Improving Clarity (in this case, in an Elitist Casino)

[johnnyvn]

Hey all,

 

In my possession, I have two Elitist Casino's. One is the current '65 Elitist. The other is the Limited Edition '65 Elitist Casino "Vintage Outfit".

 

In comparing the two ACOUSTICALLY (not plugged in), the Vintage Outfit is quite a bit clearer sounding. More brilliant, less dull.

 

Now, this may be due simply to new strings vs old strings. I bought both of the guitars second hand, so I have no idea about how much either guitar has been played.

 

STILL, I'd like to pose the question to the experts here.

 

What do you believe are the main ingredients to CLARITY. (You know the sound, that sound where when you hit the open string, it has a clear, piano-like quality).

 

Speaking only acoustically, here are some possibilities:

 

1) How many ply and type of wood

2) What type of tailpiece (trapeze, bigsby, stop tail).

3) Type of bridge and material

4) Material used in nut

5) Strings

 

There might be more (feel free to add).

 

But in your expert opinion, what are the most important aspects to achieve CLARITY?

 

Thanks much, everyone.

 

I'm also going to be starting a thread regarding Elitist '65 Casino VS Limited Edition Elitist '65 Casino VINTAGE OUTFIT for anyone who would like comparisons between the two.

[Steve112]

This is an interesting topic, I'd be interested in knowing as well!

[bobouz]

I'm also going to be starting a thread regarding Elitist '65 Casino VS Limited Edition Elitist '65 Casino VINTAGE OUTFIT for anyone who would like comparisons between the two.

So the "Limited Edition Elitist '65 Casino Vintage Outfit" is the very recent model - made and initially released in Japan?

 

And indeed if that's the one you have, a major difference would be the three-ply maple top, as opposed to the standard Elitist Casino's five-ply top. Also, the new model has a nitro finish as opposed to poly.

 

Although it would be easy to say these differences might account for the tonal variations you're hearing, I've found significant variations in tone and responsiveness just within the regular Elitist Casino line. I think it is wiser to assess each instrument on it's own merits, rather than rely on one example of each model to assign and then generalize a baseline.

 

When I purchased my Elitist Casino in '09, I played four of them side by side, and only one truly stood out. I've had this scenario play itself out many times, including a three instrument comparison purchase of the 2012 ES-330 VOS.

 

If you can do multiple comparisons of the same model in one sitting, it usually turns out to be most illuminating!

[johnnyvn]

Bobouz,

 

I generally agree but would like to make two points.

 

1) One question would be, when playing guitars of the same model side-by-side-by-side, what do you think made (in your cases) the one stand out (presuming that you mean that the *sound* of the guitar stood out to you). Would you think it's a combination of the various possibilities I outlined above? Or do you think it was the way the nut was cut? Or the string age? Etc.

 

2) Secondly, my original post really wasn't in search of an answer specific to my two guitars, nor an answer specific to a general make and model, but rather...what are the main ingredients in producing clarity in any instrument?

 

PS. Yes, I am aware the my "Vintage Outfit" uses poly and has 3-ply versus the 5-ply of my normal Elitist Casino.

 

I do suspect that I should put new strings on the normal Elitist and see what difference that makes.

 

I just have no experience with changing nuts, bridges, etc, so I have no point of reference there to how much either affects "clarity".

[ratty]

Hello, johnnyvn.

 

This is an interesting question, but I would just like to clarify something first. You mentioned the instrument's acoustic sound and I wondered why you consider this to be important as an instrument such as a Casino will normally played amplified, after all, that's what it's designed for. OK, sitting at home strumming it to learn a part is fine but it won't be used like that mainly, will it? If it is, an acoustic guitar may be a better bet.

 

Comparing the unamplified sound to the amplified sound of electric guitars is something that often gets various forums' members at each other's throats as some believe it possible to assess the quality of an instruments amplified sound from its acoustic sound and others do not. Is that the kind of thing you want to answer? Or are you purely interested in the theoretical side of your guitar's construction?

 

But whatever it is that interests you, I can tell you that P90 pickups are some of the cleanest in the business. I had a 330 many years ago (which the Casino was based upon of course) and it had unbelievable punch and clarity.

[bobouz]

Bobouz,I generally agree but would like to make two points.

1) One question would be, when playing guitars of the same model side-by-side-by-side, what do you think made (in your cases) the one stand out (presuming that you mean that the *sound* of the guitar stood out to you). Would you think it's a combination of the various possibilities I outlined above? Or do you think it was the way the nut was cut? Or the string age? Etc.

2) Secondly, my original post really wasn't in search of an answer specific to my two guitars, nor an answer specific to a general make and model, but rather...what are the main ingredients in producing clarity in any instrument?

I do suspect that I should put new strings on the normal Elitist and see what difference that makes.

I just have no experience with changing nuts, bridges, etc, so I have no point of reference there to how much either affects "clarity".

Johnny - It seemed that you wanted to compare the tonal properties of two different models. My basic point is that when trying to set the baseline for such a comparison, you may not be comparing the most stellar examples of one, or the other, or both instruments. There can be wide tonal variations within any given model, and a sampling of three or four side by side will generally reveal the full capabilities of that model.

 

Beyond that, in looking at hollow body electrics like the Casino & 330, I believe the acoustic tone heavily influences the plugged in tone of the instrument, so the acoustic tone will tell you a lot re what you can expect to get out of that guitar. Bright & punchy, or dark & somewhat muted? But then there can be differences between two sets of P90s, and one set may not sound as crisp as another.

 

I think you hit the biggest nail on the head re strings. Regardless of all the minor tweaking possibilities out there, you've got to first start with the set of strings you normally use & prefer to make valid comparisons. And changing string sets from that initial point of reference can be a worthwhile experiment.

 

Imho, other assorted little tweaks may have a minimal impact, but most likely will not radically alter the inherent properties of the body and pickups. On the other hand, reversible tweaks can offer a lot of no-risk fun!

[johnnyvn]

Johnny - It seemed that you wanted to compare the tonal properties of two different models. My basic point is that when trying to set the baseline for such a comparison, you may not be comparing the most stellar examples of one, or the other, or both instruments. There can be wide tonal variations within any given model, and a sampling of three or four side by side will generally reveal the full capabilities of that model.

 

Beyond that, in looking at hollow body electrics like the Casino & 330, I believe the acoustic tone heavily influences the plugged in tone of the instrument, so the acoustic tone will tell you a lot re what you can expect to get out of that guitar. Bright & punchy, or dark & somewhat muted? But then there can be differences between two sets of P90s, and one set may not sound as crisp as another.

 

I think you hit the biggest nail on the head re strings. Regardless of all the minor tweaking possibilities out there, you've got to first start with the set of strings you normally use & prefer to make valid comparisons. And changing string sets from that initial point of reference can be a worthwhile experiment.

 

Imho, other assorted little tweaks may have a minimal impact, but most likely will not radically alter the inherent properties of the body and pickups. On the other hand, reversible tweaks can offer a lot of no-risk fun!

 

Ratty, I share Bobouz's belief that acoustic tone will tell you a lot about a guitar even prior to plugging in. To elaborate further, if the acoustic tone of an electric guitar is dark and muddy, I think that it's electric tone will be starting from that point. To compensate, you could turn up the treble on the guitar and/or amp, and you could do most of your playing on the middle or bridge position. But still, if the acoustic tone is not "clear", it will be harder (impossible?) to achieve the clear tone you may be going for. That's my opinion. I look at it kind of like a house. The foundation must be perfectly built, even though once in the house, you won't see the foundation at all.

 

Bobouz, I might not have communicated the basic question clearly. Yes, I'm using my Casino's as the example here, but the basic question is more to determine on any guitar, what variables will have the most affect on tonal clarity. You said, "There can be wide tonal variations within any given model", and while I agree 100%, my question is: what would be the leading factors in the wide tonal variations within any given model? That's the real question I was hoping to pose via this thread...

[bobouz]

my question is: what would be the leading factors in the wide tonal variations within any given model? That's the real question I was hoping to pose via this thread...

Honestly, this is where I believe the magic comes into play that makes once piece stand out versus another.

 

If we took ten guitars built in exactly the same manner off the same production line, chances are they are going to fall into a bell curve with a few at the top with a stellar tone, the majority in the middle with good tone, and a few at the bottom with a less responsive tone. The "magic" is in the variations from one piece of wood to the next, and the "tonal quest" is to search & find those pieces that reflect the tone you want to hear - or for many of us, the tone our mind craves.

 

For better or worse, I don't believe there is a lot you can do to alter acoustic tone by manipulating the minor factors such as the bridge and nut. Strings, yes, they can impact tone significantly, but most modifications will deliver subtle variations, rather than change the inherent character of a guitar from dark to bright, or mellow to punchy.

 

Some companies, like Taylor, have done everything they can to develop a cookie cutter production method that will produce a consistent product. But when all is said & done, there is no way to produce two wooden boxes that are completely identical. A few will possess those magical qualities we seek, and others will not.

[ratty]

Hello again johnnyvm,

 

yes, I understand where you are coming from, but as I suggested, and bobouz seems to back up, consistency when dealing with naturally occurring materials (wood), it is difficult to find. As an example, I once needed a guitar in a hurry. My weapon of choice is usually a Strat when venturing into unknown territory, and at that time my local shop had 12. I tried them all. The last one I tried was a Squire in Lake Placid Blue, the cheapest and,to my eye, the worst looking. It blew all the others away. So, you can never tell.

 

But I agree, you'd think a nice, light sounding, ringing acoustic tone should produce a fabulous amped sound. But it ain't necessarily so.

 

I did buy that Strat and I still have it. Well, my son has it.

[bobouz]

But I agree, you'd think a nice, light sounding, ringing acoustic tone should produce a fabulous amped sound. But it ain't necessarily so.

So true, and that's where those wonderful pickups factor in.

 

Here's a little more info regarding the four Elitist Casinos I compared side by side. This was back in 2009, and they were all newly built in '09. The acoustic tone was actually quite close between the four. Where three of them fell off the map was in their plugged-in tone. The good one was far more responsive than the other three when amped. Also in the room that day was a mid-60s ES-330. It had a very skinny neck & some structural damage, but still produced a great plugged-in tone. Of the four Elitists, only the one good one came close to the sound of that 330.

 

On electric guitars, good acoustics will establish a responsive foundation. But that foundation only transfers so far to the plugged in tone, and then the electronics will build upon it. Of course an amp will further control & impact the final result, and that ability to tweak the final outcome is what makes electrics so darn much fun!