Mixed slants on Les Paul bridge saddles

[OLDFART]

FOR THOSE PONDERING THE HOW AND THE WHY OF LES PAUL BRIDGE VARIANTS:

Well, another issue has come to mind as I journey into the land of all things Les Paul to comply w my latest and greatest obsession.

The variants on the std Les Paul tune-o-matic bridge:

 

Being rather a fanatic on intonation setup and having a fair level of tech savvy experience much less an IQ high than my shoe size (see various forum experts).

We see on various Les Paul bridges that some saddles have a slanted and a straight edge side. For some reason I keep seeing mixed saddles on many bridges from the factory with 1,2,3 slants to the back and 4.5.6 slants to the front. After much bewildering investigations I have finally solved the issue for those perplexed as I was on the matter.

When I require a solution to an issue I do not stop until I solve the issue being a part of my Engineering background and my 40yrs of playing and tech work. So don't hate me because I am pretty, I am just putting what I have found for those who might want to have some actual source of factual basis rather than anything goes or what you like answers:

Here are the points:

1.) Why the slant side?

Ergonomic design would indicate the slant side fits the stop piece side of the bridge to follow the downward slope of the strings as they come off the bridge down to the stop piece.

Why the straight edge side?

Ergonomic engineering would once again indicate the hard edge end would be better for intonation accuracy to end the string length on a absolute edge.

 

2.) Why are some mixed and why some from the factory mixed?

Simple really, in the needed distance to adjust for intonation one might need to flip the saddle to have a little more travel on the screw adjust as you get near the end of thread travel. So this is why one tends to see 4,5,6 with the saddle slants to the neck and 1,2,3 with the slant to the stop piece. A simple resolve of the issue.

 

3.) What is optimal?

Many uber experienced tech guitar mavens will set the slants to the stop piece, which is the indicative intent of the slant profile.

Now if you need more travel on the saddle adjust on your particular guitar (as no guitars are generic the same, even the mighty Les Paul). You may need to flip the saddle to get some more screw travel.

Does it matter?

Hard to discern on most tuners if there is a slightly better more stable note definition on the hard edge verses the slant. I suggest it is slightly better but I also doubt the average guitar player can tell an "ear" difference. But, if you are a fanatic for getting things perfect, like I often am, the optimal is slant to the stop piece as the ergonomic slope of the string suggests.

 

If you need to flip some, seems to be no real big issue in doing so. I have documented that most Les Paul's have 1,2,3 slants to the stop piece and 4,5,6 to the neck as that is the usual intonation adjust.

 

Many replacement bridges and my newer Les Paul have stopped using the slanted bridge pieces all together opting for the hard edge which again suggest the intonation is better on the edge side.

The better replacement bridges control the string length more accurately for a better intonation result.

Does it matter? Probably not to the "ear" of most "players" (see youtube in general).

Personally, I tend to put slope to the stop piece and adjust screws to the stop piece. If you have to flip them makes no huge difference. Mine were bugging me because at my intonation settings there was no reason to have the thicker strings reversed.

 

Which by the way the mathematical physics of string length intonation indicates thinner strings will have closer(sharp) saddles to the nut and thicker strings more back(flat) from the nut,

All intonations on all bridge guitar guitars should resemble a dual stair step appearance with varying degrees of the steps but from 6 to 1.

I tried to make a simple diagram but apparently need to draw and insert it as the spacing goes crazy on the window when posting. Will see if I can get that done if this gets any reads.

 

1st always closer and 6st always further away. The amount of step is slightly different to each guitar and the string gauges but all guitars will have a slight step arrangement else you simply are not intonated properly.

(to try and describe the proper step pattern, from the 1st to the 3rd small steps down and the 4th to the 6th again with the 4th starting more between where the 2nd and 4rd saddles are positioned. It is a matter of string thickness to mathematic physics of string length and note division (ancient Greeks).

 

ADJUSTMENT SCREWS TO NECK SIDE OR STOP PIECE SIDE:

As to the screw adjusts facing the bridge pickup or the stop piece: Simply a matter the old style vintage faces the stop piece newer face the bridge pickup which they call the Nashville thing.

It simply does not matter as to the function just if you reach the screws easy. I tend to prefer to the back of the bridge as that is more normal for me having played Strats for a long time and the adjust just seems easier access.

 

STRING "TENSION" and the mystery of the stop piece height:

There is lot of back and forth on this matter of of one needs to have the stop piece hard screwed to the body or does it matter?

Indeed the more down the stop piece the greater the tension on the strings if you like a spongy feel like a Fender Trem thing then less tension is probably your thing.

Seems to pose no real issue having the stop piece hard down to the body tension wise. Many prefer it. But, there is the occasional Les Paul model that has a more angled neck tilt (up to 5 degrees) and the stop piece is just not going to go hard to the body. Does it matter. Probably not. A simple vibration test on the thicker strings indicate you can feel the string vibration on the bridge itself but when checked on the stop piece there is no discernible vibration one might need to ground to the body.

I have both Les Paul types of hard to the body and one that cannot and I actually prefer the one that it is not hard down. So tone wise I do not think it matters at all. One can get into an argument of woods, resonance and sustain but in general laws of physics are what they are and they are not matters of opinion.

The consensus of proper adjust on the stop piece by notable guitar repair and tech mavens is that one does not want the strings to touch the back of the bridge edge as they travel down to the stop piece. So wherever you need to set that stop to get the strings as close to the bridge edge is where it needs to go. If you check the solidity and stability of the stop piece on most Les Paul's I have seen the device is very firm and stable and there is no evidence of string vibration on the stop piece that needs to be grounded to the body. And if such a grounding is done and you are bending the strings against the bridge edge that is not desired in the grand scope of doing things properly. So bottom line if the pieces are firm and stable the stop piece goes where it goes and it is not a requirement to hard tighten into the body.

There is also the old vintage trick of "top wrapping" if you want to hard tighten the stop piece but do not want to hit the strings on the bridge edge.

The only issue I find with the "top wrap" is it looks a little funky to me and Gibson abandoned the practice after the first years of the LP. I also feel engineering wise and ergonomic issue that the string is better served having some sort of guide nitch verses just the round of the stop piece. Which two things there, in time the string I am sure will make its own nitch in the stop piece top and before that occurs, vibration would indicate the string does not dead into the stop piece as well grounding the vibration for better sustain.

So there you have the Info I have found and researched. Use it or lose it.

[rct]

1st always closer and 6st always further away. The amount of step is slightly different to each guitar and the string gauges but all guitars will have a slight step arrangement else you simply are not intonated properly.

 

If you intonate your guitar by looking at the saddles yer doin it wrong. The tuner says where the saddle stops, no matter what it looks like.

 

rct

[capmaster]

In fact it is all about proper intonation adjustability.

 

All of the Tune-O-Matics in my use call for mixed slants. The plain G3rd's saddle is reversed on all of them, some call for a reversed B2nd saddle, others for flipping the E6th saddle, some for both.

 

I found that there is very little predictability. It depends on the actual guitar and her interaction with the particular strings.

[BigKahune]

... ADJUSTMENT SCREWS TO NECK SIDE OR STOP PIECE SIDE:

As to the screw adjusts facing the bridge pickup or the stop piece: Simply a matter the old style vintage faces the stop piece newer face the bridge pickup which they call the Nashville thing.

It simply does not matter as to the function just if you reach the screws easy. I tend to prefer to the back of the bridge as that is more normal for me having played Strats for a long time and the adjust just seems easier access.

 

Actually it's a design difference. The ABR (older) has it's adjustment screws at the top edge of the bridge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the neck to prevent the touching the screw heads by the strings as they angle over the saddle to the stop. Notice the Nashville adjustment screws are set lower than top of the bridge edge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the stop. So, ABR TOMs have their adjustment screws facing the neck, and Nashville TOMS have heir adjustment screws facing the stop.

 

ABR -

 

Nashville -

 

.

[OLDFART]

If you intonate your guitar by looking at the saddles yer doin it wrong. The tuner says where the saddle stops, no matter what it looks like.

 

rct

You're not understanding the basic design and math of string thickness, it is all relative examine any guitar properly set up you will see what I have said any tuner will produce the same stair step pattern across the strings.

Your intonation is off, check it on a strobe, it is a solid thing not open to opinion. The stair step thing has to be there else your strings are the same size.

[OLDFART]

Actually it's a design difference. The ABR (older) has it's adjustment screws at the top edge of the bridge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the neck to prevent the strings from touching the screw heads as they angle over the saddle to the stop. Notice the Nashville adjustment screws are set lower than top of the bridge edge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the stop.

 

ABR

 

 

Nashville

 

.

 

Exactly what I have detailed. It is a matter of travel to adjust and makes no difference in general. Newer replacement bridges tend to eliminate the slant completely. Adjustment screws on either side is merely a matter of reaching them for easiest adjust, it does not matter.

[rct]

You're not understanding the basic design and math of string thickness, it is all relative examine any guitar properly set up you will see what I have said any tuner will produce the same stair step pattern across the strings.

Your intonation is off, check it on a strobe, it is a solid thing not open to opinion. The stair step thing has to be there else your strings are the same size.

 

Gosh thanks! 44 plus years of playing, recording, touring, bars, and bands and I had no idea my intonation was out!

 

rct

[BigKahune]

Exactly what I have detailed. It is a matter of travel to adjust and makes no difference in general. Newer replacement bridges tend to eliminate the slant completely. Adjustment screws on either side is merely a matter of reaching them for easiest adjust, it does not matter.

 

You don't get it. It actually does matter. Some players like the stop adjusted as far down as it will go and to do that with an ABR TOM, the adjustment screws have to face the neck, exactly as the Gibson factory installs ABR TOMs.

 

 

.

[OLDFART]

Gosh thanks! 44 plus years of playing, recording, touring, bars, and bands and I had no idea my intonation was out!

 

rct

 

Glad to help. I am not a teenager with no experience myself sorry man, but it is what it is.

Any guitar of any type will show the same step pattern on the strings in variance of how much the step is apparent but always due to math and physics the thickness of the strings to the length and scale is a constant. I wish pictures were easier here. Be glad to show how all guitars have the same relative step as that is just string thickness to length and musical note mathematics the Greeks discovered ages past. I have no mean to insult anyone but things are what they are and opinions are all fine and good but as usual there are facts and numbers involved with reality.

[capmaster]

Real strings are not ideal strings. The bends are not sharp but slightly curved, so the effective string length is slightly shorter than the physical one between nut and saddle edges. This calls for compensation, and that's what adjustable saddles are made for. The length to be compensated won't depend significantly on the vibrating lenght which allows for a single adjustment matching the entire fretboard for each string if it is a properly made one.

 

Hope this helps.

[deeman]

I agree with everything everyone has said in this thread.

[OLDFART]

 

 

The step pattern on the bridge is what proper intonation looks like. The steps may vary but the order and overall position of one string to the next remains the same.

Any guitar properly intonated will have these steps on the saddles. The 1st will be closer than the 2nd, and the 3rd following the 2nd. Repeats again on the 4th closer the 5th and the 6th the furthest away. That is basically why the Les Paul bridge is offset mounted with the treble string side slanted towards the neck.

 

Sorry just how it is. I was just in the musics store today and right down the line you can see this pattern guitar to guitar. Even w minute adjustments the basic step pattern remains as it just relates to the string gauges and mathematical divisions of strings to produce an octave.

If your bridge saddle positions do not resemble this pattern you are just not in tune. Maybe use a good tuner other than your ears.

 

 

As far as anything else sometimes I wonder what it is some think they are reading or comprehending. Often agreeing to the issue as if their response means something different.

Or quoting something which has nothing to do with their point.

Few members of Mensa.

Everything I explained in the opening paper is correct. Any knowledgeable tech like Dane Erlewine is going to say the same things as that is the straight up FAQ.

[OLDFART]

You don't get it. It actually does matter. Some players like the stop adjusted as far down as it will go and to do that with and ABR TOM, the adjustment screws have to face the neck, exactly as the Gibson factory installs ABR TOMs.

 

 

.

 

The only thing I do not get is what you are talking about. I was talking about the saddle screws either facing the bridge pickup or the stop piece side. Makes no difference which way, merely a matter if you can reach them for easy adjustment. My Les Paul faces the stop piece and it is a new one. My Epi faces the pickup side. Makes no difference to how you set the stop piece.

They simply do not have to face the neck and you can see countless guitars with them on the stop piece side. In fact right down the line at the music store every one was facing the stop piece.

I simply said as long as you can turn the screws without obstruction it does not matter. I use a guitar synth pickup so mine have to face away else they cannot be reached and also the pickup is in the way as well. Like I said if you actually read what the words say, the info is correct and I put it here in cases someone like me is wondering why of the bridge saddle slant and edge sides and so on.

I am aware some like their stop piece hard down the body and that does not matter either. What does matter if you are hitting the strings on the bridge edge as they slope down to the stop piece, If they touch the bridge edge, that is not correct setup. Which is why in some cases a "top wrap" is necessary to clear the bridge edge.

Ask Gibson or someone like Erlewine, I am right Chaps. That is just the straight up skinny.

 

Have a happy Les Paul day.

[stein]

Actually it's a design difference. The ABR (older) has it's adjustment screws at the top edge of the bridge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the neck to prevent the touching the screw heads by the strings as they angle over the saddle to the stop. Notice the Nashville adjustment screws are set lower than top of the bridge edge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the stop. So, ABR TOMs have their adjustment screws facing the neck, and Nashville TOMS have heir adjustment screws facing the stop.

 

ABR -

 

Nashville -

 

.

 

 

I was talking about the saddle screws either facing the bridge pickup or the stop piece side. Makes no difference which way, merely a matter if you can reach them for easy adjustment. My Les Paul faces the stop piece and it is a new one. My Epi faces the pickup side. Makes no difference to how you set the stop piece.

 

 

Have a happy Les Paul day.

Please review BK's post again, including looking at the pics. He is correct.

 

There are two different bridges, both are TOM (Tune-O-Matic) and they look similar, but one is a Nashville TOM, and one is an ABR-1 TOM. If you can't see from the pics, the ABR-1 has the adjustment screws ABOVE THE EDGE OF THE BRIDGE. Because of the location of the adjustment screws, it is nearly impossible to install the bridge with the screws facing a stop bar on a guitar made with one.

[Desmosedici]

I can't believe the newbe had a shot at rct and BK !

 

What a colossal arse!

 

Funny though, and I eagerly await his further ravings.

[badbluesplayer]

IMO

 

1) Mechanics theory says that string tension doesn't change when you move the stopbar up or down. Bending is just as hard either way. It will bend the posts easier on an ABR bridge the more you crank the stopbar down. There may be some reason why theory doesn't apply but I don't see any.

2) Saddles have "steps" between them when they're adjusted. At the same time, the guitar in the Sweetwater pic will probably need to have the intonation adjusted. You can tell by looking at it. No big deal.

3) The bridge is designed so that the screws always face the board if it's an ABR and face the stopbar on a Nashville bridge. You can turn it around if you want. It may work just fine but it's designed to go a certain way.

4) Gibson usually sets the saddles all with the bevel toward the stopbar unless they need to go the other way to allow more room to move them.

5) Gibson usually sets the stopbar height at the factory so the break angle over the bridge is about the same as the break angle over the nut.

 

FWIW

[Guest Farnsbarns]

The string tension is absolutely unaffected by the stop tail hight. That's nonsense.

 

The reason the saddles have an angle is precisely so you can turn them to maximise the adjustment range. I should have thought that was obvious if I'm honest, especially to an engineer. How has it got anything to do with ergonomics? They're under the strings!

 

Setting the intonation by eye is propostorous, the tolerances in strings alone make that impossible. I regularly end up setting intonation such that one saddle is not following the expected sequence. Why? Because a stroboscopic tuner tells me to and it sounds right.

 

The reason the screws are on different sides is because they would foul the strings if they were at the back of an ABR 1.

 

Would it be fair to say you had a lot to gain by asking rather than telling?

[kaicho8888]

Too much info for me...

 

Luckily, we now have electronic tuners! I don't know where my tuning forks or pipe tuners are anymore! Plus, I also get hearing fatique. One of my Gibson saddles do not follow the stair-step pattern... I suppose the bridge posts were installed a little off the standard angle.

 

Bottom line, do what you have to "do" to intonate correctly...and then play it more.

[jdgm]

Actually it's a design difference. The ABR (older) has it's adjustment screws at the top edge of the bridge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the neck to prevent the touching the screw heads by the strings as they angle over the saddle to the stop. Notice the Nashville adjustment screws are set lower than top of the bridge edge, so when the factory installs them the screws face the stop. So, ABR TOMs have their adjustment screws facing the neck, and Nashville TOMS have heir adjustment screws facing the stop.

 

IMO

1) Mechanics theory says that string tension doesn't change when you move the stopbar up or down. Bending is just as hard either way. It will bend the posts easier on an ABR bridge the more you crank the stopbar down. There may be some reason why theory doesn't apply but I don't see any.

2) Saddles have "steps" between them when they're adjusted. At the same time, the guitar in the Sweetwater pic will probably need to have the intonation adjusted. You can tell by looking at it. No big deal.

3) The bridge is designed so that the screws always face the board if it's an ABR and face the stopbar on a Nashville bridge. You can turn it around if you want. It may work just fine but it's designed to go a certain way.

4) Gibson usually sets the saddles all with the bevel toward the stopbar unless they need to go the other way to allow more room to move them.

5) Gibson usually sets the stopbar height at the factory so the break angle over the bridge is about the same as the break angle over the nut.

FWIW

 

 

The string tension is absolutely unaffected by the stop tail height. That's nonsense.

 

The reason the saddles have an angle is precisely so you can turn them to maximise the adjustment range. ..... I regularly end up setting intonation such that one saddle is not following the expected sequence. Why? Because a stroboscopic tuner tells me to and it sounds right.

The reason the screws are on different sides is because they would foul the strings if they were at the back of a Nashville because it's wider.

 

This is all good clear logical practical information.

[OLDFART]

This is all good clear logical practical information.

Someone gets it.

I merely provided the information for those who wanted to know the issues of the Les Paul bridges.

 

As for "newbie" yeah playing 41yrs, with engineering background and actually knowing real things, makes you a stupid teenager who does not have a clue.

I did mention the different screw side bridge types in post one, I am very sorry so many have poor reading skills or cannot get past a two line twitter say nothing.

If you think something is incorrect do show it and then step back and realize one of two things, you are agreeing with the same thing said, or you have misunderstood the information/words.

 

By the way kids, the front mount screws (towards) the pickups does not work for me at all. AND once again it does not matter which side the screws are on, EXCEPT, for the matter of access.

My Gibson LP bridge screw adjusts face toward the stop piece and are just fine. My Epiphone Custom, however, does not work for me w its screws facing the pickup, two major problems, I am not going to lower my pickup down just to turn the screws for adjustment which is ludicrous. Two, if you install a GK-3 synth pickup like I use you simply cannot have screws on that side of the bridge, period. I find in most cases having screws facing the pickup is more problematic to access than on the other side. And you can simply flip the bridge around as it poses no real issue to do that. The saddles are pretty much the same distance when you flip it, just a minor intonation tweak. As I mentioned if your pickup has the slanted/straight edge saddle it makes no real difference which way they face. Many newer replacement designs do not use the slanted saddle anyway. As I explained the reason why some are turned differently is merely needing more adjustment range on the screw for some guitars.

 

It simply does not matter across the grand scope of bridge issues on the Les Paul, direction of saddles (if slanted and edge sides), screws on either side of the bridge, or if your stop piece is hard down to the body. Anyway that function indicates it HAS to be is OK for the Les Paul.

 

So information given.

Use it, lose it, misunderstand it or whatever. As Always just trying to add something viable rather than one line insults or not comprehending anything.

[OLDFART]

Please review BK's post again, including looking at the pics. He is correct.

 

There are two different bridges, both are TOM (Tune-O-Matic) and they look similar, but one is a Nashville TOM, and one is an ABR-1 TOM. If you can't see from the pics, the ABR-1 has the adjustment screws ABOVE THE EDGE OF THE BRIDGE. Because of the location of the adjustment screws, it is nearly impossible to install the bridge with the screws facing a stop bar on a guitar made with one.

 

Yes I know that for **** sake.

And yet you can just flip it around. Screws on the pickup side do not work for my guitars, period. You cannot mount a synth pickup bracket against those screws. If you cannot flip it then, one can always buy another bridge which faces the back if you have to. Most Les Paul's are different from model and year to year. One has to do what works for their personal guitar. I have no disagreement with there being different types of bridges (I did try to point that out several times) merely having screws on the pickup side does not work all that well in comparison. For my use not workable at all. I merely flipped the one on my Epiphone around and it works just fine.

[Eracer_Team]

if you are using an ABR-1 bridge and you turn the TOM around so the adjustment screws face the Stop Tail , the strings "crest" over the back of the ABR-1 down to the stop tail and their adjustment screws,

 

those strings will get cut and snap in half when they get nicked with the ABR-1 TOM adjustment screws when the ABR-1 is setup with the intonation screws towards the stop tail.

 

it makes no other hill of beans to have the intonation screws facing forward or backward other than the simple fact that your strings will break in half with an ABR-1 facing the rear.

 

Nashville Bridges do not have this problem since their screws are lower in the TOM body.. (please see pictures posted in this thread) and the Nashville bridge is wider allowing a greater front to back movement allowing for a great range of intonation per string

 

you're right you can't argue with an engineer..

[capmaster]

... I merely flipped the one on my Epiphone around and it works just fine.

There! So why did you make that lots of fuzz?

 

...

you're right you can't argue with an engineer.

[BigKahune]

.

 

Apparently you still don't understand the difference between the ABR-1 and Nashville TOMs. It appears you went back and edited your orginal post, but you confused the bridges again ->

 

... ADJUSTMENT SCREWS TO NECK SIDE OR STOP PIECE SIDE:

As to the screw adjusts facing the bridge pickup or the stop piece: Simply a matter the old style vintage faces the stop piece newer face the bridge pickup which they call the Nashville thing.

It simply does not matter as to the function just if you reach the screws easy. I tend to prefer to the back of the bridge as that is more normal for me having played Strats for a long time and the adjust just seems easier access. ...

 

I suggest you correct your statement to this: ...the old style vintage (ABR-1 TOM) faces the bridge pickup, and newer Nashville TOM faces the stop piece.

 

Then completely edit out the next sentence, because it absolutely matters to the function of the ABR-1 bridge which way its screws face. As Eracer_Team pointed out above, as well as other members, including me: the ABR-1 is properly installed with its screws facing the neck/bridge-pickup because its screw heads reach above the plane of the bridge top (go back and look at the pictures I posted). If you flip the ABR-1 to have the screws face the stop piece, then the strings will touch the top of the screw heads as they bend over the saddles toward the stop piece.

 

Since you prefer the adjustments screws facing the stop, you shouldn't have any trouble, as most Gibson guitars that don't use wrap around bridges come with the Nashville TOM installed as it should be, with its screws facing the stop, for easier adjustment. . The ABR-1 TOM is mostly used on Gibson vintage style Historics and Reissues installed as it should be, with its screws facing the neck/bridge-pickup to avoid the strings touching the screw heads.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

.

[cs orange widow]

I wouldn't brag about having a engineering background, although it works on paper, doesn't always work in the real world!! Just speaking from experience dealing with engineers haha.... All jokes aside, I believe there is valid points from everyone here, I'm exited to see where it goes!!