Matt237 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Hey all, looking for advice on removing the factory fitted LR Baggs Element UST from my Hummingbird (MC). Its very rare that I actually use the pickup (don't like the sound of them) and if anything, I'd rather mic up to record. I've already replaced the factory saddle with a bone one, which I fitted to give a nice action. I kept the bone saddle to the same width as the factory one (3mm) which is a slightly loose fit in the bridge (well, lifts out easily with fingers, has a tiny bit of play to rock backwards and forwards in the bridge slot, which according to LR Baggs is necessary when used with their UST pickup.) My question is whether there would be much / any improvements in the acoustic sound by completely removing the pickup? I would then replace the saddle with another new bone one, which I would keep slightly wider for a more 'snug' fit in the saddle slot. Logic to me says that the UST must be impeding the acoustic sound in some way?? Its nearly 1mm thick, and sitting between the saddle and body must have an impact on the sound? Surely a nice, snug fitting bone saddle in direct contact with the guitars timber would make more sense? Anyone already done the same, and whats the impact on the tone like? If there is very little noticeable difference, then I'll save myself the cost of a new saddle and the hassle, and leave the pickup in!! Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I had the luthier remove the pickup from my 2008 J-50 the first time I had a setup. I just hate the sound of under-saddle pickups and was sure I would never want to use it. I didn't really notice much if any difference in sound without the pickup though. But that allowed me to put a vintage DeArmond magnetic pickup into the soundhole, which I really like. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_no Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I removed the whole Element system from my J-45...pickup, cables, control, battery pack. Put in a new bone saddle. Don't know if I could tell the difference a blind test, but it's nice not to have all that stuff in there if you're not going to use it. I put in a K&K pure mini (least obtrusive/good sound), but if you don't want anything else, you can get an oversized end pin for a strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe M Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm like the OP, never plug in my acoustics and never will. I'm pretty sure the only new Gibson you can buy now without built-in pickups are the TV models. That being said, the only reason I can see to not remove the pickup is if you intend to sell the guitar in the future, many players WANT the pickup. Otherwise, I'd take the thing out, I can't believe it wouldn't help the sound, at least a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjunk Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I removed the Element from my J-45 Standard, and YES, for me it did improve the tone. The saddle was replaced with a nicely snug fitting bone one at the same time, so it's hard to tell how much credit should be given to the saddle material vs. the lack of the UST, but it was an improvement for sure in my case. I got rid of the battery as well and had a K&K mini installed, sounds much more natural plugged in to me. I just can't imagine that some piece of material existing between the saddle and the bridge would not affect the tone at least a little bit, and it's nice to have all the clutter gone from inside of the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebob Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Depends on your needs. If you gig out and need amplification, then you're going to need a pickup of some sort. If you never need to amplify, then removing all electronics makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 That element pickup is so thin, I don't think it makes any difference to your acoustic sound. If you remove it, you can mail it to me???…lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djw171 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I've had my luthier fit a bone saddle to both my Southern Jumbo and J15. Big improvement over the factory one. Nice tight fit. You can turn the guitar upside down without strings on and its doesn't fall out. LR Baggs still fitted. I love the sound personally. Best natural sound UST system I've played / used. I gig at least once a week and have had many comments on the quality and realistic acoustic sound of the guitar(s). It's personal preference I guess. I do believe though it's what you are plugging into also that's going to influence the sound. I use a Roland AC90. Fantastic amp all around for my needs. It's pretty poor that Gibson do not fit a bone saddle / nut as standard for the price we pay for these Acoustics imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt237 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Thanks for all your input. Well, I've ordered a new bone saddle, which should be a tight fit in the saddle slot, and is tall enough to try it with the UST removed. I'll try initially just pulling the UST back into the body through the saddle slot, leaving all the wiring in and try it to see if there is any improvement / difference. If not, I may just sand the saddle down and leave the pickup fitted. Either way, you never know unless you try these things, and its cost me like £15 (US $23 ish?) for the saddle, so nothing lost!! I never use the guitar for gigging, and at most I occasionally record with it, but much prefer to mic it up for this. I'll let you know my findings!! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Can you say where you got the saddle matt? I hate ordering blindly on eBay or the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElChris Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I too pulled out the elements pickup from my j45, can't say I noticed a lot of sonic change but I figured why have a bunch of wires inside a solid wood guitar if I never plug in. A friendly heads up though: when I removed the USP on my j45 I bought the stewmac nojack endpin but it does not cover up the hole left from the elements jack. So if you are looking for an oversized endpin I would probably look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt237 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Thanks for the heads up with the end pin! I'll have to look into that! I've ordered the saddle from chris alsop guitar, which is based in Derbyshire, UK. I've ordered from him before, and its all good stuff, made accurately and to measure. My current saddle is one made by Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR GIBS Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I don't like undersaddle piezos and my luthier removed the L.R.Baggs Element from my J35 and my J45 Cobra burst. I leave these Ëlements" as some "bonus" to my luthier. I use other pickup systems (NOT L.R.Baggs) I don.t use tusk and plastic saddles on my high end guitars (on my low end guitars too!) Only real bone. Nuts too. I don't want nothing under the saddles of my high end guitars but their bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt237 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Hey, well just as an update, heres what happened; I removed the UST pickup (temporarily left it in the guitar body tied up onto the cable clips so it doesn't rattle) and fitted the new bone saddle. The new saddle was ordered to be a snug fit into the slot (3.2mm wide), as opposed to the previous one which was quite loose (3mm wide - factory saddle width). Obviously the new saddle is taller too to compensate for the removal of the UST. At the moment, this has raised the action a fraction (gone from 6/64 bass and 4/64 treble, to 7/64 and 5/64). Tone wise, there is a definite change. There is a very noticeable increase in volume, and this has given an improvement to the dynamics. Overall, the guitar sounds a bit brighter too maybe. The biggest difference is in how much more resonant it is. I can feel much more vibration through the entire body and neck, and the whole sound is much more free and open and ringing. It also seems to have more balance when playing from near the neck to near the bridge. I haven't changed strings or anything else, just pulled the UST out and fitted a new, tighter fitting bone saddle. I guess there are 3 contributing changes; the lack of the UST; the tighter fitting saddle; and the slightly increased action, all probably adding a little to the overall change in sound. For anyone who doesn't use it plugged in, definitely worth doing I would say!! :) Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR GIBS Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 My personal opinion is that you did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I guess, the other thing to try, maybe, is the original saddle minus the element. Obviously, one could simply get 2 saddles made of the same stuff, one for the element and one without. Or try different widths (loose or tight). Seems a VERY good question. As much as folks make of different saddle materials, I would think the effect of having an element under the bridge would be at least as important. But one never knows unless they try, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Great result / answer to your orginal question! Thanks for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt237 Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Yep, I'm pleased with the results. And for now, I'll leave the Element wiring inside the guitar body (its all tied securely on the cable clips) with the battery removed. That gives me the option of reinstalling the pickup with the old saddle during a string change, should I ever need it. But I'd rather leave it out and enjoy the louder, more resonant, ringing tone of the saddle tight in her slot ;) Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 The nice snug fit of the saddle is surely the focus point of this improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGM Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Hey, well just as an update, heres what happened; I removed the UST pickup (temporarily left it in the guitar body tied up onto the cable clips so it doesn't rattle) and fitted the new bone saddle. The new saddle was ordered to be a snug fit into the slot (3.2mm wide), as opposed to the previous one which was quite loose (3mm wide - factory saddle width). Obviously the new saddle is taller too to compensate for the removal of the UST. At the moment, this has raised the action a fraction (gone from 6/64 bass and 4/64 treble, to 7/64 and 5/64). Tone wise, there is a definite change. There is a very noticeable increase in volume, and this has given an improvement to the dynamics. Overall, the guitar sounds a bit brighter too maybe. The biggest difference is in how much more resonant it is. I can feel much more vibration through the entire body and neck, and the whole sound is much more free and open and ringing. It also seems to have more balance when playing from near the neck to near the bridge. I haven't changed strings or anything else, just pulled the UST out and fitted a new, tighter fitting bone saddle. I guess there are 3 contributing changes; the lack of the UST; the tighter fitting saddle; and the slightly increased action, all probably adding a little to the overall change in sound. For anyone who doesn't use it plugged in, definitely worth doing I would say!! :) Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGM Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 I have the same thoughts with USTs negatively affecting the saddle to bridge coupling. I typically take cheap guitars and improve them. On a Fender acoustic electric that I have I'm wanting to change the saddle to bone and remove the UST. This along with some other changes (string slots in the bridge, different pins) should improve the 'unplugged playability'. However, I would like to keep the electronics (same IsysIII preamp but fit a different (perhaps under bridge plate) transducer. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoSoxBiker Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 I had my Baggs Element replaced with the Anthem mic-based system that sells for $299. Love it! I have been wondering about putting a shim or two under the saddle to see if I like the strings up a bit more. I'll do that before going with bone, just so I know my height preference on my new hummingbird ahead of time. I'm getting a little ahead of myself here as I plan on really getting to know the bird before doing much more with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 If you're never plugging in and don't foresee the need to plug in, then yeah, take the thing out. It may not be enhancing the unplugged sound of the guitar, but it certainly isn't helping it. I will say this, though.... Last summer, I had the Tusq saddle of my Element-equipped J-35 replaced with a better fitting Colosi bone saddle. The guitar still has the Baggs Element in it (which I use from time to time) but replacing the ill-fitting Tusq saddle with one that fit much better brought an improvement in tone, volume and sustain. There are times when I'm tempted to have the Element system removed and just mic the guitar when I need amplification. Unfortunately, I currently live in a country where you can count the sound guys who know how to mic an acoustic on two fingers. So, more often than not when gigging here, I plug in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 I have the same thoughts with USTs negatively affecting the saddle to bridge coupling. I typically take cheap guitars and improve them. On a Fender acoustic electric that I have I'm wanting to change the saddle to bone and remove the UST. This along with some other changes (string slots in the bridge, different pins) should improve the 'unplugged playability'. However, I would like to keep the electronics (same IsysIII preamp but fit a different (perhaps under bridge plate) transducer. Any thoughts? Replacing a UST with an SBT is fine, but I doubt you’d get much in the way of useable sound from a totally different transducer going into a pre that is designed and voiced specifically for the UST. There are a few issues at play here, mainly that an SBT such as a K&K needs to see at least 1Meg impedance at the front end of whatever it’s plugged into to get maximum balance and sonic bandwidth, if you will. If your iSys pre has that input impedance or greater, you’re one step of the way there. The next problem you’re likely to encounter is the iSys pre’s voicing being tailored to work with a UST, which typically exhibit a nasal upper mid spike which is especially evident in the attack transient of each note (this is the “quack” that is often mentioned in relation to USTs). Normally a UST preamp will have a built in EQ curve which notches out the offensive nasal elements of the attack transient somewhat to make it more palatable to the player and listener. SBTs, however, tend to shy away from the aggressive, percussive attack transient and have more of a lower mid hump which can make them sound throaty and honky (think a goose rather than a duck!). Often an SBT NEEDS a boost in the very top end of the mids-the very thing a UST preamp notches out-to stop it sounding woofy and indistinct when strummed. It also needs a lower mid cut, which your UST preamp won’t provide, to smooth out the honk. Although the iSys will have EQ sliders, these won’t be optimised for the places on the sonic spectrum that the SBT needs help with. My instinct would be to replace the UST element of the iSys system with a higher quality unit (the K&K FanTaStick is excellent) and upgrade it that way. Having said all that, the SBT>iSys tone might really work for you...it’s all subjective after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 ...it’s all subjective after all! This... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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