, tops were still very weak..

 

I know I made a point of getting rid of the ones I owned.. Crap years for Gibson in my opinion.

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When you view these tun o matic bridge guitars from the 60s.. take a mirror with you.. later Doves like J200s had double x thin top braces.. the mid 60s ones had thick braces.. ( Thick) .. Ive owned a few of both.. the double X braced ones were just not very good.. it killed the tone, tops were still very weak..

 

I know I made a point of getting rid of the ones I owned.. Crap years for Gibson in my opinion.

 

 

By 1960s double X top bracing do you mean the second thin wide angle brace above the soundhole? This bracing pattern had nothing to do with the tune-o-matic bridge as Gibson startted installing the second X brace in the J-200 in 1952. Never heard of this bracing pattern in a Dove though. As far as I know the J-200 was the only guitar to have that bracing footprint. I think you might be getting the Double X thing mixed up. The 1950s double X bracing is not to be confused with the 1970s pattern with a second X brace below the bridge and a bridge plate so large it filled up the diamond-shaped area between the two X's. The Dove certainly did get this version of the now infamous Double X bracing.

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By 1960s double X top bracing do you mean the second thin wide angle brace above the soundhole? This bracing pattern had nothing to do with the tune-o-matic bridge as Gibson startted installing the second X brace in the J-200 in 1952. Never heard of this bracing pattern in a Dove though. As far as I know the J-200 was the only guitar to have that bracing footprint. I think you might be getting the Double X thing mixed up. The 1950s double X bracing is not to be confused with the 1970s pattern with a second X brace below the bridge and a bridge plate so large it filled up the diamond-shaped area between the two X's. The Dove certainly did get this version of the now infamous Double X bracing.

 

Yes ! very important to clear things up here. Let's not create doubt about the double X - it's the second fortifying X behind the ordinary X, meaning toward the endpin of the guitar.

 

Thick and thin, , , normally the thin braces are used up till 1968 where they get bulkier, which steal sound -

 

When you view these tun o matic bridge guitars from the 60s.. take a mirror with you.. later Doves like J200s had double x thin top braces.. the mid 60s ones had thick braces.. ( Thick) .. Ive owned a few of both.. the double X braced ones were just not very good.. it killed the tone, tops were still very weak..

, , , opposite with the Doves !?!?

 

 

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Yeah, the top bracing in Gibsons up to 1967 is the same as they started using in 1955. The pickguards and bridgeplates though do get thicker. I just think there was a bit of confusion surrounding the J-200 Double X bracing of the 1950s which placed the second X brace above the soundhole and the Double X bracing of the 1970s that placed the second X brace below the bridge.

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I think one of the things you run up against with these guitars is they are not seen as old enough to really drive the Gibson "vintage" freaks to document their design and build history.

 

That is my take. I have been discussing the date of our Dove on the Vintage Gibson Guitars group on Facebook, and I have some new data. At some point -- clamied to be early 1965 -- the headstock tilt went from 17 degrees to 13 degrees -- ours is 13. Also many of the early hand inlaid and engraved pick-guards are signed (hidden) -- and H overlaid with a stylized S.

 

Our three 60s Gibsons -- 65 Dove, 62 HB and 65 F25 -- were all folk revival models. The first two make fine strummers in the 60s tradition, but they are not like the earlier models for sure -- tonally or power wise. Since we still occasionally do that style (nostalgically) , they have a place in our house.

 

Here are a couple of basement videos of us #1 #2 trying to remember how we did in in the 60s on our Dove -- which could never have afforded in the 60s. :)

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

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That is my take. I have been discussing the date of our Dove on the Vintage Gibson Guitars group on Facebook, and I have some new data. At some point -- clamied to be early 1965 -- the headstock tilt went from 17 degrees to 13 degrees -- ours is 13.

-Tom

 

 

The change in the headstock pitch was across the board. As far as I can make out when Arnie Berlin took over CMI from his father in 1965 the first things he did was start working to force Gibson Pres. Ted McCarty out and retooled including new automatic neck making machines. The switch to these machines coincides with both the narrower nut and reduced headstock angle.

 

The real significance to 1965 though is a change in mind set. For the first time in Gibson's history the shots were being called by college educated bean counters instead of guys who designed and built guitars for a living. Arnie Berlin, by the way is the "in" in Norlin which is why I tag 1965 as the beginning of the Norlin era.

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Here are a couple of basement videos of us #1 #2 trying to remember how we did in in the 60s on our Dove -- which could never have afforded in the 60s. :)

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

 

 

Tom, both of those videos are of the Dove, but video #1 is labeled as a Hummingbird on its title.

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NIce site KSdaddy! I especially enjoyed (and benefited) from reading your bio. I can't take walking for granted these days either....

 

And for the rest of y'all. When you start discussing this technical stuff it's fascinating. Like a mystery novel.

 

I wouldn't have thought the Norlin era started in 1965.

 

FMA

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Thank you for all the information. My Dove has a screwed down pick guard, a BRW finger board and a white truss rod cover. As far as top bracing goes I feel only one X but since top bracing is completely new to me, I'm sure I'm missing something. I'm thinking mine is a 68 based on the screwed down pick guard. I really like it's narrow neck and I'm happy with the sound. I don't play for a room of people so from my fingers to my ears, its perfect.

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