j45nick Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Reading BK's Tonerite discussion, it occurred to me that he is the perfect person to compare these two models. In another thread here, the question was raised as to whether the CEO-7 is a Gibson L knock-off, or whether the 1930's Gibson L small-bodies were (and are) knock-offs of the 1920's Martin 14-fret OO. Since BK has both guitars--a vintage L-O and a modern CEO-7--he could shed some light on this by comparing the two guitars dimensionally and tonally, although his Gibson has undergone a number of changes over the years. Top and back bracing, body depth and planform, and construction details comparison would be most interesting. C'mon, BK. We know how you love to take pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjunk Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Nice topic! Looking forward to his thoughts on this. I have a CEO-7 and the 1928 L-1 reissue. They're both amazing and very very different, despite the similar specs (small body, short scale, mahogany guitars with adi tops). The L-1 is the most comfortable guitar I've ever played in my life. It must be some magical combination of the 1.8" nut, neck profile, and body shape. The Martin has a 1.75" nut and a more pronounced V profile, but still very comfortable. The Martin has noticeably wide string spacing at the bridge... 2-5/16"+ maybe? The Gibson is built a bit more lightly than the Martin (it's a lighter build compared to other Gibsons too). The Gibson has a superior sunburst :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Nice topic! Looking forward to his thoughts on this. I have a CEO-7 and the 1928 L-1 reissue. They're both amazing and very very different, despite the similar specs (small body, short scale, mahogany guitars with adi tops). Thanks for jumping in on this, and congrats on owning a nice pair of guitars. I would expect substantial tonal differences between the 1928 L-1 and the CEO-7, as their body shapes are quite different. The L-O/OO models are much closer in body shape to the CEO-7, so that one should make a really interesting comparison. BK 777 has a much-modified vintage L-O as well as the CEO-7, and his take on this will be interesting. He's not only an excellent bluesman, but a thoughtful analyst of all things guitar (although he pretends to be just your average Oz-based guitar plinker). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjunk Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Ahh, I thought all the L-0 and L-1 models were the same body shape just introduced with different woods. Looks like the L-0 model was transitioned to the L-00 body shape at some point... indeed a closer comparison I imagine! Thanks nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Don't know about this one, Nick. I'm sure I could close my eyes and ID any Gibson-Martin compare when strummed. Bet you can too. The tones are that distinctive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Don't know about this one, Nick. I'm sure I could close my eyes and ID any Gibson-Martin compare when strummed. Bet you can too. The tones are that distinctive. I agree. The question is "why?" on two guitars that appear to be so similar in so many respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Ahhh, yes. You'd have to match up time periods and body size/styles to make it work, right? Old growth tonewoods and bracing materials would have to be laid out side by side, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Thanks for jumping in on this, and congrats on owning a nice pair of guitars. I would expect substantial tonal differences between the 1928 L-1 and the CEO-7, as their body shapes are quite different. The L-O/OO models are much closer in body shape to the CEO-7, so that one should make a really interesting comparison. BK 777 has a much-modified vintage L-O as well as the CEO-7, and his take on this will be interesting. He's not only an excellent bluesman, but a thoughtful analyst of all things guitar (although he pretends to be just your average Oz-based guitar plinker). Of course, flattery will get you nowhere, but I am not clear on what is wanted. Didn't I do this already months ago? But you want internal photos of each? BluesKing777 driving princess to train station, back soon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Didn't I do this already months ago? But you want internal photos of each? BluesKing777 driving princess to train station, back soon.... You may have, and I must have missed it. Apologies if that is the case. I was thinking of it in the context of the "controversy" about Mr. Martin saying that the L-O was a knock-off of a Martin (presumably the 1920's 14-fret OO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'll bet there's a schitload of good comparison info available on what makes these two iconic maker's particular tonal characteristics differ. When I get some free time I'd love to plunge into it, but in the meantime I feel fortunate to have both sounds at my fingertips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie King Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have a CEO-7 and a L-00 with Bubinga back and sides that I got off of CL. The Gibson is more comfortable but both are great players. The Gibson has more punch but the Martin is warmer. I love them both but play the Gibson a bit more than the Martin. Two great guitars IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have a CEO-7 and a L-00 with Bubinga back and sides that I got off of CL. The Gibson is more comfortable but both are great players. The Gibson has more punch but the Martin is warmer. I love them both but play the Gibson a bit more than the Martin. Two great guitars IMHO. I am fortunate enough to have the Blues King L-00 as well as the 1937 Gibson L-0 and the Martin CEO7! Not one of them sounds anything alike! Only thing the same is they have 6 strings. But I think Nick wants me to measure them and take internal photos, which I don't know how to do.... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I BluesKing777. Hmmmmm........ I'd say they are half-siblings, at the very least. Have you laid the L-O and the CEO back-to-back to compare shape and dimensions? How do the body depths compare? Anybody have a late 1920's 14-fret OO for comparison to these? My favorite of those three is the L-O (except for the modern logo, of course. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjunk Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Not sure how true this is or if it applies here, but I was told recently by a Gibson Rep that their acoustics use a more drastically radiused top than the other major brands, which helps contribute to their signature midrangey tone. He also admitted he was more of an "electric guy" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Can't wait for someone to link us to the definitive research on theories of where the differences lie, but my 30's era L tops feel very thin, almost balsa-like. My friend's pre-war Martin 0 and 00 guitars are thicker. Is this a starting point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hmmmmm........ I'd say they are half-siblings, at the very least. Have you laid the L-O and the CEO back-to-back to compare shape and dimensions? How do the body depths compare? Anybody have a late 1920's 14-fret OO for comparison to these? My favorite of those three is the L-O (except for the modern logo, of course. ) Back to back and front to front, the L-0 and CEO7 are identical in every way excepth the fretboard is longer on the CEO7, but the soundhole is in the same spot....and bridge, and nut and neck joint..yep, all of it. The Gibson has the 'open book' or snake face headstock, but the very tip is level with the Martin.... I want to get bracing photos and I don't want to loosen or take the strings off - I have an inspection mirror but that and camera need 5 more hands. I saw a thing recently where you could get an attachment lens for the iPhone - plumbers etc use them to inspect the poopshutes. I rang the local camera shop and asked if they had such attachment and the guy rather rudely asked me if "I was 'aving a larf?" Not to be deterred..... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Can't wait for someone to link us to the definitive research on theories of where the differences lie, but my 30's era L tops feel very thin, almost balsa-like. My friend's pre-war Martin 0 and 00 guitars are thicker. Is this a starting point? Yes, it is, particularly if those characteristics are pervasive across multiple examples. The previously-mentioned top radius difference (if true) could also be a significant factor. I believe that Gibson typically uses a "tighter" fretboard radius, which should mirror the top transverse radius to a large extent. We may be getting somewhere here. It is practical to compare top radius (in both transverse and longitudinal directions) and thickness, and back radius (in both directions) as well. Back thickness (and rim thickness) is harder to measure with precision, since the differences are likely to be fairly small, and there is no direct access. I'm sure someone, somewhere,e has already written a treatise on all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The Martin CEO7 has a 'thinned' Adi top and "Golden Era Style" 1/4" Adi braces...1 3/4" nut and 2 5/16" bridge spacing, Mod V neck and it just has great "real estate" for fingerpicking. Beautiful guitar! The 1937 Gibson L-0 has similar spacing but too many characters have fiddled with the neck, one shaved the V off between the 2nd and 4th fret!!!!! Very awkward to play there if not used to it and a capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret is my usual choice...foibles of old guitars that experts have fiddled with ...... a loud brash guitar. More foibles - my old 1944 Martin 0-17 has had everything thrown at the poor thing too over the years..someone put a new notch for the 1st string on the ebony nut about 1/4" inch in...why??? The 0-17 has a thinnish mahogany top, 1 11/16" ebony nut and 2 5/16" non original bridge spacing and just the non adjustable ebony rod in the neck, so it is a nice guitar to play fingerstyle, but the mid 30s models had 1 3/4" nut and a few other changes that also make them worth 3 times more than mine...if you can get one... Again I found I like to play it with the capo on the 2nd to 4th fret.....sounds great late at night, wel truly sensational really, but not a loud guitar. Don't make me choose!!!!! But if I played all 3 together in a shop today, this very day and I had no other guitar, on general playing and sound, I would pick the..................................................................................................................................... :) BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 ...you'd pick which? One for flatpick and one for finger. Which for both? The old L0? Oddly, it's the most tiring of mine to play, but the one I grab most often, though I love my Martin for sustain and 'chimey' character. My friend likes the percussive sound when I play 'Suzie Q' on the L0, my sister loves the ring of the Martin when playing '4 and 20'. I think top thickness and density (hard to measure) is at the crux of tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 ...you'd pick which? One for flatpick and one for finger. Which for both? The old L0? Oddly, it's the most tiring of mine to play, but the one I grab most often, though I love my Martin for sustain and 'chimey' character. My friend likes the percussive sound when I play 'Suzie Q' on the L0, my sister loves the ring of the Martin when playing '4 and 20'. I think top thickness and density (hard to measure) is at the crux of tone. I would pick vintage for tone and a new for playability and the beater Hummingbird copy for the blues night..... otherwise cross the legs all night or take the vintage whatsit to the bathroom, bar, car, terrace.... And there is a quandary. I have fiddled with my phone camera and see it has a flash and other useful devices - later I will.... loosen strings and photo braces...already tried with the strings tight and got some great shots of my shoes! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I loosened all the strings on the Gibson L-0 to take these photos inside - forget it! You do it! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 An Aussie humidifier? That sucker looks big as a mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 An Aussie humidifier? That sucker looks big as a mouse. Just a baby, JZ - the mother lives out near the lawn mower! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 In another thread here, the question was raised as to whether the CEO-7 is a Gibson L knock-off, or whether the 1930's Gibson L small-bodies were (and are) knock-offs of the 1920's Martin 14-fret OO. I believe the first 14 fret 00 did not appear until 1933. The OM (000 14 fret) appeared in 1929. Also I think the L-00 and the L-0/1 always shared a body shape. The fly in this ointment is that the L-0/1 existed -- and went through some body changes -- before the L-00 came along. Let's pick, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Regardless of who's on first and specs. there is always tone. The CEO7 has what I hear has that distinctive Martin note definition from string to string. Working from memory, the CEO7 I played was fatter/punchier than a 14-fret 0018v (that one was thin to these ears, but still had that definition). L0/L00s Ive played dont have that level of definition, but they have a ring, sweetness on top and chordal blend which is most appealing. I need one (hah). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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