charlie brown Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 WEIRD! I live in NC, and have noticed all my guitars getting fussy as the season changes. But retuning itself to F - that's intense! Yeah, isn't it?! I'd never experienced anything like that! I've had strings go flat, a full step, or in the case of the Corian nuts, ping a lot, and de-tune. But NEVER have I had any string go sharp, on it's own. Much less the low E?!! I'm really at a loss, as to what happened, and WHY?! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Yeah, isn't it?! I'd never experienced anything like that! I've had strings go flat, a full step, or in the case of the Corian nuts, ping a lot, and de-tune. But NEVER have I had any string go sharp, on it's own. Much less the low E?!! I'm really at a loss, as to what happened, and WHY?! CB The only thing making sense would be spontaneous balancing of an overtension between machine head and nut across the entire string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The only thing making sense would be spontaneous balancing of an overtension between machine head and nut across the entire string. How, exactly? Wouldn't any tension difference, between the tuner and nut giving way, result in it going "flat" (not sharp), due to their (ultimately) being less tension overall, once it (the nut) "released?" The bone nut has never bound, before, on any of the strings, in the 3 years I've owned this SG. Much less the low E string! It's all just VERY WEIRD!! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 How, exactly? Wouldn't any difference, between the tuner and nut giving way, result in it going "flat" (not sharp), due to their (ultimately) being less tension overall, once it (the nut) "released?" CB If a string is seized by the nut during tuning up, a release at the nut will make the string go sharp. An E1st might break at either tuner or nut, but any other string will survive easily and go sharp. In fact, this is the reason why guitars with strings already broken-in tend to go sharp during storage - except double-locking guitars like Floyd Rose equipped ones, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 If a string is seized by the nut during tuning up, a release at the nut will make the string go sharp. An E1st might break at either tuner or nut, but any other string will survive easily and go sharp. In fact, this is the reason why guitars with strings already broken-in tend to go sharp during storage - except double-locking guitars like Floyd Rose equipped ones, of course. Thanks, Capmaster...I think I understand what you're saying....I just thought that once it un-seized, it would still go flat, not sharp, due to less tension, overall, once it un-seized? But, what you're saying is even with the less tension, after the release, it would still go sharp as the tuner was initially wound still tighter, than what the sting pitch moved, initially. Right??? I don't THINK I overwound it...but, I could have, and just not been aware. I use a chromatic tuner, so it's pretty obvious if the pitch is moving. But, anything's possible, I suppose? Also, what caused the bone nut, to suddenly start 'pinching' the strings? Do bone nuts shrink and expand, do to temps and/or humidity, as well? Sorry, if these are "dumb" questions, but...as I said, I've never experienced anything like this, before! :unsure: CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Thanks, Capmaster...I think I understand what you're saying....I just thought that once it un-seized, it would still go flat, not sharp, due to less tension, overall, once it un-seized? But, what you're saying is even with the less tension, after the release, it would still go sharp as the tuner was initially wound still tighter, than what the sting moved, initially. Right??? I don't THINK I overwound it...but, I could have, and just not been aware. I use a chromatic tuner, so it's pretty obvious if the pitch is moving. But, not impossible, I suppose? CB The usual tactics say tuning slightly flat, then pulling up until correct pitch. However, next to all nuts have a friction. At the moment you finish tuning, sliding friction changes to static friction seizing the string and thus "freezing" the pitch. String attack or longer periods of time may cause momentary transitions to slide friction again. Because of being tuned up for the last time, the tension between tuner and nuts is above that between nut and bridge. The distribution of tension will lead to a decrease between tuner and nut while the tension of the entire rest of the string increases. These processes are the reason why MinE-Tune and G-Force have their accuracy problems. They are not due to tuners but mainly nuts and partly bridges. You may remember that next to all complaints go around sharp pitches. Electronic tuners can't pick a string, I can. Without dozens of intermittent, very fast, hard attacks of the muted, open (!) strings at various positions I couldn't tune most guitars properly - OK, it's not required on Floyd Rose guitars. I make the strings settle at the nut through this. My Explorer's B2nd and E1st are most affected and would go rapidly and badly sharp during playing without using this method, but it is the best and fastest way possible on any guitar, even when using the TP-6 which again makes tuning much faster. On Fenders mostly string trees are the problem, not nuts, due to the straight string run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Interesting! Thanks, Capmaster! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkesman Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I totally agree with cap. I was thinking about this problem today, and that it is virtually impossible that it's an issue with the tuners, particularly if it can also de-tune to a sharp. It must be because the string is being 'pinched' by either the saddle or nut, and the grip that either (or both) is imparting to the string suddenly 'gives'. Assuming that when tuning you always tune up, not down (of course you tune up!), then if the tension in the string between the tailpiece and saddle is not even with the rest of the string because of friction, then a little pressure when playing could release the difference which would make it go flat. However if the nut is 'gripping', then when the string slips it will tune the string up because the tension betwixt nut and peg was higher than the rest of the string. Hope this makes sense! A simple test I do is to remove the strings and (using my usual gauge) test them in the nut by hand. Cover the inside of the nut-slots with pencil graphite and firmly slide the appropriate string up and down the slot whilst applying pressure against it. Then look at the slot. If there's still graphite at the bottom of the slot then it is too narrow and is likely to cause the string to stick, and then 'ping' under use. The saddles are a bit trickier, but by using the same sliding technique you can sort of 'feel' whether the slots are too tight, whether that's because they are a bit too narrow, or so pointed that they 'stab' the string and catch the windings. I put a lot of work into my SG Special when I first got it, and now it stays in tune almost permanently, only requiring the very slightest tweak from time to time, regardless of seasons or weather. Just my two cents! Regards, H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 All good information, and opinions. What ASTOUNDS me, STILL...is that one of the least expensive parts, on a guitar, regardless of that guitar's price point, seems to have the least amount of concern=care, in the building process, both in material use, and cutting it correctly! Giving the purchaser/player, all kinds of unneeded tuning stability headaches! The "Nut" is critical...yet, it seems to be treated most cavalier, in the whole of the process. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkesman Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 What ASTOUNDS me, STILL...is that one of the least expensive parts, on a guitar, regardless of that guitar's price point, seems to have the least amount of concern=care, in the building process, both in material use, and cutting it correctly! Giving the purchaser/player, all kinds of unneeded tuning stability headaches! The "Nut" is critical...yet, it seems to be treated most cavalier, in the whole of the process. CB Quite so. But, disregarding other issues with nuts, and speaking solely of slots, then if one were being generous to Gibson (and others) you could argue that they don't know which gauge strings you're going to use. I used to use Ernie Ball Extra Slinky's (8-38), but for years now I've used Regulars (10-46). Now throw the Beefy Slinky's into the mix (11-54). The difference between 8 and 11, and 38 and 54 is HUGE (in slot terms). So maybe they start with a slot that may be too small for many people, but do it on the basis that it's a hell of a lot easier to make the slot bigger to suit your needs than it is to make it smaller! However, if this were so then they ought to say so up front, so purchasers (particularly less experienced ones) can either ask the shop to size the slots for their particular strings BEFORE they collect the guitar, or at least give some guidance as to what to do (even if that's just to take it to your nearest luthier for adjustment!). The trouble with that, of course, is that the string sizes you were happy with on your previous axe might not work so well on the new one, which may leave you another problem. I'll stop now as I'm in danger of over-thinking this! Cheers, H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I just remembered an old trick for tuning stability a former bandmate of mine (1980-1987) regularly applied with his hardtail Strat: He always tuned a certain amount flat and then struck the strings between nut and tuners. They went sharper instantly, and due to his experience in doing this they mostly were in tune at once. He didn't have to retune for hours thereafter. I just tried it on a Telecaster which was sharp out of the case - of course, hahaha - and had to tune each string several times until it worked, but then they stayed fine. Anyway, I don't know if it works on guitars with string runs curving across the nut. Just played an SG with a TP-6 and she came correctly tuned out of her case. No reason to fool around with pitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkesman Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Yeah - I do a similar thing with my old Destroyer. The string runs on the B and E strings between the nut and the peg is very long, and there is no intermediate support as there is on a Strat. So when I tune it I always bend those sections after tuning, at which point the strings always go out very slightly, then I fine tune them once more. Settles it down nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I totally get that Gibson, or any other company has NO idea, what gauge strings their customer may ultimately use. But, when the new "stock" stings "ping and pull" in the stock nut, from the get go, something's not being done, or checked properly...IMHO. We've had endless discussions, about the nut, and it's critical role, in tuning issues, for as long as I've been a member of this forum. And, we're STILL having discussions, about the importance of a properly cut nut, for tuning stability! And, I still haven't figured out, or heard, how my bone nut, could be fine for 2 years, then...one night, it suddenly starts pinging and pulling strings??! I haven't changed string gauges, or done anything else, differently, than I've been doing, since I got the guitar. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkesman Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hi CB. Not every nut slot will be suitable for every string gauge. That's unavoidable, and not the manufacturer's fault. That's all I was saying. However I'm also not suggesting that there may not be some sh|t QC going on either! But I also get that your problem is different, in that it was OK for ages, nothing has changed, yet it no longer behaves as it used to. I wish I could lay hands on the guitar, as this is a real curiosity (and a right royal pain for you), but unfortunately I'm a few thousand miles away (assuming you're in the US). I hope you can sort it out, I really do. Best, H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Hi CB. Not every nut slot will be suitable for every string gauge. That's unavoidable, and not the manufacturer's fault. That's all I was saying. However I'm also not suggesting that there may not be some sh|t QC going on either! But I also get that your problem is different, in that it was OK for ages, nothing has changed, yet it no longer behaves as it used to. I wish I could lay hands on the guitar, as this is a real curiosity (and a right royal pain for you), but unfortunately I'm a few thousand miles away (assuming you're in the US). I hope you can sort it out, I really do. Best, H. No problem, Hawkesman. Things are going downhill, with the SG, at the moment. I had some tuning problems, this PM, at a gig! So, I ended up using my Telecaster, for the remainder of the gig! No such "oddities" with it! LOL I'll run the SG back up to my dealer (and Luthier), and maybe they can sort it all out?! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 After playing my SG, for several hours today, I'm leaning toward the "Weather" being the culprit, at yesterday's outdoor gig. Today, it seems fine, and back to it's usual, and previously trustworthy self! But, I'm still going to take it in, to my Luthier, and have him check it all out... just to be sure. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I totally get that Gibson, or any other company has NO idea, what gauge strings their customer may ultimately use. But, when the new "stock" stings "ping and pull" in the stock nut, from the get go, something's not being done, or checked properly...IMHO. We've had endless discussions, about the nut, and it's critical role, in tuning issues, for as long as I've been a member of this forum. And, we're STILL having discussions, about the importance of a properly cut nut, for tuning stability! And, I still haven't figured out, or heard, how my bone nut, could be fine for 2 years, then...one night, it suddenly starts pinging and pulling strings??! I haven't changed string gauges, or done anything else, differently, than I've been doing, since I got the guitar. CB Not that it helps you any, but I've actually experienced the same thing with two acoustics, one is a J45, the other is a Martin 000-15M. Bought them both in the spring of this year. Got the J45's Tusq nut replaced with a nadmade bone nut my luthier made for it, adjust had the Martin set up by them (had a bone nut stock) and nut slots addressed, etc. I've traveled quite a bit since then, going back and forth to Colorado and the Bay Area, bringing both guitars with me. Both just recently started to 'ping' when tuning the guitar. Used a graphite pencil and rubbed some filings into the nut slots and seems to be all good now for both guitars. I also have 2 SG's, one is a 2013 Standard, the other is a 2008 SG Classic w/ P90's. Both seem to stay in tune just fine, but both have also had both set up by my luther/shop. The 2013 will waver in and out a bit, more like a tremolo effect, a-la Pete Towensend, but thats more if the combo of a thin profile neck and neck going I think. The SG Classic has a huge, fat neck on it, and it super stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 FWIW, I wouldn't pass up a Guild Polara. I think they're pretty sweet looking guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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