mountainpicker Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I was over on the AGF and was looking at a picture of Jorma's '58 or '59 J-50 and a question came to mind for those in the know here. I believe that it was in Fabulous Flat-top Guitars that I read that the five dollar upcharge originally charged to have a J-50 with a clear finish (over the sunburst J-45) was because the J-50 soundboard/top was a more cosmetically perfect chunk of wood. So just how clear of bearclaw and other grain "imperfections" were allowed before a top was relegated to J-45 builds? Or was it more about the initial tap tone/sound of the top? This would also apply to LG-2's vs LG-3 models. The reason I ask is that Jorma's appears to have some waviness in the grain above the soundhole that isn't from play wear. Also, eventually the price difference between the two models disappeared and it just became about whether one wanted a 'burst or a natural finish. When did that start to be the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 Here's the article and the picture that sparked the inquiry: http://www.guitaraficionado.com/smoking-j-jorma-kaukonen-embryonic-journey-gibson-j-50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 As far as I have been able to determine Gibson only tap tested the top wood for the high end guitars like the J-200 and then hand carved the bracing for each individual guitar. So the price difference could have reflected an upcharge for better looking wood with straighter more even grain for the natural top models. Or maybe that is just what Gibson wanted you to think. If you pay a bit more there has to be something better about the guitar, right? The 1960 catalog shows a difference of $10 to $15 more for the natural top versions of the J-200 and SJ and the J-50 over the bursts. The 1967 catalog still shows the J-200N with a heftier price tag than the burst J-200 but the J-45 and J-50 being available at the same price tag as are the SJ and C&W and the Hummingbird burst and natural top. If I had to guess I would say the change took place around 1965 when Maurice Berlin stepped down as president of CMI. Lots of changes at Gibson (with few being for the better) after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Very interesting, was never aware of that. Here's my 1965 J-50, you can see a knot in the lower part on the left and right. I assume these are separate pieces of wood that were chosen to make a more or less symmetrical pattern. I think it's kind of cool, like two eyes. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMELEYE Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I wonder if the surge in popularity of folk music in the late '50s to early '60s had something to do with Gibson's promotion of the J-50 and its slight up charge. Most folkies of the day seem to have preferred natural topped guitars perhaps due to the influence of the Kingston Trio whose every album cover showed the natural tops of Bob Shane's D-28 and Nick Reynolds Martin tenor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Very interesting, was never aware of that. Here's my 1965 J-50, you can see a knot in the lower part on the left and right. I assume these are separate pieces of wood that were chosen to make a more or less symmetrical pattern. I think it's kind of cool, like two eyes. :) Boyd- To these eyes, your guitar's top just looks like a regular bookmatched set; if you put a left and a right index finger on the photo, at least 4 or 5 matching areas, with either darker wood or grain similarities, can be seen when counting out from the center seam. Nicely aged, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yggdrasil Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I posted that link over there - it lead to someone actually commenting: "I knew it! Thought it sounded like a hog j45, but you can hear the clarity of the non-sunburst. " Hopefully tongue in cheek! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I wonder if the surge in popularity of folk music in the late '50s to early '60s had something to do with Gibson's promotion of the J-50 and its slight up charge. Most folkies of the day seem to have preferred natural topped guitars perhaps due to the influence of the Kingston Trio whose every album cover showed the natural tops of Bob Shane's D-28 and Nick Reynolds Martin tenor. Possibly as Martins and the Folk Music Revival did seem to go hand in hand. And it can't be argued that by the middle of the 1960s Gibson was, for the first time, sending out more J-50s than J-45s. But the biggest impact can be seen in the number of guitars being built. By mid-decade Gibson was turning out more than double the number of J-45s and J-50s they had in 1960 while the introduction of 12 string models and the F-25 were certainly an attempt to cash in on the Folk Music Revival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I got my first J-50 in 1974. I always associated the natural top with folk music and thought of the burst as a "cowboy guitar". LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Gorgeous J-50 Boyd! What are the nut widths of your guitars listed in your signature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Thanks Smurf. :) I hate these measurment discussions because I'm never sure of exactly where to measure, the nut seems a bit tapered on the old guitars. I just measured these at the bottom of the nut with the most accurate little stainless steel ruler that I have, it goes down to 1/32" increments. As near as I can tell 1965 J-50 = 1 21/32" (1.656") 1974 J-50 = 1 21/32" (1.656") 2008 J-50 = 1 23/32" (1.719") The spec for the 2008 J-50 call for a 1.725" nut, so that is within 1/100 of an inch which is about as close as my old eyes get. But there is something very different about the neck profile on the 2008 J-50, and I think it's pretty much the same as other contemporary Gibsons. It feels much fatter than the two older guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Close enough for me. Considering all the talk of torrified tops and getting that aged sound, I think it's best to find these older guitars. Well, especially for me because those narrower nuts are also what I'm looking for. Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Well you should also end up with a fatter wallet with that approach. I see the J-45 True Vintage listed at $3500 at SweetWater. Wow. I could have also bought a new J-15 along with my 1965 J-50 at that price! [edited to add]Gibson did a 1967 J-45 re-issue as a limited run, as shown in the video in this thread. It (apparently) has the skinny neck, thick pickguard and adjustable bridge. Kind of cool but I don't see anyone actually selling them and I'd be afraid to ask the price. ;) http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/124040-j-45-vintage-hbird-vintage-60s-j-45-review/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 According to one dealer I chatted with…..the sunburst DOES cover a lot of cosmetic flaws in the wood. I had an AJ Natural antique top guitar and the top wood was flawless….tight grained Sitka. VERY tight grain……just beautiful…..would have been a shame to burst that top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 At the end of the day though straight as opposed to wavy grain is all about aesthetics. It has nothing to do with sound. I would say though my '42 J-50 is King of the Hill when it comes to resorting to a burst to cover flaws. If you recall this is the guitar on which that somebody accidentally flip flopped one of the book matched top halves. Somewhere down the line somebody caught it and decided to shoot a burst on the guitar to try and cover up the screw up. So in the end it is either a very unique J-50 or one of the first or maybe the first J-45 (as the J-50s were shipped before the J-45s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 WOW. Boyd, your J-50 is a real looker. That is the kind of guitar I have in my head that makes me love the batwing pickguards. I associate the batwing with guitars like that (okay, and with my dad's 1970s Gibson that I'm still not sure what was). Anyway, it is two pieces of wood, but they are two pieces of the same wood. That's the standard for guitar tops, though, to find a nice, appropriate piece, then slice it in two like bread, and bookmatch it so they mirror each other. I love knots and stuff like that, personally... Looks so cool on yours! I always thought the reason they charged more for the J-50 was because it was not just better-looking spruce but because it was two pieces. When spruce ran short, it was not unusual for them to make J-45 tops of more than two pieces, more like five pieces at times, and then hide that with a sunburst. However, that was wartime, not the 1960s... so that does not really explain why natural would have cost more... Other than that the natural would assumedly have gotten the nice spruce. (To me, though, spruce with neat features like a knot... is the nice spruce... I know knots aren't always the best for tone and structure, though, or so it's said...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Zombywoof-I've always dug your J-50/45 or whatever model it is considered to be. But, now I'm confused by your statement that "(as the J-50's were shipped before the J-45's)". According to these guys (not that anyone on the net has a corner on veracity): http://www.guitarhq.com/gibson6.html J-45's were made from 1942 to the present and J-50's were made from 1947 to the present. But I guess I'm most curious as to where the line got drawn on top selection that determioned when a top was relegated to being a J-50 or a J-45. Someone was responsible for making the call as to what was given a burst and what was left natural. Or was it just a numbers thing with so many J-50's per J-45's cranked out, due to sales demand. Maybe some pics of old J-50's (hint, hint) would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 J-45's were made from 1942 to the present and J-50's were made from 1947 to the present. I don't think you can say the J-50 was made "to the present". AFAIK, it has not been offered since 2011. Have been wondering when/if they will bring it back myself. This site has a little different timeline for the J-45 vs J-50. I have no idea who is right,. :) http://vintage-guitars.blogspot.com/2005/10/gibson-j-guitars.html When The gibson j-35 jumbo discontinued in late 1942 , it was replaced by the gibson j45 The j-45 was introduced in 1942 in sunburst finish , in 1945 gibson made the same version of the j-45 but in nautural finish and called them the gibson j-50 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 So the price difference could have reflected an upcharge for better looking wood with straighter more even grain for the natural top models. Or maybe that is just what Gibson wanted you to think. If you pay a bit more there has to be something better about the guitar, right? Well this is interesting. ThemisSal posted that Sweetwater is selling the J-50 Modern Classic again. These are like my 2008 J-50 and AFAIK, it has not been seen since 2011 so I wonder where they came from? They aren't shown on Gibson's site and I don't see them at other vendors. Could they be leftover inventory that Sweetwater acquired from someone? Gibson seems to be continuing the tradition of charging more for the J-50, in a big way too. $600 more (27%) than the J-45 Standard. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS50ANNH http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS4SVSNH Kind of hard to compare based on the published specs. The J-50 has a "Premium Sitka Spruce" top and the J-45 is "AA-grade Sitka Spruce". J-50 has a "Transducer Pickup" and the J-45 has a "LR Baggs Element". Maybe they are just charging more for the J-50 because they are scarce? Or maybe its just the reason zomby suggested above. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Maybe we should e-mail Sweetwater and ask? I am all curious now. (Not curious enough to be the one to ask though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Well I've already got mine, and I only paid about half that much. So I support the price increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike m Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hey all, I bought this 1970 J-50 new in 1973. They also had a new 1970 J-45. They were Diamond Jubilee Models for Gibson's 75th anniversary. I liked the J-50 more than the J-45. The J-45 was very red sunburst, I liked the plain top better. That J-45 probably faded and darkened over the years, maybe not so red now. Thanks, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike m Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Here's a couple pics of what that J-45 that I didn't buy probably looks like now. Not bright red and yellow anymore. Looks better faded and darkened. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike m Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 The 1968-1970 Heritage was the same design as the j50/45, but with rosewood back and sides, and a fancy inlay on headstock with the same pearl-like? Gibson logo. These also have no inside backseam strip, but I believe the back and sides are solid, not laminated. Same belly-down rosewood adjustable bridge with rosewood saddle. These were the last Dreads of the pre Norlin era. They should not be confused with the 1971-1975 Norlin Gibson J-50's. The 1968-1970 Gibson dreads have a single x top brace and a smaller bridgeplate than the Norlin era heavy double x top braces and plywood bridgeplates. More later, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullmental Alpinist Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I would say though my '42 J-50 is King of the Hill when it comes to resorting to a burst to cover flaws. If you recall this is the guitar on which that somebody accidentally flip flopped one of the book matched top halves. Somewhere down the line somebody caught it and decided to shoot a burst on the guitar to try and cover up the screw up. So in the end it is either a very unique J-50 or one of the first or maybe the first J-45 (as the J-50s were shipped before the J-45s). I always enjoy hearing the story of your J-50/45. I believe you wrote once that the error was pointed out to you by someone on another forum? At the end of the day though straight as opposed to wavy grain is all about aesthetics. It has nothing to do with sound. Thanks for reminding us of this, Zomby. Too easy to get caught up in minutiae and ignore what the guitar sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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