zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I was just looking at some photos and stumbled across this one. A 1956 SJ and 1960 J-200. Gadzooks, look where those folks in Kalamazoo placed the pickguards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 That large pick guard on the '56 SJ is snuggled right up against the fretboard and the radius cut was what it was I suppose. Here's my '57 J-50 with that same style guard . Maybe it took then a year to figure out? GHillian Welch's '56 has the same guard, without crowding the sound hole. Wonder if there was a difference in the actual sound hole dimension between that SJ and the J-45/50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 I always wondered if these two guitars were some of those its Friday afternoon and I cannot wait to get out of here instruments. But maybe it just came down to who was slapping it on with some favoring a different placement over others. It is kind of hard to believe though it was not standardized with at least the J-200. While these guitars had always only been built in small numbers, in 1960 the J-200 and the other high dollar guitars like the Super 400 were built separately under their own foreman. My repair guy was amazed when he got a chance to look inside the J-200 at just how carefully that guitar was built with the tone bars being hand-tuned to work with the top of each individual instrument. On the other hand, he was also amazed that considering how wide the angle of the X brace is that the guitar did not have a belly that a late in life Orson Welles would have been envious of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 It's not simply where someone decided to glue it on, there is mathematics and geometry at work here. In all cases shown in this thread, the pickguard is located such that the arc of the cutout is "concentric" to the soundhole. As the rosettes are also concentric to the soundhole, it becomes a series of concentric circles. Therefore, ANY pickguard can ONLY be put in ONE specific place, determined by the radius of the cutout. If you think these placements are incorrect, it's the pickguard which is cut wrong, not placed wrong. Here's an interactive page for "fun with concentric circles": http://www.mathopenref.com/concentric.html A pickguard that is glued on such that the arc of the cutout is NOT concentric with the soundhole would be placed WRONG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 Whoa! I just posted this for fun. I am not quite ready to break out a lab coat and compass. And if my report cards, as I recall them, are any indication, I have always sucked at math anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 It's not simply where someone decided to glue it on, there is mathematics and geometry at work here. In all cases shown in this thread, the pickguard is located such that the arc of the cutout is "concentric" to the soundhole. As the rosettes are also concentric to the soundhole, it becomes a series of concentric circles. Therefore, ANY pickguard can ONLY be put in ONE specific place, determined by the radius of the cutout. If you think these placements are incorrect, it's the pickguard which is cut wrong, not placed wrong. Here's an interactive page for "fun with concentric circles": http://www.mathopenref.com/concentric.html A pickguard that is glued on such that the arc of the cutout is NOT concentric with the soundhole would be placed WRONG! I think this line of thought is correct. the difference between some of the 1956 batwing guards and the 1957, which leaves the rosette exposed is likely duke to the pick guard changing shape . I wonder if anyone has ever collected data on the RELATIVE SIZE / Radius of the sound hole over those years. / size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Whoa! I just posted this for fun. I am not quite ready to break out a lab coat and compass. And if my report cards, as I recall them, are any indication, I have always sucked at math anyway. Good job, Zomby!........lol.........Actually, I guess it's been a while since we covered this. Might be time to revisit. I don't know if I've ever closely examined the placement of the pick guards on any of my guitars. If the guard is obviously crooked, I'll notice it, but beyond that I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 Good job, Zomby!........lol.........Actually, I guess it's been a while since we covered this. Might be time to revisit. I don't know if I've ever closely examined the placement of the pick guards on any of my guitars. If the guard is obviously crooked, I'll notice it, but beyond that I don't. In all the years I owned those guitars I never even thought once about it. Nobody I know ever mentioned it either which I guess means they did not think about it. Maybe not noticing such stuff it is just a geezer thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 . If I recall correctly, the pickguard discussions were centered on the J-45 - a pickguard that doesn't apply against the fretboard, and is therefore a matter of positioning. At that time I posted a pic of a J-45TV and photoshoped the pickguard further to the treble side to expose the inner rosette ring (no resize, no change in arc - see below). And, as of late it seems the slope pickguards are usually found outside the inside ring of the rosette, the exceptions being the 45 Standard, the Hiatt and Yoakam sigs. My preference is to have the guard positioned outside the inner rosette ring . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 . If I recall correctly, the pickguard discussions were centered on the J-45 - a pickguard that doesn't apply against the fretboard, and is therefore a matter of positioning. At that time I posted a pic of a J-45TV and photoshoped the pickguard further to the treble side to expose the inner rosette ring (no resize, no change in arc - see below). And, as of late it seems the slope pickguards are usually found outside the inside ring of the rosette, the exceptions being the 45 Standard, the Hiatt and Yoakam sigs. My preference is to have the guard positioned outside the inner rosette ring . My J45 Standard has the pickguard outside of the rosette and it'll soon be a year old so they've been doing it right on some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 My Hummingbird Vintage has the pickguard right up against the soundhole. The Hummingbird Standard I A/B'd it with, if I recall, had it up against the rosette, not the soundhole. I figured that was just how they did Hummingbirds in the 1960s. But I guess it all has to do with how the pickguard is cut--as was said, for any given pickguard and any given guitar, there is only one place you can actually put it. Otherwise it wouldn't line up at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 My Hummingbird Vintage has the pickguard right up against the soundhole. The Hummingbird Standard I A/B'd it with, if I recall, had it up against the rosette, not the soundhole. I figured that was just how they did Hummingbirds in the 1960s. The True Vintage guitars really do not have all that much in common with the originals they are based on. They are more an inspired by instrument rather than an attempt at an accurate recreation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 50s on left, '01 on right. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Does it really makes a difference (sound / projection wise)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 . Probably not. Previous discussions were about vintage placement, aesthetic and practical considerations. In Fred's pics of the J-185s, on the 50s example you can see some pick wear on the sound hole edge nearer the bridge by the first sting - placing the pickguard on the sound hole edge would prevent that. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Does it really makes a difference (sound / projection wise)? Nope. It is just about aesthetics and protection. Again, there are two fantastic guitars in the photos and if there was a point it was to beg the question isn't all of this pickguard todo really kind of silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Nope. It is just about aesthetics and protection. Again, there are two fantastic guitars in the photos and if there was a point it was to beg the question isn't all of this pickguard todo really kind of silly. Says the guy who starts a thread about pickguard placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The True Vintage guitars really do not have all that much in common with the originals they are based on. They are more an inspired by instrument rather than an attempt at an accurate recreation Right, especially the bracing, but it seems like some of the "inspired-by" details are pretty period-correct, like the tuners. I can't imagine a 1960s Hummingbird would actually look like this after 50 years, though, even if they didn't have the issue where the dye faded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 On some guitars the rosette is too big. J45s have it about right. One small rosette ring. The pickguard has to fit in relation to the circumference of the rosette. There needs to be an equal space between the arc of the pickguard and the arc of the rosette/soundhole. If the guard is wrongly placed the two arcs are unequal. You cannot move the pickguard closer or further away from the soundhole and expect into look OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 MickM, Exactly. This 'pickguard placement errors' issue is wrong headed. It could simply be resolved with a poll/survey "How much of the rosette do you want protected by the pickguard: All; Some; None." I think we could all agree some guitars really look better with larger, more ornate rosettes. And that Gibson is smart enough to have figured out the 10th grade geometry concept of concentric circles. After all, they nailed the concept of 'parallel lines never meet' when they figured out how to place fretwires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 While I'm in the camp that likes al my hole to be seen , rosette and all , there are folk who want the protection offered by the guard being right up against the edge. There will be less of their opinions voiced in here because they're likely to be people who actually play their guitar as opposed to us in here who sit and look at them more than is healthy. Gibson can't win in this situation. Put the guard in the case and let us stick em on where we see fit might be an option. But then they would look naked on a shop hanger . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I would vote for small rosettes and teardrops. Big wide rosettes are for classical guitars, showjumpers and politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 there are folk who want the protection offered by the guard being right up against the edge. That's a good point. I don't play in a fashion that causes that kind of wear, but the previous owner(s) of my 1965 J-50 sure did. The dark area here is really worn down, and it looks like someone did a pretty bad job of trying to fix it a long time ago. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 BTW, just noticed that my 65 J-50 has another rosette ring not present on Dan's 57 J-50 (picture on previous page). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 BTW, just noticed that my 65 J-50 has another rosette ring not present on Dan's 57 J-50 (picture on previous page). That outter ring shows up around 1963. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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