btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 ...and the finish specs for the Les Paul Studio: Color Code: MM Surface Texture: Smooth/ Hi Gloss 90 Sheen Lacquer Filler: Walnut Sealer: 1–1.5 mils Top: Pthalo Blue #508–A5V–1186 Top Coat: Hi Gloss Lacquer/ 90 Sheen 7–8 mils Scraped: Fingerboard Sides and Nut Same! Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 And to sum up: "Microscopically thin, the finish on a Gibson acoustic guitar first requires seven main coats of nitrocellulose lacquer. After drying overnight, the initial seven coats are then level sanded and given two additional coats. Left to dry for five additional days, the finish is then wet sanded and buffed to its final glass-like sheen. The time-consuming nature of applying a nitro finish has been employed ever since the first Gibson guitar was swathed with lacquer back in 1894." Gibson.com Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentar Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Thanks Bence. I think I see why I have no Gibby acoustics. I'm stunned Gibson puts a nitro finish on an acoustic. I have a nitro Les Paul with a nitro finish that a bullet couldn't knick but I can't even imagine that thick nitro coating on an acoustic. That defeats how a acoustic operates. Oh well, truth is stranger than fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Thanks Bence. I think I see why I have no Gibby acoustics. I'm stunned Gibson puts a nitro finish on an acoustic. I have a nitro Les Paul with a nitro finish that a bullet couldn't knick but I can't even imagine that thick nitro coating on an acoustic. That defeats how a acoustic operates. Oh well, truth is stranger than fiction. Like bracings, any finish will affect the resonance behaviour of wood. Practically any material besides nitro has more sturdiness and rigidity which add to the effects of mass inertia. Different finish materials basically react different, not necessarily better or worse. It's the sum which counts, i. e. timbers, bracings, glues and finish. Then it will come to taste in the end. Beauty is in the ears of the listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Hello Zentar! In fact, solvent-based lacquers containing nitro-cellulose are best suited among all kinds of paints, for applications where the wood plays major role in forming the characteristic sound of an instrument, like an acoustic guitar. Opposed to polyurethane coatings (modern automotive finish), lacquers containing "nitro" have a porous structure, letting the wood resonate and breath. Polyurethane, and shellac (not to mention acrylic finishes which are not musical instrument-grade coatings anyways) completely isolate the wood from the environment. However, I prefer beeswax, or oil finishes on musical instruments too, wherever the wood has any impact on tone. But that's my personal preference, while understanding that an instrument with such a finish will never look as nice as a buffed, wet-looking nitro finished one. The other advantage nitrocelluse finish has, is that they are very easy to repair. Any new layer applied, will slightly solve the previous layer, and - while curing - they melt into each other. Thank God it does, because the bad thing about it is the sensitivity to climatic changes. When exposed to sudden temperature changes, it might crack. "Poly" finish withstands higher mechanical impact, however if it gets damaged it's hard to repair. "Nitro" is easy to apply too. It's much more forgiving from workability point of view. It won't run that easily. It dries quickly, making the surface ready for the next layer quite quickly. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentar Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Acoustic Guitar Finishes This article explains how Taylor acoustics got away from nitro finishes. I'm a big Taylor guy. I have 6 of them. Taylor has the thinnest finish of any maker of acoustics which I believe accounts for their great tonal qualities. I could have bought Martin or anybody else the last two purchases I made but no brand was equal the the Taylors. I have one guitar with no finish at all on it. (Yamaha) You don't want a thick surface on on acoustic. Some people claim the finish on an acoustic vibrates just like the wood moves but that is marketing not physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 ... lacquers containing "nitro" have a porous structure, letting the wood resonate and breath. Polyurethane, and shellac (not to mention acrylic finishes which are not musical instrument-grade coatings anyways) completely isolate the wood from the environment. ... The breathe thing is debatable. Cars made of steel and finished with nitro would have rusted very fast if there was remarkable breathing. Like steel, wood also has to be protected. Otherwise it would be eaten up by oxygen with time. Shellac, nitrocellulose, acrylic, polyester and polyurethane all have their ups and downs. Except for shellac I have them all on guitars and basses and never had to deal with downsides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 ... Some people claim the finish on an acoustic vibrates just like the wood moves but that is marketing not physics. It's physics. I don't know of any guitar that quickly shook its finish off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobF_ Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Unfortuantely, I'm so broke that I can only afford the Epi (from orig post) lay-a-way down payment. They also got this red Regal LP copy that looks pretty rad, and it's under two hundo. Not sure why the model's dubbed "LP Copy" tho, cuz it doesn't really have much of a resemblance. If the body wasn't made of Pinewood it be way more of an attractive buy.. I had a Fender MP Tele + for a while. Made of pine. GREAT guitar!! If it had taller frets I'd still have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 The breathe thing is debatable. Cars made of steel and finished with nitro would have rusted very fast if there was remarkable breathing. Like steel, wood also has to be protected. Otherwise it would be eaten up by oxygen with time. Shellac, nitrocellulose, acrylic, polyester and polyurethane all have their ups and downs. Except for shellac I have them all on guitars and basses and never had to deal with downsides. Hello Capmaster! As far as automotive finishes are concerned, it's hard to tell. In those decades when "nitro" was used on cars, also the sheet metal was much thicker than today. Also, it depends on number of layers, - especially the primers - used for those applications. Cars of different brands still, - up to our time - vary from rust-resistance/finish durability aspects. Even though, "poly" is most commonly used. But again, it comes down to what is under that layer which is highly exposed to mechanical impacts and natural conditions. When it comes to electric guitars, I have no issues with any of the finishes used these days. It doesn't matters once it is plugged in, especially with all the pedals in chain. Acoustics are different thing, though. From them I'd definitely choose a nitro-finished one, if it really needs to have any kind of coating on it. Best wishes... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 It's a recent rebuilt I have done for a friend. Mediocre construction, but made of quite good materials. It got sanded perfectly smooth, then wet-polished to matte and sealed with beeswax: Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Looks nice! How does she sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Looks nice! How does she sound? Thanks! :) Loud, and - surprisingly - nice, but... ...string tension is very high, also the action. It's neck was horribly thick: I had to remove 3-4 mms and recontour it to asymmetric to make it playable somehow. Well, it was made in the Socialist Bulgaria. Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Seems you are a guitar recycler When about string tension: How much is her scale length? Do neck and truss rod still keep up with the strings after your neck shaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Seems you are a guitar recycler When about string tension: How much is her scale length? Do neck and truss rod still keep up with the strings after your neck shaving? Scale length is Fender's: 25.5". Straight headstock too... Neck is straight like an arrow, didn't had to adjust it - not even a bit! The neck is still thick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Still thick... This reminds me of myself. No matter if I'm bearded or shaved, my overweight stays practically unaffected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Still thick... This reminds me of myself. No matter if I'm bearded or shaved, my overweight stays practically unaffected... Well... Shaving on daily basis can be understood as sport activity, which ought to cure the overweight. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Well... Shaving on daily basis can be understood as sport activity, which ought to cure the overweight. Cheers... Bence My sensitive skin keeps me from doing sport ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentar Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 "Breathe" is used as a euphemism. It doesn't refer to air coming in and out or oxidaation. It means the guitar top and bottom rises and falls with each vibration like your chest does while you are breathing. The weight of the paint acts as a dampener. Even the thinnest, lightest finish done by Taylor at 3 mils has a dampening effect on wood vibration. This is physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Not necessarily dampening. The main effect is decrease of the resonance frequencies due to mass inertia. To fast oscillations like string vibrations next to all timbers and finishes are rather stiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentar Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Yes dampening. A finish on the wood does the same thing dirt and oil does to the string vibration. Dirty strings muffle/dampen frequency. It is physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Yes dampening. A finish on the wood does the same thing dirt and oil does to the string vibration. Dirty strings muffle/dampen frequency. It is physics. Compared to finish properties, corrosion, dirt and oil aren't stiff and rigid enough. Moreover, their distribution including mass inertia is inconsistent which additionally fouls up string resonance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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