Aniline Dye - dangerous?

[Shadow Puppets]

I'm in the market for a ES335, and I'm particularly interested in one of the historic memphis guitars.

 

However, I wondered if I could ask you some questions about the use of aniline dye in the finishing process?

 

I have read lots of reports about aniline dye being dangerous, poisonous, and with adverse health affects for people. I assume this is why it was stopped being used in the 60s?

 

So I wondered what has changed that means it is now ok to use aniline dye in the finish of the guitars?

 

And are the dangers involved specifically to the person applying the finish, or is there some danger to the end user of the guitar as well?v(For example, if the nitro finish wears off over time, would the end user be exposed to some chemicals / aniline that could be considered toxic in some way?)

 

I apologise if this sounds very paranoid...I just like to be sure of the instrument that I buy.

[skilsaw]

Maybe Gibson will chime in here about the use of aniline dye.

If it is banned, it seems natural that Gibson would substitute an alternative.

 

But what if you want to buy a guitar that is more than 50 years old?

Does aniline dye retain its toxicity forever like something that was buried at Love Canal?

(if you don't remember Love Canal, you weren't here in the 60's)

 

Let's hear from the experts.

[capmaster]

Welcome here, Shadow Puppets.

 

Although part of aromatic amino acids, aniline is a toxic substance mainly causing bladder cancer among people handling it. This is well known since the late 1890s. Work protection is crucial where aniline is used, mainly for manufacturing and processing polyurethane and virtually all currently common dyes. The final products like guitars, clothes or heat insulations of buildings are not dangerous to health.

 

Hope this helps.

[Shadow Puppets]

Thanks for the reply. I'd really like an "official" comment from Gibson on it, just to put my mind at rest.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "I just like to be sure of the instrument that I buy."

 

 

 

Shadow Puppets.

 

Today, Health and Safety in the Workplace is right at the very Top of the Industrial Agenda.

 

Green Issues, with Finish related topics like Localised Volatile Emissions and Global Environmental Considerations are strongly involved within the context of that Overall Agenda.

 

The Public Relations aspects, Legal Accountability, and Harshly Financial Liabilities that could be negatively repercussive against any Corporation not in compliance with Health and Safety Legislation ensures that in Quality Companies, all such Issues are Adhered to, Actively Monitored, and Independently Audited by Expert, Official Bodies and Authorities.

 

Furthermore, there are Industrial Standards and Globally Recognised Qualifications again Tested by Expert Assessment, that Corporations Earn by allowing Experienced Top Expert Investigation of their Manufacturing Processes, and they Proudly Display their Hard Earned Conformances such as ISO Standards Accreditations amongst others. Indeed there are also Private Expert Specialist Companies that exist to Assess and Advise Corporations in addition to the now Standard Risk Assessments that occur. Specialists are Critical and Vital.

 

In short the Emphasis in Industry is all about Prevention and Elimination of Accidents which are on many levels Additional Unnecessary Costs to the Business. It is not only the Right Thing from a Moral Perspective, in Today's Litigious Environment, it also makes Solid Business Sense. Companies I have "an interest" in, currently are adopting a "Zero Accident Regime" and will not Tolerate a "Let's Take a Risk Culture". There is a Direct Additional Cost to Implementing This Policy, but it is a Lower Cost than Permitting the Alternative and Better Morally.

 

 

 

 

Professionally, I have "an interest" in Finishes and have done so for almost Forty Years.

 

Nowhere in Product Manufacturing, has undergone more Radical Material and Application Changes in Industry, and been subject to more Rigorous Outside Scrutiny.

 

You see, any Atomised Material has to have Overspray Sucked Away during Production, and during Flash Off and Curing of the Finish, the agents that allow Correct Fluid Viscosity of the Material are Evaporated and Effectively Amortised.

 

Anything involved in this Process or left over would eventually be (in the most Efficient Factories) Burnt Off by Turbo Re-Heaters or more commonly, Effectively Filtered and Emitted by Factory Chimneys into the Local Atmosphere by means of Volatile Emissions that everyone in the Neighbourhood would have to Breathe.

 

 

 

As you would expect. All such Factors undergo Strict Controls by the Appropriate Governing Authorities.

 

 

 

An Additional Salient Point to Consider is..

 

There are Materials used in Other Commonly Available Modern Types of Finishes that are Potentially Far more Dangerous than the Issue that is the Actuating Subject of your Concern.

 

So although Today in General, All Finishing Materials are Far, Far Safer in every way than even a Few Years ago. If you buy a Modern Instrument or an Historic Instrument, for the People Involved in Manufacture, there are always a small degree of risk, but only if they do not Adhere to Correct Processes. That Issue, Manufacturers have to Control and Eliminate by Statutory Government Requirements. So this Dye Factor should NOT be directing your Instrument Choice.

 

The Car you Drive is Safe if you and others around you Drive by and Stick to the Proper Road Rules and Safety Processes. When they do not, then a Car can be unsafe. The point is, any and all potential risk will have been Minimised in Every Possible Way for the Production Operators, who commonly in Industry have to undergo Strict Annual Medical Tests, to ensure they are Not being Negatively Affected by Atomised Materials. Potential Risks can be Further Minimised by the use of Programmed Robotic Sprayers where possible, the use of Personal Protection Equipment, and Regular Statutory Assessment of the Health of Individuals involving the Efficiency of their Breathing, amongst many other factors.

 

 

 

 

It is Factually the Case that the Type of Materials I am referring to here:

 

 

 

 

Are Entirely Safe in their Liquid Form.

 

Once the Finish is Cured and Hardened they are also Entirely Safe.

 

If you Sand Down the Finish following Atomisation and the Material is morphed into a Powder they are also Safe, However, you should use appropriate PPE such as Masks, as in the case of avoiding breathing in, any form of Powdered Dust.

 

Beyond that. These Materials referred to are only Potentially Dangerous, at the Very Moment of Material Atomisation, where the Fluid meets the Air at the Spray Guns Air Cap and Fluid Tip as used in the Spraying Booth, and turns into a Very Fine Spray to be applied as part of the Finish.

 

One good example of this are Isocyanate Clear Coat Finishes. Isocyanides are a family of Highly Reactive Chemicals found in Two-Part Polyurethane Paint Systems, featuring a Resin and a Hardener. So such an Alternative Modern Finish you might think to be "Safer" than the Dyes you are worrying about probably is the Opposite, but still safe when Applied Correctly.

 

In any case, the Operator Stands Behind the Direction of Spray, wearing PPE in an Environmental Booth where the Booths Environmental Air Travels at a Speed that Continually Replenishes the Air, via an Air Replacement Plant (ARP) Otherwise the individual wouldn't be able to see what he or she was doing, surrounded as they would be if the Clouds of "Over Spray" were going nowhere.

 

That is Actively Controlled so they can see what they are doing, (as they need to with a Sunburst Finish for instance) because the Direction of Spray is travelling away from them, and any Overspray, Actively Drawn away from them by a Sucking Action, the effect in the Environmental Booth of the Direction of Atomisation from the Gun, and both (normally and Ideally) Downward Air Travel from the ARP through Floor Gratings and the Action of Moving Water from a Weir Beneath the Operator or behind the Instrument.

 

 

 

 

The Waterfall and Weir takes any excess Material Away to be Skimmed Off and Dumped in an Approved, Environmentally Safe, Manner.

 

So the only thing you should worry about happens at the point where the Air and Fluid Material meet to Form it into a Fine Spray to be Applied as a Finish.

 

If you Breath that in, it could be harmful. Elsewhere, the Materials are Entirely Safe. But this point is the same for ALL Materials I am Describing. You weren't going to point the Spray Gun towards Your Face, Pull the Trigger and Breath in the Atomised Material Deeply, Were You? That would be Risky!

 

Furthermore its worth Emphasising that Strict Legislation in Controls of Volatile Emissions into the Atmosphere, means that Overwhelmingly, Manufacturers use Far More Benign and Safer Finish Materials than ever before. Most of these are Water Based Materials. The Spray Guns are Cleaned with Water and a Solvent that is like a Washing Up Liquid. Waterborne Materials can have some Additional Solvent. But if you can Clean the Spray Guns with Water, (Very Regular Cleaning is Essential with All Spraying Equipment) then it's as Safe as it gets, anywhere.

 

Luthiers involved with REFINISHING, (all Finish Spraying comes under one of Two Departments, Original Manufacturing Equipment, or Refinishing Equipment) are well used to referring to the Substantial Information Sheets that are supplied with Dyes. Material Safety Data Sheets (or MSDS) is what they are also known as, and the Coloured Dyes broadly fall into Three Categories, though none of that need concern you. Only those that Work with such Materials.

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional Gibson Guitar Finishes were Gradually Built Up using Layers of Dye Stains that Sink into the Wood and Build Over It.

 

However, Many Modern Finishes can economically blend a Colour Hue with a Clear Coat symbiotically mixing Processes and Apply the Finish Very Efficiently over the Wood.

 

Whether you buy a Modern Production Gibson or an Historical Model, or any Industrial Process Product, all Finish Materials during Application can have a Small Degree of Risk to the Production Operators.

 

But as a general point, Only if the Operators don't Adhere to the Proper Manufacturing Processes as they are Required To. However, any risk, Years Ago would have been Far, Far Greater, and Today these have been Ameliorated in Every Way Possible.

 

Mainly by Using Safer, Better, More Stable and Long Lasting Materials in the First Place, and Safer Application Production Technologies in the Second. Correct Production Process Adherence, by Production Operators at every Point not only Guarantees their own Personal Well Being, Health and Safety, but also Eliminates Quality Variables in the Product, and Ensures Improved Consistency in Manufacturing.

 

 

 

 

These are Matters for the concern of Manufacturing Industry and NOT the Customers, Purchasers and Owners.

 

All you need realise is that the Finish Problems that Plagued Products in the Past, are Far Less Likely to Happen in a Modern Product, because of Better, More Stable Chemical Materials.

 

Modern Aniline Dyes (as they are referred to) could today perhaps be better called Chemical Dyes, simply because the Formulations are Far, Far Safer than the older Types of Aniline Dyes that with the greatest respect, I strongly suspect you have in mind when you originally raised this question.

 

Years Ago Household Paint had Lead in it. Toys that Children put in their mouths were Finished with such Material. Paint Sprayers of the Period that concerns you were given Milk to Drink to help Dilute the Effects of Lead. What is termed "Progress" in this World, often turns out not to be what we had hoped for, but just sometimes, it is the case that things are Genuinely Improved for the Better.

 

Happily. In both the cases of Aniline Dynes and Lead Paint alike. This particular Question is a Good Case in Point!

 

 

 

 

So Buy the Guitar you Want.

 

 

 

 

 

But don't for a Moment Imagine that Good Quality, Cheaper Guitars Manufactured by Many Foreign Competitors, will have been Fabricated using the Safest Methods and Industry Standards, as I have described Above.

 

Its' an Extremely Good Reason to Buy American, and thereby do the Best for the World.

 

Makes like Gibson, Martin, Fender, Music Man et al.

 

Buy the Great Brands!

 

 

 

 

That is your Best Assurance against the Type of Safety Quality Issues you appear to be Concerned About.

 

For a Luthier, the Historic Finish would all thing being equal, probably easier to Repair.

 

 

 

 

Many Luthiers use Modern, Chemical, Aniline Dyes, Brands like Behlin, and Others.

 

If these are Bottled in a Powered Form, then simply DO NOT Breath in a Powder.

 

And Carefully Follow All Safety Instructions using PPE Strictly as Advised.

 

 

 

But if you are not a Luthier, you shouldn't be worrying.

 

Simply Buy and Play the Guitar, you like.

 

If you are a Person of Good Taste.

 

That will probably be.

 

A Gibson.

[Shadow Puppets]

Many thanks for the very well detailed reply Anthony. Out of curiosity, do you work for Gibson? It's just that this reads like an official response.

[Shadow Puppets]

I am at ease with 99% of what you have reassured me about Anthony. The only two remaining questions I have are:

 

- If the nitro finish wears down (from belt buckle rash, general wear over the years), is the end user ever put at risk of coming into contact with something unsafe (or have the toxic elements long ago evaporated)?

- aniline finishes are known to "bleed" into the binding of the neck. If they can bleed into the binding, what is stopping them bleeding onto your hands?

 

Many thanks again for your detailed response.

[Pin]

Blimey, I've read some paranoia in my time...but this stuff takes the biscuit.

 

Yes, you are perfectly entitled to ask shadow puppets and I hope you can be satisfied.

 

As for me, I'll just light up another cancer stick thanks very much...

[kaicho8888]

Anthony described OSHA's role and the manufacturer's responsibility to "safety in the work place" during production. But, the OP's question ask if there is a danger with the use of aniline dye to consumers? Yeah...which agency or agencies are looking at product safety.

 

 

 

It's too late for old farts like me. I've got guitars that are 50+ years old and been using them just as long...even the neck is now bare wood; but then, I don't chew on my guitar.