Jump to content
Gibson Brands Forums

Pickup+Amp (+me)=What Tone?


Silvercrow

Recommended Posts

So I'm done polishing, buffing and otherwise "futzing" with my new to me SG. I've actually been playing the darned thing! And I LIKE it!

 

It has 490R / 490T pups in it. If it matters, it also has the classic or old school wiring as opposed to the new circuit board and plug in type wiring.

 

I LOVE the 490T bridge position. Seems to me to be good for what I play (Classic Rock, Blues with a jazzier twist). The 490 R / neck has me wondering though. I'm reading through the threads on the "Gibson Gear" forum- seems folks like the 490R / 498T combo in some SGs/other guitars. Then others are saying that 490s in general sound "muddy" and should be replaced by ___(insert Favorite Pup here)___.

 

I'm playing through a Fender '68 Deluxe Reverb Custom amp. This is essentially a DRRI with a modified 1st input; both are wired for reverb / trem. and the 1st input / side has a modified tone stack similar to a '59 Bassman (as described by the literature). Dunno- I had a PTP wired '59 Bassman RI...to me it's comparing apples to oranges. HOWEVER- the 1st input has a definate "tweed" sound as compared to a standard DRRI. The second input is a tad more "refined" and I think the "bright cap" was done away with.

 

My "chain" is guitar>Keeley Mod. Bluesdriver> CryBaby Wah (true bypass mod)> above described amp.

 

I'm getting too much bass response / muddiness in the neck position at higher volumes / gain positions. Even with the tone knob full up on the guitar.

 

Any suggestions as to experimental settings? Or replacement options for the neck pup? (I am used to setting controls to wherever they sound best- I'm not a "crank 'em all up" guy...)

 

On either amp input I usually set the amp Vol:5-7, Treble: 4-6 Bass: 2-4, Reverb:2. I'm still experimenting with the BluesDriver's settings.

 

Thoughts / opinions / suggestions appreciated! I'm keeping the amp and can only afford one...so not an option there. Anything else is up for change. Thanks so much!

 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Brian!

 

I'd roll up the treble control on the amp first, and play with the pedal settings.

 

If all this fails, - before swapping out the pickup -, I would try a .015 micro-Farad capacitor on the neck pickup. It's just soldering...

 

Also, it made me wondering, did You put the wah after the OD? I heard about this way, even tried it, but hated how it sounded. You might try the put the wah in front of the OD pedal too.

 

Cheers... Bence

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Brian!

 

I'd roll up the treble control on the amp first, and play with the pedal settings.

 

If all this fails, - before swapping out the pickup -, I would try a .015 micro-Farad capacitor on the neck pickup. It's just soldering...

 

Also, it made me wondering, did You put the wah after the OD? I heard about this way, even tried it, but hated how it sounded. You might try the put the wah in front of the OD pedal too.

 

Cheers... Bence

 

Hiya Bence! Thanks for the cap. info.! You've given me some good info on several fronts lately...appreciate it!

 

As far as the wah- I modded it for true bypass, so at least in theory it shouldn't be coloring my sound; I don't leave it on much- truth is I use it very little. But, yeah, it is after the OD in my chain.

 

I'll do the suggested treble full-on too. Still playing with OD pedal settings. My whole life has been using single coils as in Fender products, exception being the P90s in my PRS. But I love the tones that pros like Warren Haynes and others of that ilk get with their humbuckers.

 

Another thing I didn't mention; I have OFTEN played lead using the neck pup of a Strat or Tele. I like the "throatier" sound and am apporaching that in recent playing with my SG- just have to find the settings / nuances of this as it is all new to me.

 

Before trading my LP Studio Faded I liked the BB Pros very much, but I realize that although both that and the SG are mahogany bodied- there are differences in constructiona and the BB Pros will not necessarily equate in the SG to what they were in the LP.

 

Thanks again Bence! I'm pretty well-versed in soldering and this is an affordble and easily reversible mod!

 

Brian

 

BTW Bence- I just looked again at your equipment list (very impressive!) and I note you use the same Wah as I did before foolishly trading it away. I recently purchased another Vox wah, but it was defective out of the box. I had a gift certificate to a LGS and as it was the only Vox they had I got the CryBaby. I like it fine- but had liked my old Vox better. Someday I'll learn!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Move the pickup down, that can help a lot if it is too close to the strings.

 

rct

Very true. DO THIS.

 

It's a very good guess this is a factor, because it is quite common for Gibby's to turn to mud in the neck position when the pup is too high. On top of that, very common on Gibby solid bodies to not have a lot of room to go down in the neck pup, so "too high" often "looks" correct or normal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't messed or played with DRRI's in a long while, and while I have seen the silver-faced reissues, I had no clue they were so "modified".

 

From playing Black-faced Fenders and Tweeds, I can tell you that one aspect of the Black-faced ones is that when you turn the volume up, it gets brighter as it gets louder. Tweeds, most of them, stay more "equal" in the EQ as you crank them.

 

So...if it is really a "tweed" style tone stack, good chance you can ditch the pedal. That will open up a LOT of possibilies and sounds, not to mention if you aren't relying on the pedal for your "sound", you could actually have another sound by stomping on the pedal occasionally.

 

Another thought, you might look at the speaker. One thing about the DR is that it works well with a LOT of different speakers, and you can change the whole nature of the amp. High powered speakers (C12n, C12k, etc) make for a loud, warm amp that has lots of cleans. Low powered speakers (C12r, C12Q, etc) get you an amp that breaks up nicely and has lots of dirt and bite. BOTH ways are common for a lot of guys.

 

Again, disclaimer this is from real ones, don't know how the reissues are with these changes, in particular the newer ones I have NO experience with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The closest to having this sort of problem came a cupla weeks ago when a PA screwup had me playing my floating-neck-pup-only archtop through an AE amp 'stedda as pre-set through the board itself.

 

Bottom line is that well-set for a big body AE flattop, the archtop had unexpectedly heavy bass response even with the tone control entirely backed off. I changed a bit how I was playing, (more nail on the bass notes, and closer to the bridge).

 

The guys above have good advice, but I'll add that I'd first try for "clean" with an overall tone you may like, then with that as a baseline, mess with whatever to get it finetuned.

 

I'll add that in my experience, it can take a bit before a Strat player gets an SG sound he/she likes. It's just a different sort of instrument.

 

m

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can also try adjusting the poles in the pickups.. this can also have an amazing effect sometimes.

 

But I don't actually know much about doing it, but there are guys on here who do..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THANKS Folks! This is all stuff I will try!

 

Milod- oh yeah...this Strt/Tele guy has a lot to learn...and dial in..

 

RCT / Rabs / Stein; what is a good starting point for adjusting the neck pup? It is close right now...about 2/32nds from the high E to the corresponding pole piece, between 3-4/32nds from the low E. This is without the strings fretted. The action is set very low- I like it that way- and has no buzzing. With my single coils -mostly AlNiCo 5 - it you got too close it would interfere with the string oscillation (proper term?) and was very obvious. I think both pups seem very close...I'll measure the bridge pup for S&G's in a bit.

 

Thanks for any and all info.

 

Brian...lost in Humbuckerville...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THANKS Folks! This is all stuff I will try!

 

Milod- oh yeah...this Strt/Tele guy has a lot to learn...and dial in..

 

RCT / Rabs / Stein; what is a good starting point for adjusting the neck pup? It is close right now...about 2/32nds from the high E to the corresponding pole piece, between 3-4/32nds from the low E. This is without the strings fretted. The action is set very low- I like it that way- and has no buzzing. With my single coils -mostly AlNiCo 5 - it you got too close it would interfere with the string oscillation (proper term?) and was very obvious. I think both pups seem very close...I'll measure the bridge pup for S&G's in a bit.

 

Thanks for any and all info.

 

Brian...lost in Humbuckerville...

Well maybe that's your issue right there... If the pups are too close they will actually pull on the strings and kill any sustain...

 

I would just lay your guitar on a table plugged in, strum the strings and try lowering until you like the sound..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question from me...

 

The "on a table" is how I've done similar stuff ages ago, but...

 

When I did, I set the guitar controls at max volume and mid-tone controls for neck pup and then ditto for bridge pup; had a DR (I said it was a long time ago) or AIMS Dual Twelve set very neutral on tone and relatively low volume...

 

In those days I just wanted max sound that didn't get muddy.

 

Is that what might still be recommended? Worked fine for me "back then." But that was pretty much pre pedal days.

 

m

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question from me...

 

The "on a table" is how I've done similar stuff ages ago, but...

 

When I did, I set the guitar controls at max volume and mid-tone controls for neck pup and then ditto for bridge pup; had a DR (I said it was a long time ago) or AIMS Dual Twelve set very neutral on tone and relatively low volume...

 

In those days I just wanted max sound that didn't get muddy.

 

Is that what might still be recommended? Worked fine for me "back then." But that was pretty much pre pedal days.

 

m

Well I guess that comes with experience with your own amp.. If you have settings you like and know are good use those..

 

Otherwise id say the general rule on the amp is stick everything in the middle (but as you say, max on the guitar (id max the tone too).. That way you have room to go either way on the dial after finding a good pickup height/sound..

 

I don't think theres much real science in it or even methodology (even if people say there is).. Just a common sense type thing :) do what works for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

THANKS Folks! This is all stuff I will try!

 

Milod- oh yeah...this Strt/Tele guy has a lot to learn...and dial in..

 

RCT / Rabs / Stein; what is a good starting point for adjusting the neck pup? It is close right now...about 2/32nds from the high E to the corresponding pole piece, between 3-4/32nds from the low E. This is without the strings fretted. The action is set very low- I like it that way- and has no buzzing. With my single coils -mostly AlNiCo 5 - it you got too close it would interfere with the string oscillation (proper term?) and was very obvious. I think both pups seem very close...I'll measure the bridge pup for S&G's in a bit.

 

Thanks for any and all info.

 

Brian...lost in Humbuckerville...

The way I adjust pups (all pups) is by ear. LISTEN to them. Obviously, what "sounds" best to you is the "proper" adjustment.

 

You obviously have some experience. The way I usually determine, is I lower until I start to loose volume, while at the same time, listening for clarity.

 

What I find usually happens, is after a certain point on the way closer to the strings, the sound won't get louder, but it will get fatter, and at the same time loose "dynamics", making the notes and chords sound the same regardless of how it's plucked or where played on the neck.

 

When lowering, at a certain point the sound will get less loud, but also get more clear, more dynamic, and pick up more "fidelity"-more differences depending on what the plucked string actually sounds like. At some point going lower, the sound will start to loose fidelity and fullness. A weak signal, not enough to get it all in from what is being played.

 

In MY experience, I usually end up with the pup at a place that is not as loud as can be had closer to the strings, but well before the weak point. Personally, I have not come across a Gibby solid body that can be adjusted too low in the neck position to become way too weak.

 

Grab a screwdriver, plug in, and experiment. Just try and ignore the volume, and listen to the QUALITY of the sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way I adjust pups (all pups) is by ear. LISTEN to them. Obviously, what "sounds" best to you is the "proper" adjustment.

 

You obviously have some experience. The way I usually determine, is I lower until I start to loose volume, while at the same time, listening for clarity.

 

What I find usually happens, is after a certain point on the way closer to the strings, the sound won't get louder, but it will get fatter, and at the same time loose "dynamics", making the notes and chords sound the same regardless of how it's plucked or where played on the neck.

 

When lowering, at a certain point the sound will get less loud, but also get more clear, more dynamic, and pick up more "fidelity"-more differences depending on what the plucked string actually sounds like. At some point going lower, the sound will start to loose fidelity and fullness. A weak signal, not enough to get it all in from what is being played.

 

In MY experience, I usually end up with the pup at a place that is not as loud as can be had closer to the strings, but well before the weak point. Personally, I have not come across a Gibby solid body that can be adjusted too low in the neck position to become way too weak.

 

Grab a screwdriver, plug in, and experiment. Just try and ignore the volume, and listen to the QUALITY of the sound.

Nice explanation [thumbup]

 

That pretty much covers it... You will loose out on one end of the scale or the other going up and down.. You just have to find a nice balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AGAIN- thanks! I am doing as recommended...which is really about what I did with the single coils...and I've got the neck pup dialed in pretty darn well! I was / am surprised at how much I could take it down and really not lose too much volume wise. But I've got that "throaty" tone I desire so much. Am working on the bridge pup now.

 

In a couple weeks a local GS guy is gonna install covers on my pups for me (I'm a little too chicken as my soldering iron is adequate wattage wise...but "just" adequate. I'll be doing careful measurements because I know it may not come back to me exactly as I had it.

 

ALSO these pups lean toward the bridge; rear of the pups slightly lower than the "neck side". I read this is not uncommon and where I read this I don't remember but apparently the "fix" is a small piece of foam under the "offending side" bottom of the pickup? It doesn't look so bad now but I'm thinking when I get covers on them it'll be more pronounced. Besides I'd like them to be "right" anyway.

 

Thanks again all!

 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AGAIN- thanks! I am doing as recommended...which is really about what I did with the single coils...and I've got the neck pup dialed in pretty darn well! I was / am surprised at how much I could take it down and really not lose too much volume wise. But I've got that "throaty" tone I desire so much. Am working on the bridge pup now.

 

In a couple weeks a local GS guy is gonna install covers on my pups for me (I'm a little too chicken as my soldering iron is adequate wattage wise...but "just" adequate. I'll be doing careful measurements because I know it may not come back to me exactly as I had it.

 

ALSO these pups lean toward the bridge; rear of the pups slightly lower than the "neck side". I read this is not uncommon and where I read this I don't remember but apparently the "fix" is a small piece of foam under the "offending side" bottom of the pickup? It doesn't look so bad now but I'm thinking when I get covers on them it'll be more pronounced. Besides I'd like them to be "right" anyway.

 

Thanks again all!

 

Brian

Nice one [thumbup]

 

My advice is not to get too caught up on the exact height..

 

I will tell you why.. Because as you develop and learn and change (how ever long you have been playing), so will your ear and your taste... What you like today you may not like so much in a few months.. It seems to be an ever evolving thing.. Which is why I dont pay too much attention.. If I play my guitar and dont like the way its sounding I alter it with the amp or the pups or whatever (like a pedal for instance) .. Its all good :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice one [thumbup]

 

My advice is not to get too caught up on the exact height..

 

I will tell you why.. Because as you develop and learn and change (how ever long you have been playing), so will your ear and your taste...

Yup. Certain adjustments, especially by ear, better to consider them "adjustable" rather than trying to keep track of every adjustment on every guitar.

 

Depending on who ya are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A

 

ALSO these pups lean toward the bridge; rear of the pups slightly lower than the "neck side". I read this is not uncommon and where I read this I don't remember but apparently the "fix" is a small piece of foam under the "offending side" bottom of the pickup? It doesn't look so bad now but I'm thinking when I get covers on them it'll be more pronounced. Besides I'd like them to be "right" anyway.

 

Thanks again all!

 

Brian

Truth is, it really doesn't matter unless you want it to.

 

Nearly every Gibby will have the neck set at an angle, and pups mounted more or less flat with the body. If that's wrong, then all Gibby's must be wrong.

 

Besides, the strength of the adjustable side isn't the exact same strength is the "slug" side. Also, many pups are made with coils of un-even strength either on purpose, or by accident.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Truth is, it really doesn't matter unless you want it to.

 

Nearly every Gibby will have the neck set at an angle, and pups mounted more or less flat with the body. If that's wrong, then all Gibby's must be wrong.

 

Besides, the strength of the adjustable side isn't the exact same strength is the "slug" side. Also, many pups are made with coils of un-even strength either on purpose, or by accident.

 

Thanks for this. The pups are not parallel to the top= slightly askance. It doesn't seem to affect the tone as I took a matchbook top, folded it and stuck it temporarily on the one side. I just thought it might look worse once the covers were on....perhaps I think too much! [blush]

 

While all of this is a bit embarrassing to me, I am learning a lot; including how much I didn't know about guitars, Gibbys in particular. In the past if I didn't like the tone, I'd go to a trusted luthier or guitar shop, tell him what I'd want; he'd order it in, set it up and I'm in business. One older gentleman in my area, who's been in business for over 40 years, does setups that are extremely repeatable and accurate for a whopping $30-$40 per set-up. He's got a gizmo he straps the guitar to- has gauges and all sorts of mechanical voodoo on it. Once it's dialed in to your liking, he writes the settings down on a 3x5 card. Not many folks come to him because he's not a "big name" in the area (Philadelphia has a ton of supposed "big name" guitar guys / luthiers)and if it weren't for his music lesson rentals he'd be out of biz. I met him years ago because he was a G&L dealer and I favored those guitars.

 

Again- I'm talking too much.

 

Thanks Stein...and all of you! You guys and this site are great!

 

Brian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...