ID'ing an antique archtop

[td160]

 

Link to more pictures of the example:

picture link

 

I have been looking a bit closer at this family heirloom.

I found a website that appears useful for id'ing guitars.

Link: My link

 

According to the site, I think I have in the top photo a very early Gibson arch top.

clues:

The Identification label in the body is a 'white label' which, according to the site, was used from 1908 to 1932

 

The white label has its 3 blanks filled in in hand writing and in pencil. That is consistent for the label.

 

The FON (Factory Order Number) is 4 digit no hyphen and located on the neck block within the body. That number is 3585 and in ink.

According to the reference and a chart of order numbers it was mfr'd between 1905 - 1906.

 

Dimensions: The width across the body is 13.5inches. That coincides with L series made within the above noted era.

 

Sound hole is round. No 'f' holes. 2-ply sound hole rings. This is also consistent with the time period.

Pearl Inlay says 'The Gibson'. That's consistent with an early example. Later models just used the name 'Gibson'. No 'The'.

 

No pick guard.

 

What I don't get is the 'Lg' style designation on the white ID label. This thing looks more consistent with an L1 as shown on the referenced website.

 

I can't get past the Factory Order Number. That dates it.

 

So, if I've read the tea leaves right, this guitar is over 100 yrs old....and in remarkable shape considering. I'm no player but to my unpracticed ear, tone is quite nice on this one.

 

So, my question to the forum is; is there anyone among you who can add or edit my assumptions based on the reference I provide?

 

tia,

-Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ON

[Jon S.]

We are unable to view the link. Email the pictures to us at service@gibson.com and we'll be happy to help.

[td160]

We are unable to view the link. Email the pictures to us at service@gibson.com and we'll be happy to help.

 

Thanks for the help!

email sent earlier.

 

For those who might want to follow this thread I can post some more photos here in this post:

Above photo: back side. This one has dark stain on a wood specie I have yet to identify. Body sides have the same wood and stain.

 

Above: repeat showing of the front side. Ebony fret board with pearl inlay dots between the fret bars.

 

Above photo: inside the sound box. The aforementioned 'white label' with blanks filled out in pencil, hand written.

 

Above photo: Pearl inlay that says "The Gibson". Based on info I found at the reference site I linked to in the op, later product dropped the "The" and just went with "Gibson" on this part of the instrument.

 

Above photo: looking into the sound box at the construction.

 

Above photo: How the strings get anchored. Via pins (ebony, I think) into whatever that material is that holds them.

The metal work in the foreground indicates it has seen some use. Never any evidence of rust. Might be stainless steel.

 

Above image: in its hard case. As far as I know, this is the original case. The leather handle hold wore out. I fashioned the handle in the photo out of hemp twine. It seems to be holding up.

 

Above photo: opening the case to find the Gibson.

 

Above photo: looking into the empty case.

 

other info and notes:

Factory Order Number is located within the body on the end of the neck block. Ink stamped. It says: 3585

Identification is found in a "White label" with blanks filled in by hand in pencil. And the pencil lettering is light in color.

It says: Gibson: Guitar ------Style: Lg

Number: 38259

 

History: purchased circa mid 1930's from individual. (not a store) According to my Dad, who owned it since that purchase, it was in the condition then that we see now in the photos, except for the replacement of the original worn-out tuners. The new replacements were made by Harmony and carried out by an instrument repair technician circa 1969.

 

Above: replacement tuners. Brand: Harmony

 

Sound box is 13-1/2" across with round hole. 2-ply ring decoration around it.

 

Info Link I found on the web:

Info Link: Guitar HQ

 

thanks for looking.

-Steve

[JimR56]

Hi Steve,

 

Wonderful heirloom you have there. I'm not an expert on Gibsons of this kind of age, but the numbers you've provided suggest to me a date of 1916 (FON) / 1917 (serial).

 

I would have thought that this was an L-1, but the writing on the label puzzles me. The "g" could in fact be a slanted "2" (?), but from what I understand, the L-2 was not in production at that time (1902-1908; 1924-1926), and those had a bound back as of 1924.

 

That's about all I've got at the moment. Hopefully someone else will chime in...

[td160]

Hi Steve,

 

Wonderful heirloom you have there. I'm not an expert on Gibsons of this kind of age, but the numbers you've provided suggest to me a date of 1916 (FON) / 1917 (serial).

 

I would have thought that this was an L-1, but the writing on the label puzzles me. The "g" could in fact be a slanted "2" (?), but from what I understand, the L-2 was not in production at that time (1902-1908; 1924-1926), and those had a bound back as of 1924.

 

That's about all I've got at the moment. Hopefully someone else will chime in...

 

Thanks for that reply. It has helped me to solve one more issue; the style designation.

Here's an enhanced shot of the white ID label. I used the 'replace color' function within photoshop to increase the contrast between the pencil writing and the background.

What anchors it for me is to look at the slanted '2' in the style blank and compare it to the number 2 in the serial number. Both have some hand writing similarities. Suggesting if one is a number 2, so is the other.

 

Then that makes this an L-2......I think.

 

Here's another detail photo I just added today:

A photo of the ink stamp on the neck block within the hollow body. Just to validate the FON as 3585

 

Now another clue which may or may not validate the other conclusions we've made so far:

At the base of the trapeze is the patent date: July 19, 1910.

If this piece is original to the guitar, then it must have been made after the patent date...!

 

The photo also indicates the material used; chrome plate over brass.

 

Here's a close-up detail of the sound hole and its ring decorations:

 

Two-ply rings.

 

Also note some scratching just to the right of the strings consistent with having been played and no pick guard.

No pick guard is consistent with the L-2 style.

 

I still think there are contradictions between the style designation and the FON and serial numbers. Unless there were some L-2 styles produced during the years the reference site suggest they weren't. Perhaps the Gibson factory produced product that doesn't always match to the reference site. Perhaps some products had features that over-lapped with other style types and went undocumented.

 

At the linked reference site there is a list of factory order numbers and the dates used. That list suggests 1902 to 1916 for order numbers up to 3650. My number is 3585. This suggests a date near the top of the range. I had thought I'd found another list of order numbers which dated the fon differently. But now I can't find it. Anyway the serial number, as you suggest indicates 1916 - 1917. Title of list: Non hyphen serial numbers.

 

 

More to come. I'm determined to positively ID this instrument.;

Hopefully some of the folks at Gibson can come up with something. It must be near impossible to find records dating back more than 100 years. With all the years that have passed, there must have been many changes and perhaps some events to have some effects in their records library. That would be common with any company with a long history.

 

-Steve

[JimR56]

Thanks for that reply. It has helped me to solve one more issue; the style designation.

Here's an enhanced shot of the white ID label. I used the 'replace color' function within photoshop to increase the contrast between the pencil writing and the background.

What anchors it for me is to look at the slanted '2' in the style blank and compare it to the number 2 in the serial number. Both have some hand writing similarities. Suggesting if one is a number 2, so is the other.

 

Then that makes this an L-2......I think.

 

Here's another detail photo I just added today:

A photo of the ink stamp on the neck block within the hollow body. Just to validate the FON as 3585

 

Now another clue which may or may not validate the other conclusions we've made so far:

At the base of the trapeze is the patent date: July 19, 1910.

If this piece is original to the guitar, then it must have been made after the patent date...!

 

The photo also indicates the material used; chrome plate over brass.

 

Here's a close-up detail of the sound hole and its ring decorations:

 

Two-ply rings.

 

Also note some scratching just to the right of the strings consistent with having been played and no pick guard.

No pick guard is consistent with the L-2 style.

 

I still think there are contradictions between the style designation and the FON and serial numbers. Unless there were some L-2 styles produced during the years the reference site suggest they weren't. Perhaps the Gibson factory produced product that doesn't always match to the reference site. Perhaps some products had features that over-lapped with other style types and went undocumented.

 

At the linked reference site there is a list of factory order numbers and the dates used. That list suggests 1902 to 1916 for order numbers up to 3650. My number is 3585. This suggests a date near the top of the range. I had thought I'd found another list of order numbers which dated the fon differently. But now I can't find it. Anyway the serial number, as you suggest indicates 1916 - 1917. Title of list: Non hyphen serial numbers.

 

 

More to come. I'm determined to positively ID this instrument.;

Hopefully some of the folks at Gibson can come up with something. It must be near impossible to find records dating back more than 100 years. With all the years that have passed, there must have been many changes and perhaps some events to have some effects in their records library. That would be common with any company with a long history.

 

-Steve

You pose some very good and interesting questions, which really deserve some attention. I've been participating on this forum for a number of years, and it's never been so slow and so quiet. I suppose we should keep in mind that we're talking not only about an instrument that's approaching 100 years of age, but a model that is fairly uncommon and obscure. I've been searching (both in my own library as well as on the web) for information about the L-2 model, and it's been difficult to find many details. In fact, the archtop versions of the L-1 and L-2 appear to be almost forgotten. People seem to only associate those model names with the flat-top incarnations that came later.

 

I've been using the reference site which you linked for many years. It's an excellent resource, and although I've seen errors of both commission and omission, the FON/serial number information is generally pretty reliable. In this case, your FON and serial numbers "line up". I'm confident that your guitar began life in 1916, and was completed in 1917. Your tailpiece would have been a well-established item in Gibson's stock of parts by that time.

 

From what I've seen in my 35+ years as a vintage Gibson enthusiast, it isn't a great shock to see a situation like yours where an instrument appears to date from outside the normal range of documented production years. A bit surprising, yes. It would be interesting to know just how rare an exception your guitar may be in this regard. At any rate, surprises and exceptions like this are seen from time to time, and the overlapping that you refer to was almost inevitable with models as similar as the L-1 and L-2.

[stein]

Before one says L-1 or L-2, don't we really want to know what, if any differences between the two are?

 

I actually don't....not really an expert on these either.

 

It seems possible the weird "2", or whatever it is, is an attempt at a correction.

 

I love these kinda post. STILL lots to learn...before we forget (again).

 

THIS guitar looks, somehow, like it WANTS to be played. Very nice shape, and nice looking guitar.

[td160]

Before one says L-1 or L-2, don't we really want to know what, if any differences between the two are?

 

 

It seems possible the weird "2", or whatever it is, is an attempt at a correction.

 

THIS guitar looks, somehow, like it WANTS to be played. Very nice shape, and nice looking guitar.

 

I had been able to find that the 2-ply rings about the sound hole were consistent with an L-1 in the reference site. and L-2 were sited has having 3-ply rings. So....is it an L-1? Well the 'corrected 2', if it is that, might be pointing in that direction. And pure speculation on my part. I do agree that the wierd 2 could be a correction. If so, a correction from what? and I would speculate/guess that if it were an L-1 with a slanted 1, then it just might be. But do L-1 archtops show up in the books for 1917 product sales?

 

If it is a corrected 2, who did that. I'd deduce that it would be very hard to make any marks on that white label while it was in the sound box. More likely it was penciled before the label was applied to wood. and if so, someone at Gibson Kalamazoo did the lettering. Factory.

 

Kinda fun to play with this history.

 

I too get the impression that this guitar really, really wants to make music. It fairly sings to me as I handle it. All in beautiful warm tones. But, alas, I don't play this instrument.

-Steve

[L5Larry]

There is little doubt in my mind, all the information given points directly to a 1917 L-1.

 

In my records, BOTH the FON and SN list as from 1917.

 

Here's the evidence of an L-1:

1. "The Gibson" written on an angle with no other headstock ornamentation.

2. Bound fingerboard, with the neck joining the body at the 13th fret.

3. 19 frets.

4. Trapeze tailpiece with pins, and "slim" floating bridge.

5. Double concentric rosette inlays.

 

Original selling price - $62.05

 

The early L-2 is said to have had three rosette rings (1903), and "pearl" headstock "ornamentation". Published sources also say it "disappeared" from the Gibson price list until 1924. So, there was no production model L-2 in 1917.

 

A 1917 L-1 would have also had an early design floating pickguard, notable by TWO brackets. Their mounting holes would be evident by screw holes in the "knee rest" area (which is NOT shown in any furnished photos).

 

If you would like to argue/discuss the prodigy of this guitar based on what was hand written on a paper label by a factory employee during the height of WWI, be my guest.

 

Oh, one other thing.... as the "2" looks to be scribbled and superimposed over something else, if you put a blacklight on it you may see what is underneath.

[td160]

There is little doubt in my mind, all the information given points directly to a 1917 L-1.

 

In my records, BOTH the FON and SN list as from 1917.

 

Here's the evidence of an L-1:

1. "The Gibson" written on an angle with no other headstock ornamentation.

2. Bound fingerboard, with the neck joining the body at the 13th fret.

3. 19 frets.

4. Trapeze tailpiece with pins, and "slim" floating bridge.

5. Double concentric rosette inlays.

 

Original selling price - $62.05

 

The early L-2 is said to have had three rosette rings (1903), and "pearl" headstock "ornamentation". Published sources also say it "disappeared" from the Gibson price list until 1924. So, there was no production model L-2 in 1917.

 

A 1917 L-1 would have also had an early design floating pickguard, notable by TWO brackets. Their mounting holes would be evident by screw holes in the "knee rest" area (which is NOT shown in any furnished photos).

 

If you would like to argue/discuss the prodigy of this guitar based on what was hand written on a paper label by a factory employee during the height of WWI, be my guest.

 

Oh, one other thing.... as the "2" looks to be scribbled and superimposed over something else, if you put a blacklight on it you may see what is underneath.

 

thanks Larry for your research. It really helps. Below I have some photos which I think will corroborate your findings.

 

In the above photo a distinct marking on the spruce top near the knee rest side outlines where a clamp once was. Presumably one of the two clamps used to attach the pick guard.

 

Here's another shot from the back side:

 

Above photo: Here we can see two distinct clamp marks.

 

I can find no evidence of a small screw hole anywhere in the knee rest zone. Perhaps someone else can.

 

Here's a macro detail of the sound hole inlays:

 

My eyes must be going south. Only in this macro shot, and up on the computer screen can I see that the inlay is composed of two separate wood types. And this makes me marvel at the apparent expertise it must take to create one. And...this is an archtop. The inlay must have been made before the curvature was installed into the spruce. (conjecture)

I'd gather that inlays like this will tend to add to the cost of the product.

 

Jon, with Gibson customer service sent an email with an image from a catalog page.

He also suggests an L-1 circa 1917.

 

I have the catalog page on my website and, for the benefit of the readers of this thread, I post it here just below.

If you would like to argue/discuss the prodigy of this guitar based on what was hand written on a paper label by a factory employee during the height of WWI, be my guest.

 

Oh, one other thing.... as the "2" looks to be scribbled and superimposed over something else, if you put a blacklight on it you may see what is underneath.

 

I'm satisfied that I do indeed have an L1 from 1917. As to the hand writing on the white ID label, it really does look like someone has put further pencil markings over the original. One can only guess at what prompted that. Don't have a black light. Wish I did. If you would like to offer further input regarding the providence of this guitar, relative to the white label or any other detail, I'd appreciate anything you might add.

 

-Steve

ps: link to my Gibson page:

Gibson L1