Les Paul Traditional to 59 conversion

[Jsinicropi]

Who has information about who does the best Les Paul Traditional to 59 conversions. I've seen many out there.

 

Tom Dolye appears to be doing them now as well as some others.

 

I'm very much considering doing a killer conversion with an ABR-1 bridge and some relicing.

 

This who konw, please chime in!

[capmaster]

Relicing will bring down this guitar's value dramatically, and every other non-reversible modification will do that, too.

[Jsinicropi]

Relicing will bring down this guitar's value dramatically, and every other non-reversible modification will do that, too.

 

I don't plan on re selling this one. I've already done some modifications. That's not an issue to me. But thanks!

[stein]

Not sure what making a '59 from a Traditional entails, or what you are looking to achieve.

 

The only real difference I can think of would be the bridge, but that would mean taking the Nashville studs out and filling with wood to actually have an ABR-1. Of corse, you could just get a drop-in that's compatible.

 

What else is there?

[charlie brown]

Why not just play the 'ell out of it, and give it it's own mojo/relic's, by doing so?

 

It won't be a '59, even if you do the conversion. They're all gone, collected, lost, stolen, whatever.

 

Just play it!

 

 

CB

[Jsinicropi]

Why not just play the 'ell out of it, and give it it's own mojo/relic's, by doing so?

 

It won't be a '59, even if you do the conversion. They're all gone, collected, lost, stolen, whatever.

 

Just play it!

 

 

CB

 

Well... I've played many Les Pauls as I was a former GC Platinum salesman. I know the differences between historic types or custom shop guitars that have an ABR1 style bridge as well as a different top radius and neck joint. That I can't change. However the electronics and the "right" setup and fret dressing is key.

 

Mostly all Nashville USA Gibson electronics, aside from the pickups are not USA made.

 

There is something to be said about the correct wiring, wires. pots, caps and little details that make a guitar and Les Paul special.

 

The Traditionals are the only USA LP guitars that have a solid unchambered or weight relief and with a 50's neck. The only other guitars like this are from the custom shop.

[1all's Pub]

Well... I've played many Les Pauls as I was a former GC Platinum salesman. I know the differences between historic types or custom shop guitars that have an ABR1 style bridge as well as a different top radius and neck joint. That I can't change. However the electronics and the "right" setup and fret dressing is key.

 

Mostly all Nashville USA Gibson electronics, aside from the pickups are not USA made.

 

There is something to be said about the correct wiring, wires. pots, caps and little details that make a guitar and Les Paul special.

 

The Traditionals are the only USA LP guitars that have a solid unchambered or weight relief and with a 50's neck. The only other guitars like this are from the custom shop.

 

Traditionals were only "non-weight relieved" in 2013, 2014 & 2015. 2008-2012 and now 2016 Traditionals have "traditional weight relief" (ie, 9 Swiss cheese holes).

[pippy]

Historic Makeovers.

http://historicmakeovers.com/

 

FWIW & IMHO if you get the job done 'right' then the value of the guitar will actually increase.

For those who doubt me just have a look at those LPs refin'd by Dave Johnson for Mark's Guitar Loft such as this one;

http://www.marksguit....php?id=97332DJ

Whereas the regular R-I's go for around the $4k mark these babies generally go for around $8.5k (as here).

Furthermore the market for these conversions is keen.

 

Sadly Dave Johnson no longer offers his services to the general public having entered into an exclusive partnership with Mark.

 

Pip.

[capmaster]

Historic Makeovers.

http://historicmakeovers.com/

 

FWIW & IMHO if you get the job done 'right' then the value of the guitar will actually increase.

For those who doubt me just have a look at those LPs refin'd by Dave Johnson for Mark's Guitar Loft such as this one;

http://www.marksguit....php?id=97332DJ

Whereas the regular R-I's go for around the $4k mark these babies generally go for around $8.5k (as here).

Furthermore the market for these conversions is keen.

 

Sadly Dave Johnson no longer offers his services to the general public having entered into an exclusive partnership with Mark.

 

Pip.

Looks to me that they use RIs for further mods, not Traditionals. Although the mahogany species remains incorrect, they replace the fretboard with one of Brazilian rosewood. Legal supplies may cost dearly. The wood has to be in stock since before 1992 when international trade has been prohibited.

 

Putting wood plugs into the holes drilled for the Nashville T-O-M's bushings won't increase value, too.

 

But as you mentioned, the market is keen.

[pippy]

Yes, Cap, mostly all of the conversions I've seen are from R-I's. I'm pretty sure, though, if a customer supplied a Trad for the treatment then the company approached would do what they could. After all; Money is Money whether it's for an R9 or a Trad. conversion. Other than the bridge bushings what else is different?

As far as plugging the Nash' holes the owner could simply use the Callaham Nash - ABR-1 conversion set instead. Not Historically accurate, of course, but no-one but the owner would know the difference.

 

Surprisingly, perhaps, Braz fingerboard blanks aren't that hard to find. I've just googled it and the very first site has them offered for 36 Euros and the likes of Dave Johnson and Kim LaFleur (Kim is the man behind Historic Makeovers seen in my previous link) seem to be able to get hold of them easily enough. OK; 36 Euros is six times the price of an Indian Rosewood fingerboard blank but when we're talking about a $2,500 to $4,000 makeover what's an extra $30 or so?

 

Pip.

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

If I would want that kind of look, I would do it myself.

I don't think it's that difficult.

I would opt for an conversion bridge.

Wiring is an easy fix.

And well, in my case the hardest thing to do would be to change the fretboard. But only because of the 120th anniversary inlay.

Finish? Can be wet-sanded and misstreated to look "right".

Plastics and hardware can be bought aged if you can't do it.

 

I like the looks but wouldn't do it.

 

Personally I opted for 50's wiring with Luxe bee's because I wanted to know the difference to modern wiring. Changed the plastics because of the funny stock colours and the rings didn't look right.

And of course all in nickel, but that's because I prefere the looks over chrome.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a reissue than "convert" a trad. It will always have a heavy body blank too, can't take that away.

 

What has a fret dress and set up got to do with being a 59-a-like? Are they different?

 

I'm all for relicing, just can't see why you would pay all that money for a makeover when it still won't be as close as a reissue. If you bought a reissue and got that done I could understand it.

[IanHenry]

Maybe this is what you need:

 

https://www.youtube.com/feed/subscriptions

 

Don't know why the video itself doesn't show

 

Very nice if you've got £8000 to spare (I think that's roughly $12000)

 

Ian

[capmaster]

Yes, Cap, mostly all of the conversions I've seen are from R-I's. I'm pretty sure, though, if a customer supplied a Trad for the treatment then the company approached would do what they could. After all; Money is Money whether it's for an R9 or a Trad. conversion. Other than the bridge bushings what else is different?

As far as plugging the Nash' holes the owner could simply use the Callaham Nash - ABR-1 conversion set instead. Not Historically accurate, of course, but no-one but the owner would know the difference.

 

Surprisingly, perhaps, Braz fingerboard blanks aren't that hard to find. I've just googled it and the very first site has them offered for 36 Euros and the likes of Dave Johnson and Kim LaFleur (Kim is the man behind Historic Makeovers seen in my previous link) seem to be able to get hold of them easily enough. OK; 36 Euros is six times the price of an Indian Rosewood fingerboard blank but when we're talking about a $2,500 to $4,000 makeover what's an extra $30 or so?

 

Pip.

This is really taking me by surprise. Investing €36 seems very reasonable in that context.

 

Of course, if one wants that mods, why not? Just not my cup of tea. Moreover, the nickel-plated parts on one Gibson and Epiphone LP of mine each look very old after a few dozens of playing hours - chrome platings look like new after thousands of hours playing and dripping beads of sweat on them.

[charlie brown]

Just PLAY it!!

 

 

CB

[Jsinicropi]

Finding "The" Les Paul that has the mojo for you is hard to find. I played many Les Pauls, USA models as well as Custom Shop ones. RI series even at my cost as a former GC employee at the time for a 58 or 59 was stil over $4200.

 

The Traditional cost me about $1300 and I had returned one before which I purchased then played this one and said ahhh... this is the one.

 

I do hear a tonal difference in historic series. They are very different than the rest of the Les Pauls

 

They have a shallower dish carve thus the higher pickup rings. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

They have the ABR-1 style bridge - good ones have a super light aluminum stop tailpiece and are all nickel not chrome. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

I've been told the ABR-1 style bridges have more wood contact than the Nashville style. I maybe wrong.

The head stocks have a real Holly veneer instead of plastic. These is the black overlay which says Gibson at the top. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

The RI series have thinner binding and nitro

They also have a long neck tenon while all other have a short tenon. Some had a mid neck tenon

The wood selection on most of the RI series is also lighter and more resonant. My understanding from one of the Gibson reps is this. The mahogany used for the lighter guitars comes from the top of the hill and other heavier wood comes from the trees at the bottom of the hill. As it rains, minerals flow down mountains and end up in the root network of those trees and tends to make them heavier, and cheaper as they don't have to pay for the fuel and extra work to get the heavy equipment to the top of the mountain to get those trees.

 

Can you make a USA Gibson a Custom shop. No, but can you do few things to it to get it to have the essence in tone to the RI series...

Historic makeovers does do the same process for traditionals as they do RI series and it's the same cost. Part of the reason they can use the Traditional series, those which are solid and not weight relieved or chambered have the same bones as the RI bodies and necks aside from the tenon.

 

Removing some of the finish and putting in the correct pickups and eletronics is also key to making "it" sound old. Sure you can get all the parts. But if you don't have the talents like myself in doing it, you need to have someone that knows this trade to do it right. They are called luthiers for a reason and good ones are paid well for it.

 

I don't care about resell value as I don't plan on selling. I plan on playing it which I do. It's a year old and has some wear and tear already but doesnt quite yet have THAT sound. The wires inside the stock USA models is basically phone line wire. Not era correct. There are also many different caps and pots and bla bla bla...

 

Tons of stuff here. I've need told the main thing that really helps determine the TONE is the finish. Less finish, more tone. Less impedance, more tone.

 

I've seen a couple Traditional conversions, one by Bill Nash,http://www.kaosmusiccentre.com/the-kaos-blog/new-old-gibson-les-paul

and one by Tom Doyle https://www.facebook.com/DoyleCoils/?fref=ts

 

I'm hoping someone out there has some info on this and can chime in. I know the store manager at Kaos Music and he said Nash doesnt' do conversions for private party, however this one does sound better now and is amazing.

 

Thanks guys!

[Glauco]

Traditionals were only "non-weight relieved" in 2013, 2014 & 2015. 2008-2012 and now 2016 Traditionals have "traditional weight relief" (ie, 9 Swiss cheese holes).

true

[Jsinicropi]

true

 

 

Yes that is true.

[rct]

Finding "The" Les Paul that has the mojo for you is hard to find. I played many Les Pauls, USA models as well as Custom Shop ones. RI series even at my cost as a former GC employee at the time for a 58 or 59 was stil over $4200.

 

The Traditional cost me about $1300 and I had returned one before which I purchased then played this one and said ahhh... this is the one.

 

I do hear a tonal difference in historic series. They are very different than the rest of the Les Pauls

 

They have a shallower dish carve thus the higher pickup rings. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

They have the ABR-1 style bridge - good ones have a super light aluminum stop tailpiece and are all nickel not chrome. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

I've been told the ABR-1 style bridges have more wood contact than the Nashville style. I maybe wrong.

The head stocks have a real Holly veneer instead of plastic. These is the black overlay which says Gibson at the top. Does this affect the tone? Maybe

The RI series have thinner binding and nitro

They also have a long neck tenon while all other have a short tenon. Some had a mid neck tenon

The wood selection on most of the RI series is also lighter and more resonant. My understanding from one of the Gibson reps is this. The mahogany used for the lighter guitars comes from the top of the hill and other heavier wood comes from the trees at the bottom of the hill. As it rains, minerals flow down mountains and end up in the root network of those trees and tends to make them heavier, and cheaper as they don't have to pay for the fuel and extra work to get the heavy equipment to the top of the mountain to get those trees.

 

Can you make a USA Gibson a Custom shop. No, but can you do few things to it to get it to have the essence in tone to the RI series...

Historic makeovers does do the same process for traditionals as they do RI series and it's the same cost. Part of the reason they can use the Traditional series, those which are solid and not weight relieved or chambered have the same bones as the RI bodies and necks aside from the tenon.

 

Removing some of the finish and putting in the correct pickups and eletronics is also key to making "it" sound old. Sure you can get all the parts. But if you don't have the talents like myself in doing it, you need to have someone that knows this trade to do it right. They are called luthiers for a reason and good ones are paid well for it.

 

I don't care about resell value as I don't plan on selling. I plan on playing it which I do. It's a year old and has some wear and tear already but doesnt quite yet have THAT sound. The wires inside the stock USA models is basically phone line wire. Not era correct. There are also many different caps and pots and bla bla bla...

 

Tons of stuff here. I've need told the main thing that really helps determine the TONE is the finish. Less finish, more tone. Less impedance, more tone.

 

I've seen a couple Traditional conversions, one by Bill Nash,http://www.kaosmusiccentre.com/the-kaos-blog/new-old-gibson-les-paul

and one by Tom Doyle https://www.facebook.com/DoyleCoils/?fref=ts

 

I'm hoping someone out there has some info on this and can chime in. I know the store manager at Kaos Music and he said Nash doesnt' do conversions for private party, however this one does sound better now and is amazing.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Decent Les Pauls into decent amps at decent gains and volumes played by a fairly well rehearsed and experience guitar player all sound the same: Great. The 59 and 58 and blah blah RI and R12 and RI67 and blah blah blah is all just Feel Good stuff. If you can play, you can play any of them and sound like a guitar player using a Les Paul. That's all that matters. The recorder doesn't know what parts are on it and the listener doesn't care.

 

rct

[capmaster]

Decent Les Pauls into decent amps at decent gains and volumes played by a fairly well rehearsed and experience guitar player all sound the same: Great. The 59 and 58 and blah blah RI and R12 and RI67 and blah blah blah is all just Feel Good stuff. If you can play, you can play any of them and sound like a guitar player using a Les Paul. That's all that matters. The recorder doesn't know what parts are on it and the listener doesn't care.

 

rct

+++1 Very well stated!

[Chuck S]

I have to wonder why some want the older model guitars. What makes them so special? Is it the Guitar or is it the sound the player makes it produce? I would bet Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Clay or any of the greats could pick up any Guitar and make it an automatic chase Guitar because of the way they made it sound. Why would any of us want to sound like they did? Amazing to me. People will spend months trying to mimic and play another artists music and spend all kinds of money in order to chase their sound rather than produce their own. Spend 15K or better for that authentic remake...but owing it doesn't give you or me the skills to make it talk. Unless you are simply a collector of art...then I get it, but I'd rather hear it sing than see it stuck on a wall or in its case collecting dust.

[IanHenry]

I have to wonder why some want the older model guitars. What makes them so special? Is it the Guitar or is it the sound the player makes it produce? I would bet Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Clay or any of the greats could pick up any Guitar and make it an automatic chase Guitar because of the way they made it sound. Why would any of us want to sound like they did? Amazing to me. People will spend months trying to mimic and play another artists music and spend all kinds of money in order to chase their sound rather than produce their own. Spend 15K or better for that authentic remake...but owing it doesn't give you or me the skills to make it talk. Unless you are simply a collector of art...then I get it, but I'd rather hear it sing than see it stuck on a wall or in its case collecting dust.

 

Yes, I've been trying to sound like Peter Green but can't! I think there must be something wrong with my guitar :) Seriously when Clapton, Green etc were producing their best work (in my opinion) the guitars they were using weren't really that old, it would be like someone today using a 94-95 Les Paul. I'm thinking that the biggest difference is in the way the wood was seasoned and dried. Also as has been previously alluded too, most people don't notice or care about your tone, it's either excitable or it grates on their nerves. To quote my wife "one guitar sounds the same as another to her", the only time that She's commented on a guitar sounding great was when I played a J-15 in the Gibson showroom. Nobody cares, only guitar players.

 

Ian

[pippy]

Seriously when Clapton, Green etc were producing their best work...the guitars they were using weren't really that old, it would be like someone today using a 94-95 Les Paul.

Not even as old as that, Ian.

 

It's generally accepted that the 'Beano' LP was either a late '59 or early '60 and we know PG's was a '59.

Clapton's work with Mayall was recorded in March 1966 and Green's debut with Mayall (A Hard Road) was recorded in Nov 1966 so when these seminal works were recorded both players' guitars were, say, 7 years old.

By the end of 1970 Green had finished with Fleetwood Mac and Clapton had gone over to Fender (Derek & the Dominos) so we're talking about 11 years as a maximum age.

As we can see this means that these players were using the equivalent of a 2004 - 2008 guitar today...

 

Mike Bloomfield and the 'Super Sessions'? - 1968. His LP was 9-y-o.

If we go back earlier to the tone/album which made Clapton want a Les Paul in the first place it was Freddie King playing a '53 G-T on his 1961 LP 'Let's Hide Away & Dance Away'. Hence 8-y-o.

 

My own quartet of LPs are now 20, 20, 22 & 24 years old.

Does this mean I sound like Clapton or Green?

Well, of course not. My guitars are clearly too old.

 

Pip.

[IanHenry]

Not even as old as that, Ian.

 

It's generally accepted that the 'Beano' LP was either a late '59 or early '60 and we know PG's was a '59.

Clapton's work with Mayall was recorded in March 1966 and Green's debut with Mayall (A Hard Road) was recorded in Nov 1966 so when these seminal works were recorded both players' guitars were, say, 7 years old.

By the end of 1970 Green had finished with Fleetwood Mac and Clapton had gone over to Fenders (Derek & the Dominoes) so we're talking about 11 years as a maximum age.

As we can see this means that these players were using the equivalent of a 2004 - 2008 guitar today...

 

Mike Bloomfield and the 'Super Sessions'? - 1968. His LP was 9-y-o.

If we go back earlier to the tone/album which made Clapton want a Les Paul in the first place it was Freddie King playing a '53 G-T on his 1961 LP 'Let's Hide Away & Dance Away'. Hence 8-y-o.

 

My own quartet of LPs are now 20, 20, 22 & 24 years old.

Does this mean I sound like Clapton or Green?

Well, of course not. My guitars are clearly too old.

 

Pip.

 

Great Pippy,

One of my Les Paul's is a 2008!......................................I still don't sound like Peter Green, it must be broken :)

 

 

Ian

[Jsinicropi]

In my opinion, the reason those guitars of that era sounded that way had much to do with the construction techniques, parts used, better wiring, better detail work and I believe the finish had alot to do with it.

 

All these guitars had ABR1 bridges, hide glue, aniline dyes, pull back wiring, awesome pots and of course the PAF's... the longer neck tenons, and those fat 50's necks.

 

By doing some correct "finish" work on guitar, not a refin, but taking some of it off? I think gets things closer to that woody tone.

 

Also I'm sure the environmental changes may have affected the trees, who knows.

 

I do know there are many success stories in making the solid body Traditionals sound closer to the historics by doing a few things.