Angie .. is it in key of Am or C ?

[splake]

I remember all the classics I read in English Literature. Every professor I ever had, used to say In Moby **** Mellville used the Whale to symbolize this, and the harpoon symbolizes that, or in Hemminways Old man and the Sea, the fish symbolizes this and the struggle that. On and On, every book we cracked. . I am just asking the question. Is it possible that an author like Hemmingway, just say down with a bottle of rum, a few cuban cigars and 1/2 a key lime pie and wrote a story. And we just overanalyze the syntax, characters, and plot?. Maybe we should just read the book or play a song and enjoy it for what it is.

 

Angie is a cool, bluesy acoustic classic. Who the He*L Angie is, or what Key it happens to be in the the 7th dominant or whatever, is irrelevant.

 

Theory is an area I hope to improve in and there are dudes on this forum who forgort more about theory than i will ever know, but does it comes to a point where something is so overanaylzed it becomes unenjoyable, like work.? Its a job, Christ, I already have one job I do not like.

 

Sting once said that it is impossible for him to listen to a song without his mind constantly working, breaking it down, so he can not enjoy music like the normal man. Well after reading all of this, I am glad I am a dummy wallowing in my ignorance. If I ever get to the point where I have to break stuff down like discecting a frog, Christ what the point.? Are we splitting Atoms at the University of Chicago or listening to Goats head soup.

 

Would knowing Theory better make me a better guitar player? , Yup, I believe it. Im working on it. But when I got to crack a text book and use a thesarus and wikipedia to anaylze a sentence, Its time to sell the guitars and start playing spoons.

 

Its Music. No more, no less. When it becomes Science.... Im out. Time to move to the back of the class and throw spit wads.

 

My head hurts.

 

 

 

,

[stein]

I remember all the classics I read in English Literature. Every professor I ever had, used to say In Moby **** Mellville used the Whale to symbolize this, and the harpoon symbolizes that, or in Hemminways Old man and the Sea, the fish symbolizes this and the struggle that. On and On, every book we cracked. . I am just asking the question. Is it possible that an author like Hemmingway, just say down with a bottle of rum, a few cuban cigars and 1/2 a key lime pie and wrote a story. And we just overanalyze the syntax, characters, and plot?. Maybe we should just read the book or play a song and enjoy it for what it is.

 

Angie is a cool, bluesy acoustic classic. Who the He*L Angie is, or what Key it happens to be in the the 7th dominant or whatever, is irrelevant.

 

Theory is an area I hope to improve in and there are dudes on this forum who forgort more about theory than i will ever know, but does it comes to a point where something is so overanaylzed it becomes unenjoyable, like work.? Its a job, Christ, I already have one job I do not like.

 

Sting once said that it is impossible for him to listen to a song without his mind constantly working, breaking it down, so he can not enjoy music like the normal man. Well after reading all of this, I am glad I am a dummy wallowing in my ignorance. If I ever get to the point where I have to break stuff down like discecting a frog, Christ what the point.? Are we splitting Atoms at the University of Chicago or listening to Goats head soup.

 

Would knowing Theory better make me a better guitar player? , Yup, I believe it. Im working on it. But when I got to crack a text book and use a thesarus and wikipedia to anaylze a sentence, Its time to sell the guitars and start playing spoons.

 

Its Music. No more, no less. When it becomes Science.... Im out.

 

Just my .02.

 

,

Talking about it and playing it are different things. Sometimes theory is fun or not fun, but separate from the music.

 

I guess what I mean, is one can enjoy music theory separately from the music, but neither is required.

 

It's OK to overanylize, but also OK to not anylize at all.

 

It's like practice. Sometimes it's work, sometimes we are just playing for the heck of it. Both improve us in different ways.

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "I'm still going with C. That's what my book shows."

 

 

 

 

Think about Time Signatures for a Moment.

 

A designation of Common Time "C" usually means 4/4 Time.

 

But you could use Common Time, but place the eight notes in Triplets.

 

Then Music in Common Time usually interpreted as 4/4 would have a 12/8 Feel.

 

To make things even more complicated, or simpler if you are me, a Conductor will Trace.

 

4 Beats with his Baton, even though there are Twelve Notes to the Bar, essential to the Rhythm.

 

This makes the Conducting Clearer to the Musicians with a Strong Clear Beat, even though the "Feel" is more Rhythmically Complex.

 

The Music could be written in 12/8 time, but does not have to be, indeed there may well be mitigating reasons for that. Or you could have Common Time, but with a Dotted Note "Shuffle Feel".

 

You could even Play Straight Eighths, within a Context of 4 Beats to a Bar, as most people probably would with Music written in Common Time. So something seemingly very Simple and Clear, can be used in a Variety of Differing Ways.

 

 

 

 

Why is this important?

 

Because Musicianship involves the Ability to Effectively Interpret Written Notation.

 

Or for those that cannot Read Music, the Creative Ability to Effectively Translate, Interpret and Convey a Composers Inward Feelings, Expressing them Outwardly in a Musical Form.

 

In both instances, the Comprehension of the Composers Creative Intentions and the Ability to Interpret and Convey the Emotion of his or her Writing to the Audience, are Absolutely Paramount and Essential Ingredients of the Craft.

 

 

 

 

Simply looking at what is shown is not enough.

 

Properly Understanding what was intended, is really much of what Musicianship is about.

 

The Ability to Effectively Accomplish that Translation, in a Dynamic Manner that Powerfully Conveys Deeply Emotional Meaning, is Where True Greatness is to be Found.

 

Understanding How The Composer Felt, what he or her Meant, and Compellingly Interpreting That so an Audience Strongly Identifies with that Expression of Feeling is what it means to be a Real Musician.

 

Instead of Wondering what Key Signature the Music is in. (It is in A Minor). Concentrate on what the Words and Music are all about, think about and Try to Feel Deeply what the Composer Felt and Focus on Conveying That Feeling, in a Powerful Manner to the Audience they Positively Respond To.

 

 

 

This will take you a Long Way Towards.

 

Where you Should Want To Be.

[E-minor7]

Are we splitting Atoms at the University of Chicago or listening to Goats head soup.

 

Good Q - still there's nothing wrong in asking about a key or knowing what ditto the song your singing is in.

 

There are people who get so much into their hi-fi-systems that the thought of a recent upgrade from cobber to silver cables, totally outshines the actual musical experience.

They meet and sit in the sofa together and while the speakers glow, primarily imagine signals running through the rubbered silver.

 

A little dose of key-theory doesn't come near such degree of nerding at all. Besides it's every man for himself here.

 

Some just take that rum raw - others wan't to know how is was made, the history of the brand and even anecdotes from adventures where the liqueur played a part.

 

Analysing can be fun. Reading on several levels simultaneously can be highly entertaining and rewarding.

I'd never dissect my moves while dancing tho - not too deep anyway. Neither do I want to come across like the Scarecrow from The Wizard of Oz.

 

Those Fab-music X-rayers are close to ridigilously uncool, , , , and so un-beatles. The thought of them doin' the same with Stones music is down right absurd.

Like really overtalking the art of making love without ever bein' able to score a girl.

But let the clever boys in the class work - professors are professors are professors. They must, shall and will continue the task.

And sooner or later we'll probably need to look their stuff up. If not for anything else, then for a good smile, , , and the reassuring thought they got the job done.

 

Angie, , , ?

 

Ferociously burning she comes in C

[Smurfbird]

I hear way too many people in music stores wanking to overcomplicated riffs and chord voicings that sound painful to the ear. Trying to come up with something no one has heard yet at this late date suggests there's a reason it hasn't been played over and over and it's because it's hard on the ear.

 

Play from the heart and what sounds good to you. Nearly every person who began discussing music theory to explain why a song "worked" was just someone trying to intimidate other guys and to impress whatever girls were around. Silly nonsense. Most great musicians of this past century learned by putting the needle down on the record and listening over and over or by going to see the musicians in action and watching their hands very carefully.

 

I vote the key of C because Am is one of its relative minors, meaning its the same damn thing or close enough for rock 'n' roll.

[L5Larry]

I'm really not sure whether I even want to jump in to this "argument", but I've been reading along silently while biting my tongue. So,.... here goes.

 

The answer simply comes down to one note!

 

When soloing over the chord progression in question, does the series of notes played contain the note "F", or "F#". Determining which of those notes to use will give the definitive answer, as each one is contained in one of the scales and not the other.

 

I'm going to duck and run now!

[jdgm]

Thanks very much. Completely ridiculous and very entertaining indeed.

 

I didn't mean to....oh never mind.

 

Um....I think I can get to Kevin Bacon in 3.

 

(EDIT) Good call from Larry!

[stein]

 

 

 

 

Why is this important?

 

Because Musicianship involves the Ability to Effectively Interpret Written Notation.

 

Or for those that cannot Read Music, the Creative Ability to Effectively Translate, Interpret and Convey a Composers Inward Feelings, Expressing them Outwardly in a Musical Form.

 

In both instances, the Comprehension of the Composers Creative Intentions and the Ability to Interpret and Convey the Emotion of his or her Writing to the Audience, are Absolutely Paramount and Essential Ingredients of the Craft.

 

 

 

 

 

Properly Understanding what was intended, is really much of what Musicianship is about.

 

 

Understanding How The Composer Felt, what he or her Meant, and Compellingly Interpreting That so an Audience Strongly Identifies with that Expression of Feeling is what it means to be a Real Musician.

 

Instead of Wondering what Key Signature the Music is in. (It is in A Minor). Concentrate on what the Words and Music are all about, think about and Try to Feel Deeply what the Composer Felt and Focus on Conveying That Feeling, in a Powerful Manner to the Audience they Positively Respond To.

 

 

 

This will take you a Long Way Towards.

 

Where you Should Want To Be.

I respectfully disagree, sir.

 

You are right, in that translating what is intended from music IS a skill, but when it comes to Jazz and Blues, what is of greater importance is what the musician feels and chooses to play.

 

In other words, NOT what the composer feels or felt.

 

The ability to mimic is of little importance compared to the ability to create, and express.

 

I would say that in Rock and Roll, what sets apart the good players from the so-so ones is also based on this idea: that a players and performers heart and interpretation is what makes a player worth listening too, instead of just hearing a cover tune. BORING.

 

Thus, written music is best served as a template for mutual communication, if one does classical, then meant to be performed perfectly. For Jazz, Blues, and Rock and Roll, only a tool as a starting point.

[flatbaroque]

I'm surprised noone has bought up the fact that Angie was originally titled Aung Kyi.

It was written when Keith was going through a period of deep Buddhist reflection (as he is want to do).

It was his homage to Burmese Nobel Laureate and activist Aung San Suu Kyi.

He composed it in a hotel in Burma on a traditional Burmese harp known as a Saung- Gauk.

A 14 string instument, but Keith usually takes one string off.

It was composed in the Burmese key of Q.

Hope that has cleared things up.

[j45nick]

I'm surprised noone has bought up the fact that Angie was originally titled Aung Kyi.

It was written when Keith was going through a period of deep Buddhist reflection (as he is want to do).

It was his homage to Burmese Nobel Laureate and activist Aung San Suu Kyi.

He composed it in a hotel in Burma on a traditional Burmese harp known as a Saung- Gauk.

A 14 string instument, but Keith usually takes one string off.

It was composed in the Burmese key of Q.

Hope that has cleared things up.

 

 

Now you're just messin' with my head. I think I need a drink. Or maybe a little smoke. Or both.

 

Nah, I think I'll just go play guitar. After I have a drink and a smoke.

[BluesKing777]

I'm surprised noone has bought up the fact that Angie was originally titled Aung Kyi.

It was written when Keith was going through a period of deep Buddhist reflection (as he is want to do).

It was his homage to Burmese Nobel Laureate and activist Aung San Suu Kyi.

He composed it in a hotel in Burma on a traditional Burmese harp known as a Saung- Gauk.

A 14 string instument, but Keith usually takes one string off.

It was composed in the Burmese key of Q.

Hope that has cleared things up.

 

 

Cool - that's one of the reasons we love this forum - the incredible knowledge and mind blowing information that comes forth!

 

I am not sure how Keef got hold of the Saung-Gauk, FB ...... they are tightly held by their owners, who go through an 'apprenticeship' of approximately 45 years with the initiation ceremony involving, correct me if I am wrong, trimming some of the skin from the gonads, to see how much they want that Saung-Gauk I assume, and how generally keen they are on learning the instrument? But he probably pinched it from Brian?

 

 

BluesKing777.

[flatbaroque]

Cool - that's one of the reasons we love this forum - the incredible knowledge and mind blowing information that comes forth!

 

I am not sure how Keef got hold of the Saung-Gauk, FB ...... they are tightly held by their owners, who go through an 'apprenticeship' of approximately 45 years with the initiation ceremony involving, correct me if I am wrong, trimming some of the skin from the gonads, to see how much they want that Saung-Gauk I assume, and how generally keen they are on learning the instrument? But he probably pinched it from Brian?

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

Ha! Good call Bk.Yes it was in fact Brian's Saung-Gauk.And here's a little bit of trivia for you.That was no sitar in "Paint it Black"....yep 100% Saung-Gauk.

[BobF_]

First, theory and rules are afterthoughts developed in an attempt to explain what rock-n-rollers just played ...

 

 

I hate to quote myself, but this really is the crux for me. Play first. What sounds great may or may not fit with rules or theory. If it doesn't, they'll call it "borrowing" in the minor cases and "jazz" in the extremes - LOL!

[Mr. Gibson]

I'm sure the Rolling Stones lied to the book publisher. Because they were high.

[stein]

Cool - that's one of the reasons we love this forum - the incredible knowledge and mind blowing information that comes forth!

 

I am not sure how Keef got hold of the Saung-Gauk, FB ...... they are tightly held by their owners, who go through an 'apprenticeship' of approximately 45 years with the initiation ceremony involving, correct me if I am wrong, trimming some of the skin from the gonads, to see how much they want that Saung-Gauk I assume, and how generally keen they are on learning the instrument? But he probably pinched it from Brian?

 

 

BluesKing777.

So there should be no complaints about having to learn a little "theory" then.

[stein]

Now you're just messin' with my head. I think I need a drink. Or maybe a little smoke. Or both.

 

Nah, I think I'll just go play guitar. After I have a drink and a smoke.

Actually, I think ACCURATE sheet music for this song would have that written right at the top with the tempo.

[EuroAussie]

Sweet Home Alabama - G ior D ?

 

Lets keep this thread going for another 6 pages.

[flatbaroque]

Sweet Home Alabama - G ior D ?

 

Lets keep this thread going for another 6 pages.

 

 

Davey Graham's Sweet Home HelloMama was in Bb

[stein]

Sweet Home Alabama - G ior D ?

 

Lets keep this thread going for another 6 pages.

I got nothin'.

[BluesKing777]

Davey Graham's Sweet Home HelloMama was in Bb

 

 

Yes, and he originally wrote it on an Oud while lounging in Morocco. So even though it could sound like Bb, it had a string relationship like the DADGAD tuning he made popular with his tune on return to UK - Black Mouldy River Mountain Water.....

 

I thought Sweet Home was in drop D?

 

 

BluesKing777.

[MorrisrownSal]

Forget Sweet Home... Let's debate Aretha's Chain of Fools...

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "I respectfully disagree, sir."

 

 

 

I'm fine with that.

 

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing.

 

The thing is to be able to disagree, without becoming disagreeable.

 

To be honest, reading through your post, I was unable to detect, where we significantly disagreed.

 

You appeared to writing sentiments very much along a similar view, but using alternative descriptions, to express, fundamentally similar thoughts.

 

But you have made some points worth further exploration, points that prompt one to think seriously and that are worth deeper examination, so I thank you for your intelligently positive contribution to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote: "You are right, in that translating what is intended from music IS a skill, but when it comes to Jazz and Blues, what is of greater importance is what the musician feels and chooses to play.

In other words, NOT what the composer feels or felt."

 

 

 

 

 

Not to the Composer!

 

Do they deserve to have a say?

 

 

I do very much indeed believe they do.

 

More to the point, is the fact that, so do they.

 

 

Furthermore, if you think that the Greatest Jazz Players.

 

Have not Empathetically Felt the Composers Happiness or Pain.

 

And do not therefore Fully Comprehend the Inward Emotions of the Writer.

 

 

Then with complete and utter respect to you, I do think that viewpoint, is completely mistaken.

 

But that is but the beginning of the issues that I find prompted from the particular line of thought expressed above.

 

 

 

 

The thing is.

 

What makes Brilliant Lyrics.

 

And the most Powerfully Memorable Music.

 

Is when Every Single Superfluous Word and Note is Avoided.

 

In other words, the Time and Space Around and Between the Words and Notes.

 

Give Form, Shape, Character, Scansion of Melodic Line and Time for Emotional Meaning to be Absorbed.

 

 

Most often, when you are explaining something important to someone, you need to give them a proper opportunity, to let the information fully sink in, and you can observe this happening as their face literally lights up with a newly enlightened understanding.

 

 

You could keep pounding them with further information, when they clearly haven't as yet, properly absorbed the relatively small amount of information that has been shared thus far. However, that is usually completely counterproductive, as people can usually only process a certain amount of information, in any given space of time.

 

 

Furthermore, I can think of instances when I have had to Orchestrate Music that Dynamically Builds and Builds until you reach the Point of Climax and seemingly has nowhere further to go. In such cases, I have found that Suddenly Introducing Silence and Space. Contra-Punctuating Powerful Loudness, with Silence then Sudden and Unexpected Dynamic Pulses, Actually Heightens Tension and the Emotional Impact of the Music.

 

 

At a more rudimentary level, it's simply the most difficult lesson of all for many Musical Enthusiasts. The fact that What you Deliberately Leave Out is just as Important as What You Deliberately Play. In other words The Time and Space Around and Between the Notes, is Vitally Important, at least as Important as the Notes Themselves; furthermore the Space gives a Greater, More Powerful Impact, to the Notes you Do Play, leaving a Deeper, More Memorable Impression on the Listener.

 

 

On a Scientific Level, it has been discovered that apart from a Small Number of Highly Trained, Listening Ears, the Average Musical Listeners Brain is Incapable of Absorbing and Deciphering more than Three Different Melodic Lines, Playing Simultaneously within any Given Composition. At times the Brain shuts off information from the senses, to enable it to Properly Focus its Concentration on what it deems Most Important. What this means to a Musician dealing with traditional fare is that if you have too much going on, all at once, most people will find that a definite turn off, and won't be able to identify with, relate to, enjoy or purchase that Music.

 

 

 

 

I have worked a fair amount in Studios with Session Players.

 

The thing about them is that they are a Songwriters Dream Team.

 

They are Creative and have the in Vogue Sound and Playing Techniques.

 

And give New Music the Ideal Balance of Creativity and Appropriate Support.

 

In others words, they Contribute What is Needful, but don't do too much or too little.

 

That in itself, is a Great and Rare Gift. And why for the most part Budding Musicians were Replaced on Recording Sessions with Hit Making Studio Session Players.

 

Earlier I mentioned Bob Graham who worked with Li'l Jimmy Page, Big Jim Sullivan and others on Recording Sessions, most days, for years. Shel Talmy, Legendary American Producer of The Kinks, David Bowie, The Who said of him "For me Bobby Graham was the Greatest Drummer the UK has ever produced."

 

He had 13 No 1 Hits, 10 No 2 Hits, 4 No 3 Hits, 6 No 4 Hits, 7 No 5 Hits, 107 Top 50 Hits and 1155 Days in the Charts, and that was when you had to Sell a Massive Amount of Records to even get in the Charts in the First Place. Usually they got "The Take" within "Two or Three Takes", though I can definitely think of some Successful Recordings where the All the Tracks were laid with the "First Take".

 

It's all about being Not Prone to Error, Highly Creative, Musically Intuitive, able to Understand and Interpret a Composers Intentions, almost by Sheer Instinct. Few Musicians are Gifted that way. Li'l Jim was very much like that and Played on all kinds of Artists Recordings as far away from Led Zepplin as one could imagine. But's here's the catch in all this that I have been gradually building to all along.

 

 

 

 

Bob was a Self Described as a Complete Jazz Snob, he Played Ronnie Scotts etc.

 

And even took over leadership of John Barry's Band for a while after John got started Scoring for Films with the James Bond Film Dr. No. So Bob Played Drums on The James Bond Theme. Yep, you've been Listening to Him All Your Life.

 

I Studied Bass with Carole Kaye to be able to Score better, more Compelling Bass Parts, she was another one, a Great Jazz Player, most Top 60's American Session Players were in point of fact, yet she was able to Constrain (to a large degree) all her Natural Tendencies and Give the Music, exactly what was Needful, No Less, No More.

 

 

 

 

I understand the point above you are making.

 

But the Biggest Problem is that your argument is easily broken down by the following fact.

 

Although there have been a long succession of Fast Playing, Hot Jazz Musicians of every description over the Years.

 

Arguably the Most Signification of them all, Most Successful, Best Selling and Most Widely Known by the Public at Large, is the Incredible Miles Davis.

 

He was Best Known for his Hallmark Muted Trumpet, imprinted in Spaciously Sparse Soundscapes, and this Created a Whole, Brand New Genre of Modern Jazz known as "Cool Jazz".

 

For sure he could have Played Whatever he Wanted, but his Music goes far beyond any Self Indulgent, Improvised Display of Virtuoso Extemporization, and What He Left Out what was What Made His Sound Unique.

 

In Point of Fact, if you were to Study the Original Musical Compositions and Musical Arrangements of Many Composers Works and directly compare the Written Notation to Miles Davis's Arrangements, often Highly Complex Bridges were Stripped Down to the Bare Essentials, and THAT was what made Mile's Music, Powerfully Compelling to Listen To, for the Person in the Street.

 

I remember sitting in an Amsterdam Hotel with Bob and a Bunch of Other Younger Musicians who happened to be discussing the Latest "Happening" Group who Played Highly Complex Music Indeed. Bob asked the Musicians "Do you understand WHY you like this Group so much?" He went on, "The real reason you like them so much is because as a Musicians you understand How Difficult it is to Play like that from a Technical Perspective, so as Musicians you Appreciate it."

 

"But Ordinary People that you find in the Street, Do Not Relate to Music in That Way. Normal People, the type of people that Buy Most Records, do so because they Connect to the Music Emotionally. They Can Relate to the Music, because it Moves Their Emotions." I have to tell you that is was a Most Salutatory Lesson, and certainly had me Listening Hard and I have never Forgotten It.

 

 

 

 

Let me finish by telling you about a Recording Mix made by an Old Pal.

 

The Music was to be Featured in a Film and the Film Company wanted a Full Orchestral Score for this Climax Moment in the Movie.

 

However my Pal Mixed what was in comparison to what the Film Company wanted a Very Sparse Mix Indeed. The Film Company hated it, but Kevin Costner and Whitney Houston who Starred in the Film heard it and Loved it.

 

Clive Davis who was heading up the Sony Record Division walked around all summer with it in his Pocket not knowing quite what to do, whatever he did was going to upset some Important and Influential Folk. In the end he okayed the release and it became the 25th best Selling Record in All Recording History.

 

 

 

Why?

 

Because the Mix Emphasized.

 

The Sheer Power and Emotion of The Singers Delivery.

 

There was Nothing to Distract Attention away from the Drama of that Climax.

 

 

 

And The Star Quality of The Singers Voice, Shined all The Brighter, for The Darkness Surrounding It!

 

 

 

Decades ago, I worked on a Musical Project involving Legendary American Artist "Johnny Cash".

 

He Completely Understood this Whole Concept, Completely Intuitively. His Voice and the Reality of the Songs Message was what made his Recordings So Compellingly Authentic.

 

This is absolutely true. At one point he became concerned that the Guitarist in his Backing Group, "The Tennessee Three" was becoming too good, and might distract attention from the Powerful Message of his Songs, so he actually hid the Guitarist's Guitar away, quite deliberately, so he was Completely Unable to Practice.

 

 

 

What you Leave Out, is as Important, as What you Play.

 

Eric Clapton can play Mind Blowing Licks all day long, but rarely does so.

 

It's not about "How Fast you Play" or "How Many Notes you can Cram into a Solo" so what's it about?

 

It about Expressing the Emotion that Motivated the Composer. Emotionally and Creatively they are on the Same Page.

 

 

 

 

 

The picture below is of my friend Bob with Film Composer John Barry.

 

Emotionally, Creatively, Physically, in the Photograph, and in this Fora Thread, they are absolutely on the Same Page.

 

 

 

 

[ksdaddy]

.....used the Whale to symbolize this, and the harpoon symbolizes that, or in Hemminways Old man and the Sea, the fish symbolizes this and the struggle that. On and On, every book we cracked....Maybe we should just read the book or play a song and enjoy it for what it is.

 

When I was in school I did the absolute least I had to do to get by. (Side note, I play a Telecaster with no effects through the 'nearest' amp...coincidence?)

 

When I was a Junior (Grade 11 to our Canadian brethren) I took a class called "Great Books". We read The Old Man and the Sea, The Pearl, Of Mice and Men, and it's possible we read A Separate Peace, (maybe I read that on my own). About that time, on my own, right there in front of God and everyone, I also read The Grapes of Wrath, Catcher in the Rye and likely others that I don't readily recall...Cannery Row? I don't remember. The teacher pushed the whole symbolism thing. I've questioned it ever since. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I find it hard to believe an author would lay awake at night thinking up cryptic puzzles for us to figure out or be told what it meant by someone more learned. Doesn't make sense.

 

For the same reason, I don't like cryptic music. I still don't fully understand American Pie (but most of it), I hate Stairway to Heaven. I've listened to that song for 42 years and I have no idea what it means and if a song makes me feel stupid I tend to not buy the record.

[Smurfbird]

Oftentimes, the joy is in the mystery, the not-knowing, the grey area.

 

By never knowing the exact circumstances, Neil Young's "Thinking about what a friend had said, I was hoping it was a lie" takes on a greater power than it ever would had he told us a literal fact about what this friend has said.

 

Richard Meltzer once famously said of Dylan, circa Blonde on Blonde, that he was the first rock songwriter who attempted to rescue man from meaning rather than through it.

 

There are times when the specific takes on the feeling of the universal and vice versa. The literalist of lyrics are often those that fall short and reveal an amateur. Or as Dylan said in his early 40s, "In order to deal in this game, you gotta make the queen disappear, it's done with a flick of the wrist."

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: "Oftentimes, the joy is in the mystery, the not-knowing, the grey area."

 

 

 

Your interesting post, particularly focuses on Lyrics.

 

Someone in a previous post mentioned a Documentary Film made about the "The Beatles"

 

A while back, such a Documentary Film was made strongly featuring input from a dear, very admired friend of mine, and another expert from hereabouts.

 

Usually, but not always, there are huge unconscious areas of influence, that seeming, entirely Authentic and Original Artists, have clearly been influenced by, throughout a lifetime of Osmosis. These are easily understood and revealed by Expert Insight.

 

The gradual, unconscious, collecting and absorbing process whereby ideas, knowledge, and various forms of expression are gathered over time, only to be subsequently filtered through a further Creative Spark and Following Process, to Eventually be Produced, into what appears to be an entirely Unique Work is a Fascinating Area for Contemplation.

 

 

 

 

This to many, Mysterious Process, happens not only with Lyrics.

 

But also with Musical Motifs, Phrases, Form and Structural Notation.

 

Indeed, parts of some of "The Beatles" Most Admired Songs can be directed traced back to their first original use in Ancient Hymn Writing, all "The Beatles" will have been Strongly Exposed to as Children, Growing Up. The Documentary my friend was involved in exposed these processes in compelling detail.

 

Yet such connections, are never obvious to The Composer, or they would in most cases avoid them entirely because of their innate integrity, (although some borrow inspiration knowingly) and set in such an entirely different context, neither are these influences clear to the keen Listener, only to what are usually Professors of the History of English Literature or the History of Music.

 

George Martins score for The Beatles ' "All You Need is Love" (1967) contained melodies from several songs thought to be Public Domain including "In The Mood," written by Joe Garland and Andy Razaf. While the song was in the public domain, the Glenn Miller arrangement used was not and EMI made a royalty payment to KPM Publishing in July 1967. The thing to understand here is that a Distinctive Musical Arrangement can be Copyrighted, just as a Lyric or Melody can be.

 

John Lennon's use of a line from Chuck Berry's You Can't Catch Me ("Here come up flat top /He was movin' up with me") the 1969 Beatles' song "Come Together " ("Here comes ol' flat-top / He come groovin' up slowly") led to a lawsuit from Berry's publisher, Big Seven Music Corp. In 1973, a settlement was reached whereby Lennon agreed to record three of Big Seven's songs on his next album. Big Seven Music Corp. again sued Lennon for breach of contract, when his 1974 album, Wall and Bridges, failed to contain all three of the songs, with the court awarding the company US $6,795.

 

George Harrison was successfully sued in a prolonged suit that began in 1971 for plagiarizing The Chiffons "He So Fine" (1963) for the melody of his own "My Sweet Lord " (1970). In the ruling, the judge stated that he believed Harrison had not intentionally copied the song, but more than likely experienced an episode of Cryptomnesia.

 

 

 

 

In point of fact, Cryptomnesia can be attributed to most of the instances occurring with Artists of the Greatest Integrity.

 

And is understood perhaps, better by my earlier description of the slow work of Internally Absorbed Forces, that eventually Spill Out in what appears to be Entirely Original Work.

 

It's a Personal Viewpoint, but I see such Artists in a rather different light to those that Deliberately and Consciously Crib, Small Sections and Elements of Another Artists Work, turning a Blind Eye and Hoping that none will notice, or Changing the Structural Context of the Accompaniment so as to Deliberately Disguise the Fact.

 

 

 

 

However, the Most Interesting Point that your insightful post prompted to my mind was the following.

 

When Lyrics or a Musical Setting features an element of Mystery, is Ambiguous or its Meaning or Context is Deliberately Obfuscated in Some Way.

 

Its provides the Listener with what I regard to be A Powerful Difference between a Book and a Film. It allows the Listener to Employ that Most Scintillating of all Creative Powers, their Own Imagination.

 

Once a Listener can Deploy the Power of their Own Imagination and apply it to the Lyrics or Music, they can Ascribe their Own Interpretation of Meaning, Release the Emotions of their Own Inner Life Experiences; and in a very Unique Way, even a Work that Appears to have No Genuine Meaning of Personal Significance to a Lyricist or Composer, can suddenly enact a Dynamically Powerful Impression upon their Audience.

 

 

 

In Fact, the Work becomes of almost Unique, Deeply Personal Significance to Them.

 

 

Therein Lies the Secret of its Power!

 

 

 

 

More Fine Drumming Hits from my friend Bob!

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0Ib501CEjU