Jesse_Dylan Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 No guitar is perfect. I'm not sure I've ever owned a guitar that didn't have some warts, but really they add character in a lot of ways. Well, my J-15 has a lot of character! Nothing affects it structurally, and it plays fantastic, looks great, and sounds like a million bucks. My Hummingbird Vintage has a few fingerboard divots. They don't seem to affect anything. It's just a little odd on such an expensive guitar. Hummingbird fingerboard divots and fret oddities: Not a flaw--I can't find the centerseam on the back! It can't possibly be a one-piece back, though, can it? It has a normal brace going down the center like any other two-piece back. It is a beautiful back with beautiful binding, even if the binding seam isn't exactly in the center. Anyway, I did not notice any of this before buying, and even if I had, I wouldn't have cared or even mentioned it to Music Villa. I was smitten with the guitar and still am. You just notice oddities when you're changing strings, I suppose, and again, none of this affects the structure, tone or playability of the guitar adversely at all. J-15 strangeness: Nothing quite lines up here--neck, back center seam, binding join...! I'm not one of those people who thinks Gibson ever puts out a dog, nor do I think they have fit/finish issues or quality control issues. I think they're putting out the best guitars today that have ever had Gibson on the headstock, and I'm sure what we'd consider the best vintage Gibsons all had oddities like this, too. And my J-15 sounds like a million bucks. I got a fantastic deal on it, new old stock, and I have a feeling one reason it stayed in the store was because its walnut is not particularly figured at all, and it has these oddities. It plays and sounds seriously incredible and rich and deep. I still have not done a NGD on it because I'm waiting for the custom pickguard, but it is great. It is up there with my Hummingbird, at a fraction of the cost, and it is the equal to any J-45 I've ever played, or J-35 or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 J15 - is that a seam in the top on the bass side along the fretboard extension ? You are right about that back being off-kilter. No idea how or why, and I've taken that factory tour 3 times. Bird - Finger divots - cut your nails, relax your grip a little. Even those frets look a bit used even though you've only had this a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 J15 - is that a seam in the top on the bass side along the fretboard extension ? You are right about that back being off-kilter. No idea how or why, and I've taken that factory tour 3 times. Bird - Finger divots - cut your nails, relax your grip a little. Even those frets look a bit used even though you've only had this a few weeks. J-15--Yeah, I can't imagine either! All I can say is that it functions without issue and sounds incredible. Ha. So if it is some kind of benevolent defect, it is kind of a fun one haha! Bird--Nope, those divots came with the Bird! Unless someone did it in the shop, but actually, I think I was the only person who ever played the guitar outside of the Gibson factory and Paul the Music Villa owner having a few plucks. The fretwear, I think I can claim that, though. I wonder if low-tension strings are worse for the frets. I don't use low-tension strings on purpose, just like how they sound. Just strung it up with DR Rares and it sounds wonderful, even though they're not broken in yet. So happy! Seems like a Hummingbird sounds good with almost any string, though. (I am trying to make you buy a Hummingbird, by the way.) I'm paranoid about the walnut fretboard on my J-15, so I keep my nails really short now and hands really clean when I play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I'm paranoid about the walnut fretboard on my J-15, so I keep my nails really short now and hands really clean when I play. As far as I can tell from looking at Janka hardness scales, Indian rosewood is about three times as hard as most walnuts, which may give some measure of relative expected wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 As far as I can tell from looking at Janka hardness scales, Indian rosewood is about three times as hard as most walnuts, which may give some measure of relative expected wear. I've never managed to get any fretboard wear on anything, but sometimes I wonder if that's because I trade things in too fast! :( Not even a mark on my J-15 yet, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 That's what you get for wanting a handcrafted instrument To my point of view it is part of the charm of these guitars, they are all unique in some ways. For the binding not being centered at neck joint, i believe it is intended, i have the same on my hummy. Maybe to avoid to have a weakness centered where the pressure is the highest and could cause problems at this location, or probably simply to avoid visible jointure of the 2 pieces of wood of the back? Dunno... This visible piece of glue above the nut i have it too. Anyways i think some of these defects are marks of the hand work or at least i like to think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 That's what you get for wanting a handcrafted instrument To my point of view it is part of the charm of these guitars, they are all unique in some ways. For the binding not being centered at neck joint, i believe it is intended, i have the same on my hummy. Maybe to avoid to have a weakness centered where the pressure is the highest and could cause problems at this location, or probably simply to avoid visible jointure of the 2 pieces of wood of the back? Dunno... This visible piece of glue above the nut i have it too. Anyways i think some of these defects are marks of the hand work or at least i like to think so. I'm sure if having the joins all wonky helped with the strength of a guitar then other manufacturers would be in on the secret and be doing the same... Divots in the fretboard ? They help with humidity issues ?? :) They're small issues , wouldn't keep me awake at night , but it's little wonder that Gibsons have a less than perfect persona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I'm sure if having the joins all wonky helped with the strength of a guitar then other manufacturers would be in on the secret and be doing the same... Divots in the fretboard ? They help with humidity issues ?? :) They're small issues , wouldn't keep me awake at night , but it's little wonder that Gibsons have a less than perfect persona My 2011 approx J45 was made so perfectly that they put the pickguard in the wrong place to make it seem hand made. [mellow] BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 My 2011 approx J45 was made so perfectly that they put the pickguard in the wrong place to make it seem hand made. [mellow] BluesKing777. at least it is unique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I am STILL, to this day, wondering why some people have these expectations that musical instruments are supposed to be perfect and flawless in the fit and finish department. If a person looks closely enough at anything that has to do with woodwork, there will be flaws somewhere, depending on how much of a microscope is used. "Vintage" stuff is by now often beat-up or used looking, but they were never perfect either. So where this new standard comes in that there would be perfection isn't really accurate in any measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58 Relic Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 1444132539[/url]' post='1699933']I am STILL, to this day, wondering why some people have these expectations that musical instruments are supposed to be perfect and flawless in the fit and finish department. If a person looks closely enough at anything that has to do with woodwork, there will be flaws somewhere, depending on how much of a microscope is used. "Vintage" stuff is by now often beat-up or used looking, but they were never perfect either. So where this new standard comes in that there would be perfection isn't really accurate in any measure. I'd much rather have s pair of skilled hands making my guitar than a CNC machine and a robot . I'll live with the outcome that's why I bought a Gibson Yes it's not perfect and the finish is not as flat as a mass produced guitar but boy does it play and sound great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 I am STILL, to this day, wondering why some people have these expectations that musical instruments are supposed to be perfect and flawless in the fit and finish department. If a person looks closely enough at anything that has to do with woodwork, there will be flaws somewhere, depending on how much of a microscope is used. "Vintage" stuff is by now often beat-up or used looking, but they were never perfect either. So where this new standard comes in that there would be perfection isn't really accurate in any measure. I think the assumption of perfect stuff does come because we're so used not only to factory-made stuff (as in robot factories) but IMPORTED stuff. So little is even made in the USA anymore. And I suppose when it is, we hold it to a high standard. In my defense, I've never had a guitar with fingerboard divots before, and I've never had a guitar where the seams looked so wonky. I've had a lot of Martins. They have not been perfect by any means, but I can only recall a couple tiny flaws, nothing like these ones. Maybe Martin uses more machinery, or maybe they are just more careful or fix things before they go out the door. I don't know. Gibson still use machines to make their guitars, too. It's not like they whittle the necks by hands. And I'm not sure if any guitars are made 100% by machines. Whatever the case, I am happy with my Gibsons. Well, that's an understatement. The strangeness of the J-15 adds to the appeal, and the Bird divots are not noticeable during playing and not noticeable period unless you stick your face right up in it, and even someone near-sighted will go cross-eyed trying to look at it. But certainly there is a massive price difference between a Hummingbird Vintage and a J-15, and those prices carry different assumptions. And even with a $1500 (although I paid $1000!) J-15, if you are a neophyte, deluded by the prices of imports to create the illusion that our economy is not an utter mess, you might say, "My $1500 American guitar is a disaster! Nothing lines up! It looks like kids made it in wood shop! I should have just gotten a $500 Chinese guitar! They're perfect!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The neck & back seams on my J-15 line up perfectly, but I've seen many that do not. It can happen to the best of them. In 2001, I purchased two very similar rosewood Martins (50th B-Day excuse), one natural & one sunburst. The back seam on the sunburst was off center, while the natural was right on the money. I eventually sold the sunburst, primarily because the natural had a more appealing overall tone, but that off center seam did indeed catch my eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 The neck & back seams on my J-15 line up perfectly, but I've seen many that do not. It can happen to the best of them. In 2001, I purchased two very similar rosewood Martins (50th B-Day excuse), one natural & one sunburst. The back seam on the sunburst was off center, while the natural was right on the money. I eventually sold the sunburst, primarily because the natural had a more appealing overall tone, but that off center seam did indeed catch my eye! Interesting! Had a look at my Martins. The M-36 might actually be off by a hair of a hair. The 7-28 is dead-on, though. They are both Custom Shop models according to the neck block, but I don't know if that means they are literally built in the custom shop. The M-36 is a standard production model that I made some changes to, so it wouldn't surprise me if it spent most of its manufacturing time with the standard M-36s. The 7-28 is no longer standard production, so maybe it really was built 100% in the custom shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I've never managed to get any fretboard wear on anything, but sometimes I wonder if that's because I trade things in too fast! :( Not even a mark on my J-15 yet, though. I wore a couple of divots the size of Crater Lake in a 1956 SJ. I figured it was time to have them filled in after I cut my finger on the edge of the one the board inlays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 "Vintage" stuff is by now often beat-up or used looking, but they were never perfect either. So where this new standard comes in that there would be perfection isn't really accurate in any measure. The difference is if you are looking at a Gibson made before 1944 the guitar was put together before the company even owned a router. Today Bozeman builds guitars with precision machinery and CAD/Mastercam software. My 1942 J-50 has one of the book matched top halves flip flopped which is one heck of a flaw. But considering it was largely built by ladies whose training was watching the person next to them it really does add something special to the guitar because it speaks to a specific time and place. With all of the precision machinery these days, it is a lot harder to explain flaws. Hey, maybe the OPs guitar was built by the "new guy" at Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 J15 - is that a seam in the top on the bass side along the fretboard extension ? You are right about that back being off-kilter. No idea how or why, and I've taken that factory tour 3 times. Most of my guitar tops and backs intended to be bookmatched or otherwise symmetrical are not perfectly aligned, not with neck, not with bridge, not with lower strap button. Some seams are shifted, some skew, and some both. However, I don't see these while playing them guitars... Bird - Finger divots - cut your nails, relax your grip a little. Even those frets look a bit used even though you've only had this a few weeks. I wore a couple of divots the size of Crater Lake in a 1956 SJ. I figured it was time to have them filled in after I cut my finger on the edge of the one the board inlays. I have large hands and wide fingers, awkward for fretting on steel stringed guitars. I need to keep my left fingernails as short as anyhow possible. I couldn't get most chords another way. The upside, however, is that they never get in touch with the fingerboard. The wooden surfaces just get a silkier look with time, and finished maple boards don't undergo visible changes. I also have to deal with very little fret wear although over the years one may find out strings and frets I favour for bendings... Here are my so to say permanent shortcuts pictured: ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The difference is if you are looking at a Gibson made before 1944 the guitar was put together before the company even owned a router. Today Bozeman builds guitars with precision machinery and CAD/Mastercam software. My 1942 J-50 has one of the book matched top halves flip flopped which is one heck of a flaw. But considering it was largely built by ladies whose training was watching the person next to them it really does add something special to the guitar because it speaks to a specific time and place. With all of the precision machinery these days, it is a lot harder to explain flaws. Hey, maybe the OPs guitar was built by the "new guy" at Gibson. There is probably many machines, but things seem to be made by hand too for a large part (i'm probably naive about it). Here is an example, neck and frets with women making Jesse fretboard : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 There is probably many machines, but things seem to be made by hand too for a large part (i'm probably naive about it). Here is an example, neck and frets with women making Jesse fretboard : I do think the Gibson factory is smaller and more hands-on than others, but maybe I'm naive too. "Tedious handwork but part of the overall excellent of the guitar!!" shouts Ren haha :) Where's the part where the ladies take turns pounding the heck out of my fretboard?? Just kidding, just kidding. I've seen a series of videos similar to this, but I don't think I've seen this one! I would really like to take the actual tour. I suppose Ren doesn't lead the tour anymore (or maybe he only did for the videos anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I've seen a series of videos similar to this, but I don't think I've seen this one! I would really like to take the actual tour. I suppose Ren doesn't lead the tour anymore (or maybe he only did for the videos anyway). Ren doesn't work for Gibson anymore. Whether in Bozeman, Memphis, or Nashville, Gibsons are built with a combination of modern machinery, old machinery, and hand work. As I recall, there's a grand total of something like 12 hours of actual human labor in the average Gibson flat-top. Hogeye may know the number precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I am guessing that Gibson does about the same amount of hand work as Martin and Taylor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Maybe I got lucky, but my three Gibson flat-tops (two Bozeman, one Kalamazoo), don't have any of the external fit and finish anomalies cited here. My '48-'50 J-45 does suffer a bit on the inside from that old saying, "Only a Gibson is Glued Enough". Maybe that's how it has held together for 65+ years. I struggle to even find the binding joints on any of these, except the purfling around the soundhole. The real question, of course, is: how do they sound and play? I can live with a bit of cosmetic funkiness for that Gibson tone and playability, which is the reason I own them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I've never managed to get any fretboard wear on anything, , , You must work harder - harder harder harder Nice close-ups by the way. Isn't there a little crater in the high E-B / nut-first fret zone ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Money over matter these days .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted October 7, 2015 Author Share Posted October 7, 2015 Ren doesn't work for Gibson anymore. Whether in Bozeman, Memphis, or Nashville, Gibsons are built with a combination of modern machinery, old machinery, and hand work. As I recall, there's a grand total of something like 12 hours of actual human labor in the average Gibson flat-top. Hogeye may know the number precisely. Yeah, that's why I figured he might not be leading tours anymore. :P 12 hours! That's actually pretty sparing, considering. I always thought labor was the main cost in a guitar, but if it's 12 hours, that can't be more than $200 for labor, can it? I am guessing that Gibson does about the same amount of hand work as Martin and Taylor. That's what I would have guessed, too--but Gibson is always going on and on about how they're "handbuilt," and I hear people repeat it all the time :) Ah, marketing. You must work harder - harder harder harder Nice close-ups by the way. Isn't there a little crater in the high E-B / nut-first fret zone ? Thanks! Yeah :( That crater is the worst of them. But truthfully, even that one is not bad. The photos are so up-close that it brings it out. In real-life, we'd go cross-eyed squinting at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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