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Where Did All The Beveling Go...? LOL


charlie brown

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Well, the 2016 SG's have the punier bevels, and less (if any) horn tapering, once again! [cursing][crying]

 

I was SO HOPING that Gibson would retain the early '60's specs, in that regard, at least! (Heavy Sigh!)

And, that in doing so, they'd reintroduce the bound, dot neck, P-90 Special, once again! [crying] As

well as a similar spec'd SG Jr.

 

"Foiled, Again!!" (In my best W.C. Fields impersonation)..."Yes, Indeed!"

 

WCFieldsNeverGiveaSuckerandEvenBrea.jpg

 

I wonder WHY they did that...it seemed, by most accounts, that the original spec's were met with

overwhelming approval, and "love!" Why change it back?! [blink]

 

CB

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To my impression, they didn't read the Bevel Police manual carefully enough. [biggrin]

 

Seriously, if they did a 1970's S-G reissue, these es-hyphen-gees would call for these next-to-no bevels, as well as for all the other design details like SP-2 peghead, volute, deeper neck set, tarback pickups, harmonica bridge, different bridge pickup, bridge and tailpiece positioning.

 

But I'm with you that the shape of a "normal" SG should be close to the image of the 1961 model, including neck, body, and pickups as well. I admit that ABR-1 bridge and aluminum lightweight tailpiece could be left for some CS models.

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To my impression, they didn't read the Bevel Police manual carefully enough. [biggrin]

 

Seriously, if they did a 1970's S-G reissue, these es-hyphen-gees would call for these next-to-no bevels, as well as for all the other design details like SP-2 peghead, volute, deeper neck set, tarback pickups, harmonica bridge, different bridge pickup, bridge and tailpiece positioning.

 

But I'm with you that the shape of a "normal" SG should be close to the image of the 1961 model, including neck, body, and pickups as well. I admit that ABR-1 bridge and aluminum lightweight tailpiece could be left for some CS models.

 

 

Yeah, Cap...2012-2014 was a great period, for SG's! Maybe, they'll do it, again, sometime in the (near?) future?!

Hope so! [thumbup]

 

CB

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Ha - you name it! [biggrin] Three 2013-er SGs here. [thumbup]

 

Yeah, Me too! I got one, in late 2012 (December), and the other 3, in 2013,

as they were introduced. LOVE them ALL! [thumbup] In fact, they've (almost)

taken over, my playing time, since. Glad guitars aren't sentient, and don't

have "feelings!" Otherwise, I'd have some disappointed, and frustrated

instruments, here. [biggrin]

 

CB

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Well, I stand somewhat corrected...it seems there ARE still versions, with the nicer bevels

and horn tapers, after all. The HP line, still has them! Why Gibson chose not to include

them, in the "Traditional" line, where they certainly belong, is anyone's guess. ??? But,

at least they are still available, to some degree!

 

Seems a lot of extra (and unnecessary) work, for Gibson, to have 2 different body spec's!

But, whatever works, for them, I guess? [tongue]

 

CB

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Some nice Sg's in the '16 line up [thumbup]

As i got a few and the cash ain't flowing as it was, no '16 sg for me [thumbdn]

 

Last year Xtra slim Sg almost got me, but the bevels on that was just enough to keep me away.

As i said i got a few, so i'm picky [biggrin]

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When I was a kid all the Gibson product posters/ brochures had the modern 90's style beveling (as it was the 90's). These were the SGs I was used to seeing and thought were the norm. It was till years later I realised the 60's bevels were different, hence I like both the early and later bevels, The only time I don't like SG's is during the 'no bevel/ taper at all' Norlin period when they just didn't look enough like SG's anymore to my eyes and they had those ugly bridges too.

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When I was a kid all the Gibson product posters/ brochures had the modern 90's style beveling (as it was the 90's). These were the SGs I was used to seeing and thought were the norm. It was till years later I realised the 60's bevels were different, hence I like both the early and later bevels, The only time I don't like SG's is during the 'no bevel/ taper at all' Norlin period when they just didn't look enough like SG's anymore to my eyes and they had those ugly bridges too.

 

 

Yeah, it's all what you're used to, or prefer, for sure! I grew up with, and learned on, the early '60's versions!

So, those will always be my favorite specs, regarding "beveling" and horn tapering.

 

CB

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Well CB, guess you are going to have to get used to the fact that YOUR SG's are special.

 

While I tend to agree with you about the beveling, I also have to concede the fact that if you want a certain spec of a certain year or period, you are going to have to get a reissue. We SHOULD expect reissues to be true to the original, and the more true to original, the more effort put into it, and thus, the more money.

 

Thusly, a '61 reissue should have the beveling/taper of a typical '61, and a '64 reissue should be like a '64. I understand them to be different in this regard?

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Yes, Stein, I AM grateful, for what I have now! They're Great! Not actually "Historic,"

as they have Nashville bridges, Chrome plated hardware (instead of Nickel plated), and

slightly different headstock "flaring." But, I've seen CS versions, that aren't all that

accurate, either. So...???

 

As with any "reissue," the exact "spec's" will vary, a bit. Even as the originals did.

So, depending on what original they use, as a "blueprint," those variances will continue,

even within the same model year.

 

I was recently "amused," that Gibson is now touting the newer "Historic's" as NOW being

"True Historic!" Does that mean the previous one's, weren't! [razz] And, were merely falsely

advertised as being "Historic," to jack up the prices?! LOL (Probably less humorous,

to those that bought the previous batches. [unsure] ) Still, "True Historic" or not...

a "reissue" is a reissue, and still prone to all the variances, of the originals, and

possibly more. :rolleyes:[razz]

 

Still, they're ALL wonderful guitars, in their own right! [thumbup][biggrin]

 

Cheers,

 

CB

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Yeah, it's all what you're used to, or prefer, for sure! I grew up with, and learned on, the early '60's versions!

So, those will always be my favorite specs, regarding "beveling" and horn tapering.

 

CB

 

Yes, 60's SG's have a very special vibe to them for sure and really were the classics. Btw CB, on a slightly different subject, but still SG, I've been meaning to ask you a question about your Kirk Douglas SG which you've posted pictures of in the past. I myself have a few SG's as you may have seen on the older 'Show us your SG' thread and one of them is also a Kirk Douglas. I have found on mine, when in the treble position with the TogPot on full there is a noticeable reduction in volume between Rhythm & Treble pickups, however, if I roll the TogPot down a little the volume increases. Now this seems very odd to me and I've been meaning to take it to a tech to have a look at the wiring. Also, it really dips in output and volume if I turn the togpot all the way down on the treble position but with master volume at full and seems to be at the maximum output at about 7 (if the togpot had markers). Have you found anything like this happening on yours? I bought the guitar new, but because I play a lot of jazz I tend to use the rhythm pickup the most, hence not having it looked at yet. Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks.

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Yes, 60's SG's have a very special vibe to them for sure and really were the classics. Btw CB, on a slightly different subject, but still SG, I've been meaning to ask you a question about your Kirk Douglas SG which you've posted pictures of in the past. I myself have a few SG's as you may have seen on the older 'Show us your SG' thread and one of them is also a Kirk Douglas. I have found on mine, when in the treble position with the TogPot on full there is a noticeable reduction in volume between Rhythm & Treble pickups, however, if I roll the TogPot down a little the volume increases. Now this seems very odd to me and I've been meaning to take it to a tech to have a look at the wiring. Also, it really dips in output and volume if I turn the togpot all the way down on the treble position but with master volume at full and seems to be at the maximum output at about 7 (if the togpot had markers). Have you found anything like this happening on yours? I bought the guitar new, but because I play a lot of jazz I tend to use the rhythm pickup the most, hence not having it looked at yet. Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks.

 

 

Hi Cody..

I haven't experienced any appreciable volume drops, in any position on the Tog Pot. What is quite evident (and purposely so) is the tone

variances, and it may be that when the treble is reduced, it seems like a volume drop, as it's much less "bright." But, I get THAT sort of

variance, with all my guitars. So, I'm not sure what's going on, with your's??? :-k[unsure]

 

Let me know, what you find out IF/When you have it looked at. I.E. Is this something I need to watch out for, in the future, etc.? [scared]

 

CB

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Hi Cody..

I haven't experienced any appreciable volume drops, in any position on the Tog Pot. What is quite evident (and purposely so) is the tone

variances, and it may be that when the treble is reduced, it seems like a volume drop, as it's much less "bright." But, I get THAT sort of

variance, with all my guitars. So, I'm not sure what's going on, with your's??? :-k[unsure]

 

Let me know, what you find out IF/When you have it looked at. I.E. Is this something I need to watch out for, in the future, etc.? [scared]

 

CB

 

Thank you very much for your reply CB. Hmmm, I think it must just be mine that has this problem in that case. It's definitely to do with the output and not a tonal thing. Adjusting the pickup heights didn't help when I tried that either. It was like it when I got it and I guess I really should have notified the store I bought it from about it at the time, but for some reason I didn't. I don't think you have anything to worry about with yours as it's not a problem that has developed on mine over time. I imagine it's probably that someone at Gibson didn't wire it quite right, or something came loose in transit on the way from the US to over here in the UK.

 

Anyway, thanks again and I will certainly get it looked at some point as I do love the guitar very much, but I live in a small town quite far from the nearest guitar store with a repair guy so it could be a while in the future!

 

PS, sorry to go off topic...back to beveling talk now [smile]

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Yes, 60's SG's have a very special vibe to them for sure and really were the classics. Btw CB, on a slightly different subject, but still SG, I've been meaning to ask you a question about your Kirk Douglas SG which you've posted pictures of in the past. I myself have a few SG's as you may have seen on the older 'Show us your SG' thread and one of them is also a Kirk Douglas. I have found on mine, when in the treble position with the TogPot on full there is a noticeable reduction in volume between Rhythm & Treble pickups, however, if I roll the TogPot down a little the volume increases. Now this seems very odd to me and I've been meaning to take it to a tech to have a look at the wiring. Also, it really dips in output and volume if I turn the togpot all the way down on the treble position but with master volume at full and seems to be at the maximum output at about 7 (if the togpot had markers). Have you found anything like this happening on yours? I bought the guitar new, but because I play a lot of jazz I tend to use the rhythm pickup the most, hence not having it looked at yet. Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks.

I don't know what exactly you mean saying master volume. Do you mean the treble pickup volume?

 

I just checked for that on my SG Supra featuring the basically same circuit but with one tone control only and, sadly, without the coil split options for neck and bridge pickup. There is definitely a substantial change in tone, but not in volume. There is also no such thing as a volume maximum at tog pot position 7 or similar.

 

How are volume and tone using both neck and bridge pickup at full volumes with the middle pickup's tog pot turned down completely? If this sounds as it should, my guess would be that both neck and bridge pickup are wired reversed polarity aka "out of phase". I assume the middle pickup has a braided wire and thus can't be wired the other way round.

 

The '57 Classics of my SG Supra have all braided wiring, so polarity can't be swapped inadvertently.

 

 

...

PS, sorry to go off topic...back to beveling talk now [smile]

I think it is important enough to go off-topic for.

 

Just a tip: It could be helpful to post pictures of the wirings of your and CB's Captain SG's. Perhaps they may offer clues through showing where the wires of particular colours are soldered to.

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Unfortunately, for me, I have no "digital" camera (or smart phone), presently, to take any photos, of my wiring.

And, the nearest "film" processing lab, is in Wichita (100 miles away), so it's not very realistic, or convenient,

to shoot film. One of the "downsides," to living in "the sticks!" [tongue][biggrin]

 

CB

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... One of the "downsides," to living in "the sticks!" [tongue][biggrin]

 

CB

Well, I do that, too. Internet via cable is not possible here. Any reasonable bandwidth calls for wireless. Including electromagnetic pollution, of course. [unsure]

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I don't know what exactly you mean saying master volume. Do you mean the treble pickup volume?

 

I just checked for that on my SG Supra featuring the basically same circuit but with one tone control only and, sadly, without the coil split options for neck and bridge pickup. There is definitely a substantial change in tone, but not in volume. There is also no such thing as a volume maximum at tog pot position 7 or similar.

 

How are volume and tone using both neck and bridge pickup at full volumes with the middle pickup's tog pot turned down completely? If this sounds as it should, my guess would be that both neck and bridge pickup are wired reversed polarity aka "out of phase". I assume the middle pickup has a braided wire and thus can't be wired the other way round.

 

The '57 Classics of my SG Supra have all braided wiring, so polarity can't be swapped inadvertently.

 

 

 

I think it is important enough to go off-topic for.

 

Just a tip: It could be helpful to post pictures of the wirings of your and CB's Captain SG's. Perhaps they may offer clues through showing where the wires of particular colours are soldered to.

 

Hi Capmaster. Thanks for your input and sorry I didn't describe the problem very well to begin with (I was on the last few hours of a nightshift when I wrote it, so I think my brain wasn't working as it should!).

 

Yes, I did mean the bridge pickup volume when I said 'master volume' and also I got the togpot and bridge volume problem the wrong way round! What I meant to say was, when the togpot is fully on using the bridge pickup, if I roll the bridge volume control back a little (to about 7-9), the volume actually increases a little and this is what I found strange. Alongside this, the lack of power when using the bridge pickup with the togpot rolled all the way off is also unusual. My other SG's retain a full sound when using the bridge pickup, but there is a definite lack of power/ output on my Kirk Douglas for some reason. Should I take a picture of the wirings for you to have a look at even though CB doesn't have access to a camera to take a picture of his?

 

Oh...and I just tried the guitar with the togpot rolled off in middle position and it sounds as it should. It loses a fair bit of the output/ full sound only when on the bridge pickup with the togpot off...

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Hi Capmaster. Thanks for your input and sorry I didn't describe the problem very well to begin with (I was on the last few hours of a nightshift when I wrote it, so I think my brain wasn't working as it should!).

 

Yes, I did mean the bridge pickup volume when I said 'master volume' and also I got the togpot and bridge volume problem the wrong way round! What I meant to say was, when the togpot is fully on using the bridge pickup, if I roll the bridge volume control back a little (to about 7-9), the volume actually increases a little and this is what I found strange. Alongside this, the lack of power when using the bridge pickup with the togpot rolled all the way off is also unusual. My other SG's retain a full sound when using the bridge pickup, but there is a definite lack of power/ output on my Kirk Douglas for some reason. Should I take a picture of the wirings for you to have a look at even though CB doesn't have access to a camera to take a picture of his?

 

Oh...and I just tried the guitar with the togpot rolled off in middle position and it sounds as it should. It loses a fair bit of the output/ full sound only when on the bridge pickup with the togpot off...

First and most important, I think everything is fine with your Captain SG, Cody. [thumbup]

 

This is exactly the behaviour of my SG Supra. Considering all the facts, it seems normal to me. All the three pickups are '57 Classics, meaning that the bridge pickup has less volume due to its position where it is facing less string amplitude. The rest is a consequence of the circuit design.

 

I hope I manage giving an understandable explanation now.

 

Neck and bridge pickup are connected to the hot legs of their volume and tone pots while the middle pickup's output is fed to the center tap of the tog pot. Having no switch of its own, this is the only way it can be done, widely spread on bass guitars. Given the tog pot is fully open and the switch is in Treble position, the middle pickup will be connected to the treble pickup volume pot's center tap. With the treble pickup volume fully raised, the sound of both the pickups in parallel will be produced. As soon as the treble pickup volume is lowered, two processes will interact: The treble pickup's volume will be attenuated progressively, but the middle pickup's signal will suffer the increasing load of the treble pickup's volume pot. So it becomes louder until its resonance is cut more and more. Finally, the treble volume pot will short out the middle pickup's signal completely.

 

Same will happen with the neck pickup/middle pickup combination, too, but it will be less apparent due to the neck pickup's higher output, compared to the bridge pickup.

 

I hope this will ease your mind. No reason to worry about it.

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First and most important, I think everything is fine with your Captain SG, Cody. [thumbup]

 

This is exactly the behaviour of my SG Supra. Considering all the facts, it seems normal to me. All the three pickups are '57 Classics, meaning that the bridge pickup has less volume due to its position where it is facing less string amplitude. The rest is a consequence of the circuit design.

 

I hope I manage giving an understandable explanation now.

 

Neck and bridge pickup are connected to the hot legs of their volume and tone pots while the middle pickup's output is fed to the center tap of the tog pot. Having no switch of its own, this is the only way it can be done, widely spread on bass guitars. Given the tog pot is fully open and the switch is in Treble position, the middle pickup will be connected to the treble pickup volume pot's center tap. With the treble pickup volume fully raised, the sound of both the pickups in parallel will be produced. As soon as the treble pickup volume is lowered, two processes will interact: The treble pickup's volume will be attenuated progressively, but the middle pickup's signal will suffer the increasing load of the treble pickup's volume pot. So it becomes louder until its resonance is cut more and more. Finally, the treble volume pot will short out the middle pickup's signal completely.

 

Same will happen with the neck pickup/middle pickup combination, too, but it will be less apparent due to the neck pickup's higher output, compared to the bridge pickup.

 

I hope this will ease your mind. No reason to worry about it.

 

Hi Cap. That all makes sense and eases my mind thanks [thumbup] It's good to know your SG Supra behaves the same, because it's sometimes difficult to know if there is a problem or not without a comparison to another instrument with the togpot/ 3 pickup configuration. I own 2 other Gibson's with 3 pickups that don't suffer from the reduced output, but they don't have a togpot in the equation and your explanation makes sense as to how the togpot interacts in the circuit. I hadn't really thought too much about the implications of the circuit with the three pickups plus togpot on the bridge pickup when isolated alone. The guitar is great, but I do miss the treble pickup sound that my other Gibson's have sometimes, but then it's such a unique guitar tonally I guess something has to be sacrificed a little [smile]

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I feel better.

 

Now, if you can ease CB's mind about the bevels....

I don't even have an SG (too small for me), but still I am a little concerned.

 

LOL! Well...Admittedly, I'm a bit "fanatic," about the kind of SG beveling and horn tapering, that "I" like.

But, I fully realize, that a lot of folks "couldn't care less," about it, and that some other's may tend to

feel the same way I do. But, it's just what I knew, and loved about SG's originally. Anything less, or

different, just looks and feels "not quite right" to me. But, again, that's just Me!

[tongue][biggrin]

 

CB

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My guess is they cheaped out and got rid of the deep bevels, got rid of the hardshell case in place for a gig bag, etc. and just made the standards less impressive so people would shell out for the higher end and RI models. The previous 2013 Standard was probably the BEST value SG Standard they've produced in a long time. VERY similar specs as a '62 RI, in fact too close to warrant making the two guitars that were so similar (but not identical) in specs that varied so much in price. I snatched up a '13 Standard for something like $870 brand new when they were blowing them out to make room for the 2014's. Really glad I jumped on that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

LOL! Well...Admittedly, I'm a bit "fanatic," about the kind of SG beveling and horn tapering, that "I" like.

But, I fully realize, that a lot of folks "couldn't care less," about it, and that some other's may tend to

feel the same way I do. But, it's just what I knew, and loved about SG's originally. Anything less, or

different, just looks and feels "not quite right" to me. But, again, that's just Me!

[tongue][biggrin]

 

CB

 

CB, you brought the "bevel" issue to my attention a few years ago... up to that point, I was fairly clueless on the subject.

 

My old '91 Standard has the nearly-non-existent beveling, while my '13 '50s Tribute has the deep, exaggerated beveling. Not sure if I have a preference, but I must admit—since you raised the point for me—I kind'a like the beveling. Looks more "authentic" to me.

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