Angie .. is it in key of Am or C ?

[BobF_]

It's all about what we're accustomed to seeing. The below (which I think is accurate) shows the sequence in both C Major and A Minor. In both cases the E chord is altered from the norm from minor to major, as a dominant 7th. They both obviously sound the same as they are identical in practice.

 

To ME, a vi III7 V IV IV I ii I vi is more "normal" (whatever that means) than i V7 VII VI VI III iv III i. To be perfectly clear, I'm not claiming one is more correct than the other. This is more an interesting exercise in picking fly dung out of pepper - an exercise in exercising theory & representation. A stronger case might be made one way or the other by also examining the melody, but I'm not THAT interested or invested

 

C Major
Am  E7   G F  F  C Dm C Am E7   G F  F  C Dm C G Dm Am C F  G
vi  III7 V IV IV I ii I vi III7 V IV IV I ii I V ii vi I IV V	

A Minor
Am E7 G   F  F  C   Dm C   Am E7 G   F  F  C   Dm C   G   Dm Am C   F  G
i  V7 VII VI VI III iv III i  V7 VII VI VI III iv III VII iv i  III VI VII

[northcntryblues]

I think its in Am. There clearly are parts of the song that seem to "resolve" on the C chord, but they quickly 'descend' back down: C, to B, to Am - except for the end of the song, which stays on the C chord. But overall, the song has more of a minor key 'feel' than a major.

 

But in thinking about this again, I can also see how one could argue the fact that since the song continually seems to 'resolve' on the C chord, that it IS in the key of C.

 

So.....your guess is as good as mine!!

[MissouriPicker]

Entertaining thread. I've always considered it to be in Am, because it's a somber and melancholy song. There's a video somewhere on You Tube where Keith Richards talks about changing the position of just one finger throughout the entire song. Don't know if he was talking about lead guitar or rhythm. Anyways, "Angie" is one of those songs that fits easily into The Stones legend/mojo/lure. Here's a page that gives some perspective on the song. What the actual facts are----who knows? http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=560

[BobF_]

Whatever the key is - the tune is a classic. Ya gotta respect the Stones even if you don't love them.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "What are you views ?"

 

 

Musical Projects.

 

Like Musical Compositions.

 

Have a Beginning, a Middle and an Ending.

 

Music has a Spiritual Quality to its Life, so we could say that a Composition is Born, Lives and is Laid to Rest.

 

 

 

Maybe we could say it Dies, but perhaps that would depend upon who was Playing?

 

 

 

In what Key Signature was it Born?

 

The Key of C minor.

 

 

In what Key Signature did it Live?

 

The Key of C minor.

 

 

How was it Laid to Rest?

 

The Key of Eb Major.

 

Technically, it is Written in the Key of C Minor, but Finally "Resolves" to the Key of Eb Major, this is the correct way to understand this.

 

The Original Recording was done with a Capo on the Third Fret. I trust this has helped bring some greatly needed clarification to the Discussion.

 

 

 

Davey Grahams first Album "The Guitar Player" was Recorded to the Accompaniment of Drums.

 

 

 

 

 

The Drummer was my Old Pal, (and sadly) the late Bobby Graham (no relation) a Top Hit Session Drummer of The Sixties who Played on many of my Recording Productions and indeed whom I Extensively Toured with on Occasions.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/bobby-graham-session-drummer-who-played-on-around-15000-records-1791653.html

 

 

 

 

Here he is with a Solo. Lil Jim played Backing Guitar on this Session. Tony Meehan Produced.

 

 

 

 

Bob came from Edmonton London, Hit Session Drummer Clem Cattini lived round the corner.

 

Lil Jim, I and many others sometimes stayed overnight at Bobs. Neither Jim or I drive so travelling was always a bit of a bother, Bob would usually pick me up for work.

 

 

 

Lots of Good Memories in this Thread.

[jdgm]

 

I trust this has helped bring some greatly needed clarification to the Discussion.

 

Unfortunately not.

 

You seem to have confused the Davey Graham instrumental piece "Anji" with the Rolling Stones song "Angie", which is by Jagger/Richards and is on the album "Goats Head Soup".

 

This topic is about the latter song.

 

As you would know if you read through the whole thread.

[Cougar]

I'm thinking the key of a piece is the key it comes home to, not what it starts off with. Therefore, C.

 

Of course, C and Am triads share two out of their three notes.

[E-minor7]

You seem to have confused the Davey Graham instrumental piece "Anji" with the Rolling Stones song "Angie", which is by Jagger/Richards and is on the album "Goats Head Soup".

 

This topic is about the latter song.

 

As you would know if you read through the whole thread.

 

Of vital importance to get this straightened out.

 

Apart from that a good blossoming, in glimpses even beautiful thread.

 

Angie ? , , ,

 

she's hot in the key of Cool.

 

 

 

[splake]

I dont know hot she is or what key she's in, . All I can say is that she is a B*TCH to play. been working on that tune for some time now.

 

Ah to be able to make that Bird sing like Keef. -Pipe dream-

[MorrisrownSal]

Now I feel like Homer Simpson in chemistry class being taught in Mandarin.

[EuroAussie]

Now I feel like Homer Simpson in chemistry class being taught in Mandarin.

 

Ill simplify it for you Sal. Its a question whether you move one finger to the left or to the right.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote :"You seem to have confused the Davey Graham instrumental piece "Anji" with the Rolling Stones song "Angie", which is by Jagger/Richards and is on the album "Goats Head Soup"."

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote :" you would know if you read through the whole thread."

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Therefore to add verisimilitude to the authority of my statements.

 

Please explore the notation and tablature of the Sheet Music linked below from a Major Publisher accrediting Davey Graham.

 

 

Please check it out.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0113376

 

 

 

As it happens.

 

Next week my Niece is flying over from Ibiza, where she lives with her family in a Home owned by various members of the Family for the last 400 Years.

 

The elderly but restored and extended building is next door to recently married Jade Jaggers Villa home that she has lived in for Decades. (Noel Gallaher has a Villa the other side). I have included a picture of the view from the back of my nieces garden.

 

Obviously visiting Family Members from one Family bump into visiting Family Members from the other Family because its located in a Remote, very quiet area of the Island and Mick Jagger turns up quite a bit, and likes to have a drink in the Local, (as long as someone else is paying).

 

So in spite of your impassioned thoughts, expressed concerning this issue, in point of fact, it's not as if I am Totally Unaware of Mick Jaggers Existence, or of the one of the Best Songs he and his Pal Keith, wrote.

 

Here below, again from a Major Publisher of Sheet Music is the Mick Jagger and Keith Richards Song "Angie" which you will find is Written in the Key Signature of A Minor the Relative Minor Key of C Major.

 

 

 

Please like the link above Check it Out and compare them to each other.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0063584

 

 

 

So.

 

Actually.

 

I did Read the Whole Thread.

 

One of my Colleagues is a U.K. Authority on Sheet Music Publishing.

 

So I also bothered to check the Sheet Music Published, and actively accredited to the Artists Involved.

 

 

 

 

To Summarise.

 

And deal with the original question mooted by the thread.

 

However you spell it, Angi by Davey Graham is Written and Published in the Key Signature of C Minor, (note the Three Flats) and involves the use of a Capo.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0113376

 

 

 

Whereas.

 

Angie by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards

 

Is Written and Published in the Key Signature of A Minor.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0063584

 

 

 

 

But your too hasty post. Highly notable for..

 

Being Completely Incorrect in Many Details, does has a positive side.

 

It has given me, a Powerful Idea to Suggest to Mick for a New Name for a New Album Concept.

 

I think The Rolling Stones should Produce an Album in Celebration of the U.S. Government, the Admirable Gibson Guitar Company, and Fora in Particular.

 

 

 

 

Naming it "Sympathy for Henry".

 

 

 

 

Nowhere.

 

Does the original post.

 

State the Artist or Clearly Identify the Actual Song.

 

Davey Grahams work is regularly misspelt, predating the Rolling Stones work.

 

I trust this helpful explanation, has brought much needed clarification, to anyone previously confused.

 

 

 

I surely wouldn't want them to remain in that state, forever.

 

But has provided a most interesting thread.

 

Surely, what we all hope for.

 

 

Best Wishes to All!

 

 

img host

[flatbaroque]

Quote :"You seem to have confused the Davey Graham instrumental piece "Anji" with the Rolling Stones song "Angie", which is by Jagger/Richards and is on the album "Goats Head Soup"."

 

- Snipped for Shortness -

 

Quote :" you would know if you read through the whole thread."

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

Therefore to add verisimilitude to the authority of my statements.

 

Please explore the notation and tablature of the Sheet Music linked below from a Major Publisher accrediting Davey Graham.

 

 

Please check it out.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0113376

 

 

 

As it happens.

 

Next week my Niece is flying over from Ibiza, where she lives with her family in a Home owned by various members of the Family for the last 400 Years.

 

The elderly but restored and extended building is next door to recently married Jade Jaggers Villa home that she has lived in for Decades. (Noel Gallaher has a Villa the other side). I have included a picture of the view from the back of my nieces garden.

 

Obviously visiting Family Members from one Family bump into visiting Family Members from the other Family because its located in a Remote, very quiet area of the Island and Mick Jagger turns up quite a bit, and likes to have a drink in the Local, (as long as someone else is paying).

 

So in spite of your impassioned thoughts, expressed concerning this issue, in point of fact, it's not as if I am Totally Unaware of Mick Jaggers Existence, or of the one of the Best Songs he and his Pal Keith, wrote.

 

Here below, again from a Major Publisher of Sheet Music is the Mick Jagger and Keith Richards Song "Angie" which you will find is Written in the Key Signature of A Minor the Relative Minor Key of C Major.

 

 

 

Please like the link above Check it Out and compare them to each other.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0063584

 

 

 

So.

 

Actually.

 

I did Read the Whole Thread.

 

One of my Colleagues is a U.K. Authority on Sheet Music Publishing.

 

So I also bothered to check the Sheet Music Published, and actively accredited to the Artists Involved.

 

 

 

 

To Summarise.

 

And deal with the original question mooted by the thread.

 

However you spell it, Angi by Davey Graham is Written and Published in the Key Signature of C Minor, (note the Three Flats) and involves the use of a Capo.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0113376

 

 

 

Whereas.

 

Angie by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards

 

Is Written and Published in the Key Signature of A Minor.

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0063584

 

 

 

 

But your too hasty post. Highly notable for..

 

Being Completely Incorrect in Many Details, does has a positive side.

 

It has given me, a Powerful Idea to Suggest to Mick for a New Name for a New Album Concept.

 

I think The Rolling Stones should Produce an Album in Celebration of the U.S. Government, the Admirable Gibson Guitar Company, and Fora in Particular.

 

 

 

 

Naming it "Sympathy for Henry".

 

 

 

 

Nowhere.

 

Does the original post.

 

State the Artist or Clearly Identify the Actual Song.

 

Davey Grahams work is regularly misspelt, predating the Rolling Stones work.

 

I trust this helpful explanation, has brought much needed clarification, to anyone previously confused.

 

 

 

I surely wouldn't want them to remain in that state, forever.

 

But has provided a most interesting thread.

 

Surely, what we all hope for.

 

 

Best Wishes to All!

 

 

img host

[flatbaroque]

There is no shame in admitting you got something wrong Anthony.

[badbluesplayer]

C

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Two further points.

 

Entirely avoiding the inclusion of intentionally humorous content.

 

If you ever need to decide whether any Song is in a Major or Minor Key, and settling matters such as Key or Timing can be perplexing.

 

And so you feel somewhat confused about this because of the manner in which the Chord Sequences Move and "Resolve" themselves throughout the Progression of the Song.

 

Quite regardless of the Song involved, (and happily we've discussed two excellent examples in this thread), two good "rule of thumbs" to follow, are.. What is the "Fundamental" Note the Bassist will Play? And from a purely "Musical Theory" point of view, remember the Dominant 7th Chord relative to a Key Signature of C Major will be G7, whereas the Dominant 7th Chord relative to a Key Signature of A Minor will be E7.

 

So an easy way to discover or understand the "Dominant 7th" of a Key Signature is that it is the Note or Chord, that always takes you on to another Note or Chord, and makes you flow to the "Home" Key Signature. "That" will be your actual Key Signature.

 

The former rule of thumb gives a great Clue, the latter rule of thumb Nails It Absolutely as it usually includes a 7th.

 

It relates to the "Fifth" upwardly of whatever the True Signature Key is Actually Written In.

 

Therefore, there should be no confusion about this, at all, whatever.

 

The Dominant 7th Chord will always betray the Truth.

 

For they are Quite Different.

 

In Each Case.

 

 

 

 

Lot's of Happy Memories from this Thread!

[splake]

You lost me at "two further points".

 

I feel like I am in 2nd grade, struggling with my 2+2 flash cards whle Albert Einstein stands on the desk and explains nuclear fission. I wish I knew 1/10th of this theory. I wonder how much of this stuff, that Keef and Mick actually know. Or did they just pick up the Bird and riff. The best advice an old guitar player ever told me,,,, "Play what feels right, don't over think it, with time it will come". Then again, I suck, so what do I know.

[j45nick]

You lost me at "two further points".

 

I feel like I am in 2nd grade, struggling with my 2+2 flash cards whle Albert Einstein stands on the desk and explains nuclear fission. I wish I knew 1/10th of this theory. I wonder how much of this stuff, that Keef and Mick actually know. Or did they just pick up the Bird and riff. The best advice an old guitar player ever told me,,,, "Play what feels right, don't over think it, with time it will come". Then again, I suck, so what do I know.

 

 

Don't worry, splake. A lot of us are in exactly the same place you are, and it doesn't stop us from enjoying playing.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: " I wish I knew 1/10th of this theory."

 

 

 

Excellent.

 

It's good to deepen understanding.

 

When there are NO Sharps or Flats in the Notations Key Signature.

 

The Actual Home Key Signature could be C Major or A Minor, so how do we know which it is?

 

Well usually because of the Spiritual Mood of the Sound, does it Sound Positive and Happy or Sad and Deeply Serious? This is simplest and usually the Best Way to Decide.

 

Sometimes things can appear to be more complex than they really are because of the manner in which the Music Progresses, though sometimes they are more complex, but definitely, people do over think these things at times.

 

This is where having some Training in Theory does make a difference. But generalising a simple way to understand what is written above, is ask yourself this. When you play G7. After a while, do you find that eventually you feel like you want to Play a Chord of C Major next?

 

 

 

If so , the Dominant 7th Chord is G7 and the Key Signature is C Major.

 

 

 

Again, generalising a simple way to understand what is further written above, ask yourself this. When you play E7 (and there are no Sharps or Flats involved in the Key Signature), and for instance you are not playing Chords like A Major or other closely related Chords to A Major.

 

After a while, Playing E7 do you find that eventually you feel like you want to Play a Chord of A Minor next?

 

 

 

If so, the Dominant 7th Chord is E7 and the Key Signature is A Minor.

 

 

 

Many Players learn such things by Instinct, Intuition and Simply by what seems Musical to them.

 

However you understand this, either by means of Simple Trial and Error as to what "Feels" Right or by means of Studying and Training in Musical Theory, in general, the end result will usually be the same.

 

The Dominant Seventh Chord will in almost all cases, quite naturally lead your listening and learning ear to what your True Home Key Signature is. So it need not be difficult to understand if you genuinely want to comprehend, because this is "natural to the human ear".

 

 

 

 

Let's Summarise.

 

And Boil this right down.

 

 

 

If C Major is your Home Key.

 

G7th is the Dominant Seventh.

 

And F Major is the Subdominant.

 

 

 

If you can play the Three Chord Blues.

 

You already know the Home Key Signature.

 

The Subdominant Chord and Dominant Seventh.

 

 

 

And that, Quite Regardless of whatever Key you are Playing In.

 

 

So C, F and G7.

 

Or E, A and B7.

 

Or G, C and D7.

 

 

 

It's really completely that simple.

 

All these Chord sequences will probably be very familiar to you.

 

All what is meant by what is written above is just as G7 naturally leads your ear to C Major.

 

E7 naturally leads your ear to A Minor, as long as there are no Key Signature Sharps or Flats involved (for instance you are not Playing in the Key of A Major and using the Chords closely related to that Key Signature).

 

If it looks like it there's a possibility the Key Signature could possibly be C Major, but E7 is naturally leading your ear to take you to A Minor, and that is what "Feels" right, it's a very sure bet that your actual Home Key Signature is A Minor, and not C Major. Very Straightforward.

 

 

 

 

If you still struggle to grasp this.

 

Google "Learning to Play the Blue Chords" or "The Three Chord Trick".

 

Practise what you read there, your ear will gradually reveal you all you need to discover the Salient Point.

 

 

 

 

Quote: "I suck"

 

 

 

We all do at some point.

 

I was born at a very early age and did my thumb.

 

Possibly, you intended to convey the thought that you are not very accomplished?

 

Then Hours of Solid Practice is the only remedy, there is no shortcut, beyond perhaps Hiring a Good Guitar Tutor.

 

 

 

Good Luck!

 

 

 

Speaking of Tutors.

 

Here's a Blackboard, that the Albert you mentioned, left behind here in 1931.

 

There was another Blackboard as well, but some silly person used a Blackboard Rubber and Rubbed it out after the Lecture.

 

The last three lines give numerical values for the density (ρ), radius (P), and age of the universe. "L.J." on the blackboard indicates "light years" in German.

 

Albert didn't Play the Guitar, but he did Play the Violin, and a late Pal I regularly corresponded with Accompanied Albert on the Piano, whilst he entertained everyone with his Violin Playing.

 

 

[MorrisrownSal]

Now I feel Like Homer Simpson in Chemistry Class being taught in Mandarin underwater.

[blindboygrunt]

Hey aussie

Hope you're happy

[Pittgibson45]

I remember a special that aired on PBS presumably in 1987. The title was Sgt. Pepper, it was 20 years ago today, where they examined the album, the era, and the influence of Sgt Pepper. They took apart songs like She's Leaving Home and examined them from a music theory standpoint. The experts were amazed how technically sound the Beatles song writing was accidentally. They wrote what sounded good. Sure they had some idea on theory and some smart people around them, like George Martin, but they were a rock band that wrote songs that sounded good. No need to over think Rock N' Roll.

[stein]

While we are having fun trying to decide Am or C, and also the value of knowing theory vs not, these are all good things. But we forgot something.

 

What key it's in COULD be completely from the musicians point of view.

 

If a player chooses to consider it in the key of C, and play it accordingly, he still plays it. He may or may not play it the same as if he was coming from a point of playing it in Am. The chords and notes may be the same, but how and why he comes up with them, what he adds or changes, depends on the one playing it.

 

Same thing if a guy chooses to know theory, or rely entirely on his ear. NOT knowing theory doesn't mean music theory doesn't exist, just as knowing theory doesn't mean one doesn't use the ear. Just the same, the understanding and approach of the one playing isn't wrong or right.

[Mr. Gibson]

I'm still going with C. That's what my book shows. Let you guys go back to arguing about it. You're very entertaining in an otherwise boring life.🚬

[blindboygrunt]

Is anyone going to sing it ?