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Gremlins In My Gibson


ChrisGM

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Hi everyone,

 

As I mentioned on my intro, I recently purchased, about 2 months ago, a brand new/old stock 2013 Gibson LP Studio electric guitar from Thomann in Germany, so it was a mail order to Spain, sight unseen. I have to add that Thomann packed it incredibly well, the best I’ve ever seen..

 

I am a beginner player and I've been trying to learn more about guitar care/maintenance/setup etc.. I want to know how my instrument works and how to properly care for it.

I have a long background in mechanical maintenance and I’m also a collector/repairer of antique American railway pocket watches, so I have a good knowledge of mechanical practice, machining, tooling etc at least I think I do LOL

 

I’ll try to keep this as brief and factual as possible, but I've noticed something on my guitar and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny what I think it might be..

 

Initially it was playing fine, except that it was very hard to depress the strings the further down the neck I went, lets say from the 12th fret – 17th.

I read in many places that it is always a wise thing to have a guitar setup when it is new (and at intervals) I live in Spain currently and I can say with all honesty that finding any kind of thing here, apart from a tobacco, bread, clothing store is like a treasure hunt, so finding a luthier would be a quest for the holy grail, then I’d have to cross my fingers that he wouldn’t make things worse.. I’m not implying that there are not good craftsmen here, there are many very talented people, it’s just finding them. I’m not in any circle of musicians over here so I don’t have a word of mouth contact. My only viable option would be to pack it back up and ship it back to Germany…ouch.

 

After reading much on the subject, I decided to make a few checks. Please keep in mind that I am new at this and possibly some of you long term guys will be organizing a posse to come get me and string me up by my thumbs, get a rope LOL So I beg for patience..

 

Here’s my check list

 

1. With a 4” machinist level I checked the neck across the center of the new and unscathed frets, while tuned up, from the 1st to the last fret, checking for unevenness, it was good.

 

2. With a 12” machinist straightedge I rechecked down the center of the neck, it was ok, level or straight.

 

3. From the 1st fret, with the guitar in tune and no capo attached, I measured the high E string which measured 2/64th’s from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string.

 

4. I measured the low E string in the same way which had 3/64ths

 

5. At the 17 fret (not sure why I went with 17) I took the same measurements… which were – high E 1/8th - low E a hair over 1/8th

 

I didn’t check the intonation at this point.

 

I may be way off base in my thinking but doesn’t the neck “usually” bend either in a convex or concave manner? And the truss rod is, in a sense an adjustable compensator for this type of warp issue?

 

It appears that the strings on my guitar have more of an angular misalignment in the horizontal rather than the result of a bow as they progressively get higher as you travel towards the pickups? Which brings me to the next steps I took..

Bridge adjustment, so I read, everywhere LOL that the bridge adjustment, up/down, is supposed to compensate for this type of high string issue, if all other variables are good?

 

So before I tried to adjust the bridge, I wanted to make sure the nut was ok, I mean, I just assumed that with it being an American made Gibson, that a new nut would be cut to perfection. So, with a 6” machinist level, with the guitar slightly de-tuned, I gently placed the rule under the strings, lay it flat on top of the frets, and placed the edge against the nut slots.

It appeared that the slots were the same height as the top of the frets, not sure if that is correct? I assumed it was but it was hard to determine with so many different opinions and contradictions on the web.

 

Next step, I proceeded to lower the bridge using the thumb screws. I found some measurements from Gibson somewhere but I don’t remember exactly, I think they were 3/64ths for the high E and 5/64ths for the low E, which would have made it a lot more comfortable to play. So I aimed for that, got it at the 17th fret. Unfortunately the strings at the 1st fret were now touching the frets. I could just insert a piece of paper between the two. So no good.

I decided to raise the bridge back to its original position which I marked. All fine and dandy, I figured I’d wait and just live with the high strings until I had to change them or found a luthier type person.

When I plugged it into the amp to practice, I found that it now had a beautiful electric hum/buzz LOL which stopped when I touched the metal parts, OH GREAT :-(

 

So again, after infinite fruitless searches on the vague to zero information highway, I came here for help..

What I did find, was that it “might be” a ground problem, and the only thing I really touched that might have a ground, was the bridge.

I have read that “some” Gibsons have a grounded bridge, while others don’t, it seems to be hit and miss, even in the schematics I’ve found, it shows a ground, or in some cases, a ground to bridge.

 

Can anyone confirm if the bridge actually has a ground wire either soldered or hair pinned to the bridge screw/bolt anchor? If yes, which side?

 

I feel that the newly present electrical hum/buzz definitely is related to the bridge adjustment as this is really the only thing that moved, slightly..

 

Any insights would be greatly appreciated…

 

Chris

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hello. I can understand Your nervousness about finding a good luthier. I had a similar situation, with everything above the twelfth fret being hard to fret, full of fret buzz. All I can tell You. Is that my luthier said that the neck was too flat. He didn't mess with the bridge. He fixed mine with only Truss Rod adjustment. Go on YouTube and do a search for Les Paul How To Adjust Truss Rod. You do not want your neck to be perfectly flat. The neck should have a slight conCAVE bow to it. I believe that this is achieved, in the case of a flat neck, by LOOSENING the truss Rod. Follow the expert's advice on how to loosen it. My luthier did not even touch the bridge. He made mine very playable by only loosening the truss Rod afdjustment. I think that he turned it one-half of a turn, and that was enough to take mine from a condition very similar to Yours, to a very nice, playable height by raising Your strings off of the frets.So, I would return the bridge adjustment to where it was, and loosen Your truss Rod one-half of a turn. If You do this, I think that Your guitar will be playable On the upper frets. I would look for a YouTube expert with some CREDENTIALS before You touch a thing. I also would get a proper Gibson Truss Rod Adjustment tool. I hope that I didn't confuse You, and my memory is clear because I just had mine adjusted last week. Good Luck My Friend. ajay

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There is a ground wire that runs inside the guitar from one of the pots to the underside of the bridge.

If you open up the control cover, you'll see 1 lone wire heading into a hole towards the bridge

Guess that wire could have come disconnected with the bridge.

You can test this by running a wire from the bridge over top of the body of the guitar, to the nut that holds the output 1/4 jack to the side of the guitar.

If it stops humming permanently then you found a loose ground wire.

 

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Thanks very much gents, for the useful info..

 

Ajay - thank you for sharing that information, I hear ya loud and clear, it makes me feel more comfortable heading gently and cautiously for the truss rod adjustment.

Sounds like we had a similar occurrence..

 

Eracer- thank you also for the tip, I'll give that a shot today and report back.

Fingers crossed!

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Don't forget to mark the truss rod nut with a marker so you'll know where you started at..

 

Fret the guitar with one hand at the 1st fret & the other where it meets the body & then look mid way at the relief..

If it got a lot of bow you'll see the gap, This would require tightening/clockwise of the truss rod nut..

Turn it just a small amount & sometimes it takes a day or two to settle in..

 

If you action is too flat Losten the nut

 

Hope this helps!!

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That truss rod theory sounds good to me. In my case I learned everything I know about setting up a guitar reading and watching videos on youtube. And if you take your time it shouldn't be that hard to find your perfect set up. On both of my Gibson's and on my GF's Epi I had to do some little adjustment's. On everything, truss rod, pickup, bridge and tailpiece height. Once you've done it a few times it's easy to know how you like it. Well I know a few places here in Valencia (Spain) where to find a good tech or luthier, but I think I know better what I like. And I always prefere to know how my things work.

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Guys thanks a lot for all of your help and input so far...

 

Here's how it sits before I adjusted anything...

 

I measured the nut slot on the low E string.

I put a straight edge along the first 6 frets up to the nut.

 

With a machinist rule I measured horizontally from the bottom of the straight edge, which is technically, the top of the frets.

To the bottom of the nut slot of the low E string.

 

The measurement is only 2/64ths so in reality, I can never achieve more than 2/64ths of height at the 1st - 5th fret

 

The string height becomes progressively higher as we go down the fret board...

6th fret 3/64ths 12th= 7/64

17th fret down... 9/64ths

 

That is, due to the bridge being jacked up to it's maximum height. This is why I have 9/64ths at the neck PU and 2/64ths at fret 1.

 

In my head, there is no way to raise the strings at fret 1. Because at that point it is dependent on the nut.

I feel that the nut is definitely the issue and was not cut correctly or is too small in height. Or both?

 

So, just to test, I took the previous advice and decided to see how the truss nut looked.. Frankly, it was chewed up. I'm not sure if this is normal, but there was no room under the nut to fit the tip of a very tiny watchmakers screwdriver.

This would explain plier marks on the truss nut.

 

The second thing, only half of the threads were engaged, so it had practically been loosened right off, and was on with maybe 2-3 threads.

 

I had to machine down a 1/4 drive socket to almost wafer thin, and then chip away some material around the nut to get it to fit.

even then it was tricky because the shoulders of the nut were damaged by someone using pliers before.

So I had to grind out the socket to fit the chewed nut LOL but I enjoyed it:-)

 

So, in three separate turns, I tightened the truss nut 1/4 turn.

My mark was at 12, I stopped at 3.

Obviously I could not loosen it.

So I caused a small bow, which reduced the low E height at fret 17 by 1/64.

Nothing changed at fret #1.

 

I also lowed the bridge, that in combination with tightening the nut, gave me 5/64 at fret 17.

But I still have 2/64 at fret 1 low E

And only 1/64 at fret 1 high E.

 

So it looks like a nut job!!

 

I took some photos which ill post later.. I hope I've explained this correctly so it's not muddled LOL..

 

Ok, the electrical hum/buzz

I tried the wire trick from bridge to ground... No change..

 

HEADKNOCKER -

I used your suggestion and there was no bow, in fact the low E is almost fretted without me touching it LOL

When 1st and last are held down, the string is perfectly flat on every fret, no space anywhere..

 

Mr Jones -

I totally agree with you sir, I trust my own care & work, until I'm stuck that is LOL and I've followed the same path as you have, YouTube, a book..

 

I contacted Thomann, they asked me to try it myself. If not I could send it back to DE at their expense for repair. Which is an option ill keep open.

They also said they'd cover any repair cost should I do it myself or find a tech. So very fair and good service..

 

Chuck -

 

I picked up an 8 ft mogami cable about 1 month ago, I sit about 6 ft away from the amp.

It only started humming after I tried to adjust the bridge.

 

I disconnected all accessories, FX pedals etc..

 

What say you gentlemen... A nut job?

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In this shot you can see the plier marks on the rod nut, possibly because there is no room to attach a socket..

 

post-72777-057082200 1435792340_thumb.jpg

 

The nut has been damaged enough to make it difficult to attach the socket. You can also see that is is only attached by two threads, maybe for shipping?

There is also no space under the nut, after this shot I had to chisel out some of the.... whatever it was, wood, nitro, not sure..

 

post-72777-051060600 1435792525_thumb.jpg

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Sounds like You are remaining calm, and with humour. That's very good. It's too bad that the guy before You chewed up the adjustment nut. People get in a hurry, and screwed up a part that is a factory job to replace. I can't see any good reason to freak out and take a pair of needle-nose to a brass nut. He should get a sound spanking! When are You ever in such a hurry that You don't at least have time to modify a small socket as You did.So, is it playable now or not? I wasn't able to gather that information from Your post. Anyway, I hope that Your chisel doesn't come out of the back of the neck anyway. I'm a little confused. If You're tightening the Truss Rod, that should be performed because Your strings are too high off of the neck. Anyway, I do hope that You're able to get Your guitar adjusted to a point where You can make music with every fret on the neck. Good luck my friend, and be gentle with that chisel. I think that a good luthier could replace the nut on Your Truss Rod so that it can be adjusted with the proper tool. Good luck, and Rock On!

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I'm convinced that you are more than capable of setting your guitar up.

 

I measured the nut slot on the low E string.

I put a straight edge along the first 6 frets up to the nut.

 

With a machinist rule I measured horizontally from the bottom of the straight edge, which is technically, the top of the frets.

To the bottom of the nut slot of the low E string.

 

The measurement is only 2/64ths so in reality, I can never achieve more than 2/64ths of height at the 1st - 5th fret

 

2/64th (1/32nd) is .031" which sounds ok to me. However, after you are satisfied you have the truss rod adjusted to give you a small amount of concave relief (to allow space for the string vibration) and if you STILL have any fret buzz, then you may need to raise the nut. A thin piece of shim (.004" - .006") under the nut will probably suffice.

 

good luck

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There's one thing I don't get.

On your first post you say that it is a brand new old stock guitar. But the plier marks on the truss rod tell a whole different story. Is it b-stock?

Or did a tech at Thomann set it up before it was sent to you? Maybe I'm missing something. Well anyway Thomann's customer service is top notch from my own experience, and if you have to replace the nut it would be maybe a good idea to let them do it. If it's on their cost you should consider it. They even have an own plek service there, i think they could fix it very good. The only bad thing about it is, that you probably would have to wait a long time until you get your guitar back. Had to wait over a month for an amp head that they replaced for a new one. But I have to say it was more DHL's fault than Thomann's. Wish you luck.

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If it's a 2013 that nut should be PLEK cut. If so, and I believe it to be the case, I don't see how it could be badly cut. I suppose that the same genius who ground up the Truss Rod Nut could have filed on the nut grooves. My nut is PLEK cut, and the string,s sit up high on the nut as they should. If he had left it alone, a smile Truss Rod Adjustment would have fixed the problem in about two minutes.

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Thanks guys.

 

I have to admit that I'm still a bit confused about what the actual string height is "supposed" to be.

I may be way off base with the way I'm measuring but it still seems like no matter what I adjust I have this type < of misalignment? Is that normal or am I looking for a non-existent problem?

 

I'm guessing that the Low E string should be relatively the same height along the entire fret board??

 

Just to reiterate ... It began because my lower strings.. fret 12 down, are really high, yet at fret 1 they were very close to frets 1 - 4

A business card had to be pushed under, kinda tight.

 

So when I tried to lower the bridge, the strings were now good ( 5/64) at fret 12 to the last fret last but touching the higher frets.

 

Everything I've tried since hasn't helped or has created another issue at another point.

 

Ajay - I agree and thank you for your kind words:-)

 

Evan - that's what I'm thinking and the 2/64ths is what Gibson states, so maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way lol

 

Mr Jones - via mail order you never know, but Thomann have a good reputation and when I requested a 2013 model, they had to order it. Which took a month. So as far as I know, it's NOS and unused.

 

I've no idea if Thomann touched it. When I received it via them, it came wrapped in case and 2 boxes resplendent with Gibson security stickers holding the packing together. So I guess, assume, suppose, that Thoman didn't touch it?

 

Ajay - good point, and like you say, the cut of the slots look good. Could too much have been shaved off the bottom I wonder??

 

There are a few imperfections on the nut, which are really nothing and don't bother me, it's a bit rough at the sides, there is a kind of break chip on one side, the top radius is uneven, there's paint along the bottom (which I though was a shim)

 

These are insignificant things but, at least in my mind, would it show not quite full concentration when it was made? Maybe a Monday or a Friday nut LOL

So maybe, might the height be out by 1/64 +/_?

 

I'm not going to use it until I get it figured out, I've actually ordered a PRS SE which I tried at a shop during a trip, it was a very amazing guitar and wow, the finish and detail were excellent and I like the birdies haha

I was looking at a guild and a gibson SG but the PRS just felt and sounded right, if that makes sense.

 

Reminds me of Harry Potter... The wand chooses the wizard, in this case the guitar :-)

 

Thanks again for all of your patience...

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Here's a former post with setup instructions from a guy named Dave at Gibson Memphis. All the info is here. Make sure you do the stuff in the proper order. Check the relief first. If it's too much, try tightening the nut. It's possible the there's too much relief and somebody's been tightening the nut to try to get it right. If you have any more questions, ask.

 

"Hi I'm David the final inspector at Gibson Memphis. I can give you the factory spec

info. on our setups. You will need a mechanics rule to do this properly.

To check neck relief: fret the low E at the first and 15th fret (not 12th) reach to the

7th fret and tap string. There should be a small space between string and fret - no thicker than a piece of paper. Do the same with the high E.

ACTION:

fret low E at first fret and measure the distance from the bottom of the to the top

of the 15th fret. It should be 5/64" (cm. 0,1984). Do the same with the high E,

measurement should be 3/64" (cm.0,1190).

Now measure the string height at the nut; underside of the string to the top of the

fret. Low E and A should measure 2/64" (cm. 0,0793), D and G =1.5/64" (cm.0,0595) and B and high E = 1/64" (cm. 0,0396).

If string height at nut is correct, recheck string height at 12th fret with strings open. Measurement for low and high E's should be the same as measurement taken at the 15th.

PICKUPS:

Fret low E at 22nd fret and measure pickup height from underside of string to point

on pickup closest to string. Bridge pickup should be 3/64" (cm.0,1190), neck pickup

should be 4/32"(cm.0,31751).

Fret high E at 22nd fret, distance for both pickups should be 3/32" (cm.0.2381).

Play test: Play every string at every fret checking for buzzes. Bend High E string 1

and 1/2 steps, beginning at the sixth fret and ending at 22nd, checking for "choking"

and to make sure string stays in nut notch."

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It is entirely possible that the neck is warped. If You are following the order of things to correct low string height and it is still screwed up Then the neck could be twisted. Once in a while it's possible for a neck block to be too moist, and as it dries it can twist. It's probably time to send it back to the shop that sold it to You. When You get Your Paul Reed Smith, if You like the set up then measure the string heights and ask them to set it up to those specifications. If the neck has a twist they will discover it for themselves. When You loosen the strings to ship it, lower the strings two steps so that they can't claim that it twisted because You had no string tension on the neck.You shouldn't have to drive Yourself crazy over a new Gibson. New Gibson's are supposed to be FUN!

 

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BadBluesPlayer - Thank you for that great setup guide [thumbup]

 

Ajay - Once again, I agree..

 

OK, here's where I'm at...

 

I followed the setup guide previously posted.

 

As you can see, the distance at the nut does not allow me to lower the strings to recommended height at the 15-22 fret.

 

If I set it at 5/64ths at the 15th to 22nd fret, then the string at the first fret is almost touching the fret.

 

The only way I can achieve 1/32nd (2/64) at the first fret, is by raising it to a higher than comfortable level at the PU end.

 

The neck relief is good, I set it per the instructions and checked it numerous times with two straight edges.. I cannot loosen the truss nut anymore than it was when I first checked, because it was on by only 3 threads.

 

So, with the recommended 5/64ths at the 15-22 fret, I had major fret buzz, only when set at the height shown in my diagram, does that fret/string buzz go away... But the lower strings are now hard to depress too high! [cursing]

 

Would I be correct in assuming that if the nut was raised by 1/64th or even 1/32nd (max) that I could then lower the string at the 15-22 fret and still have 3/64ths at the first fret?

 

Thanks for your patience guys...

post-72777-073046600 1436031829_thumb.jpg

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It doesn't take patience to try to help a nice, intelligent person. You're trying Your best, and nothing is working. I would ask the Dealer if they have another one in that color. I have a strong feeling that Your guitar is going back to Gibson for a new neck.

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Thanks Ajay, I appreciate the vote of confidence and your input..

I'll try and check the neck, I have a small laser unit for checking flatness, if I take three shots, left, right and center, it should give me at clue, hopefully..

 

The other thing I'm thinking is the string diameter. I can't seem to get a constant reading from my mic, or vernier, but they don't seem like 10's, possibly 9's ? would 9's be the standard for LP studio models?

 

I have a spare set of 10's, I wonder if they would sit fractionally higher in the nut slots, maybe it might make a difference, or prove/disprove..... something 8-[

 

I REEALLY don't want to send it back to the dealer, we have become one LOL , so I want to try everything possible before that final, bitter step, ya know, it's leaving on an old fashioned steam train, the neck sticking out the window with me waving goodbye, crocodile tears in my eyes [crying] :lol:

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1436043788[/url]' post='1672964']

Thanks Ajay, I appreciate the vote of confidence and your input..

I'll try and check the neck, I have a small laser unit for checking flatness, if I take three shots, left, right and center, it should give me at clue, hopefully..

 

The other thing I'm thinking is the string diameter. I can't seem to get a constant reading from my mic, or vernier, but they don't seem like 10's, possibly 9's ? would 9's be the standard for LP studio models?

 

I have a spare set of 10's, I wonder if they would sit fractionally higher in the nut slots, maybe it might make a difference, or prove/disprove..... something 8-[

 

I REEALLY don't want to send it back to the dealer, we have become one LOL , so I want to try everything possible before that final, bitter step, ya know, it's leaving on an old fashioned steam train, the neck sticking out the window with me waving goodbye, crocodile tears in my eyes [crying] :lol:

 

Heck. Get a set of 9's. It can't hurt. And if You have to play extra light strings until You can get it to a Luthier, oh, well! Also, where exactly do You live? I assume that You're in Spain, but where is the nearest good sized city?

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