stein Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I checked the guitar tuning now every 30 minutes or so without playing it and it appears to be more stable with the tailpiece up a little higher. I do think the bridge being on backwards is most of the issue. I'm kinda stumped. Rarely, RARELY is the bridge a problem that can't be seen. Usually it's because of movement, either the bridge on the post, or play in the saddles. But to tell the truth, by the time it is, you can see things move. But I guess it could be. Of corse, if it had the same problem with a Nashville, it seems less likely. Not sure how far your bridge conversion went, but the studs on a Nashville, they are stout. And also, if a guitar in a room is changing tune by itself, not being moved, room stable, as soon as 30 minutes. What the heck could that be? Fret dressings: If some of the frets are worn, then sure, it might be time. In my case, I do a lot of string bending and vibrato and such, and often wear frets down without having the typical "dents". It shows itself when notes start to fret out. I usually raise the action until it's bad enough or I get the opportunity. So perhaps you have worn some down enough that the "hump" in the uppers is back into play. Racking my brain, the only things I can think of that would cause a guitar to go sharp while playing it, is the bridge moving forward after tuning it, or the strings you are using suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Yeah, I too find these sort of threads a bit odd sometimes.. No offence to the OP or anything its just ive also played many guitars over the years, I own four gibbies at the moment but have had as many as nine at the same time and ive never ever once had any of these issues never had any work done on them or had to do more than intonate or lower the bridge a bit, thats it... Either ive been really lucky or there are just some things about how you set up a Gibson that people just don't understand??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 It takes a guitar about ten minutes of playing to "settle". I'm not being a d1ck. I don't want to argue, I just can't get behind the idea that all these les pauls need fret dresses and leveling after they "settle". rct From the pictures it seems obvious to me that string action is too low. Strings usually tend to go flat after bendings, sharp from being just picked. Strings touching bridge adjustment screws can be more prone to going out of tune. Yep. I see it now. That action is LOW...at least that's what the pics show. Too low might be a matter of taste, and for those that like low or lower than low, LP is a good choice because it's easier to fine tune, and has a flat fretbaord. But Obviously, more prone to problems, and also, things need to be more perfect. Fine tuning to low would entail lowering the bridge until it buzzes, and adjusting the rod to make it buzz in higher registers or lower registers, re-adjusting the bridge...going back and forth until optimum. But if one little thing goes out, it buzzes. There is a convention wisdom (or was) that for optimum, the frets at the upper registers should be filed to drop off, thus taking them 'out of play' and not being potential problems, especially since action there isn't all that important or a deal-breaker. I could see where this might start a "rumor" that set-neck guitars or guitars with fretbaords over the body always have problems. But most of the time, frets aren't filed down at the heel to be out of the way unless done on purpose or asked to, or done at the factory. And rarely does a new solid-body change enough there for many, many years to be all that different from the way it was built. Also, should be noted, truss rods don't adjust the whole length of the neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. C.O. Jones Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Personally I would bring it to someone else, or try to do those things yourself. He may have a good reputation but I think he did a poor job on your guitar. I agree with the others that a new guitar shouldn't need a fretwork. I have Tonepros bridges and tailpieces on both my Les Paul's and you are right they don't move. And on mine I have no intonation or tuning issues, and they still have the stock nut's. I have a 14 Traditional too, awesome guitar. And yours looks fantastic. Try to put the bridge screws facing the pickup and a tad higher action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 No offense but the guitar has been "fixed" so much by "qualified personnel" that it doesn't surprise me at all that it's so messed up now. No mystery there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Since your getting the same results using the same people working on the guitar, my suggestion would be locate/select a Guitar Luthier vs. a guitar "Tech" at this point. Kinda like going to a Internist/Specialist vs. a Physician's Assistant in the Health Care world. Have them check over the whole guitar and all the interactions. I am no expert, but the only time that my guitars have gone sharp is when the neck relief is flattening out with temp/season changes(less relief bow). All the other things mentioned are items to consider and would be good to have double checked and corrected if needed. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 This is very simple. If the neck isn't slowing bowing backwards and the guitar goes sharp over time it's the nut. I assume the op is tuning up to pitch, should be anyway. If the strings are trapped at the nut they slowly cone through overtime, going sharp. It's time for a new tech anyway. After 2 visits for the same problem it's always time to find a new one. Especially if he puts you bridge on backwards and set the tail too low. Move the tail up, turn the bridge round, lube the nut. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsinicropi Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Well I'm perplexed. All my other guitars, even a 20 year old Taylor acoustic hanging on the same hook it's been on, unplayed for about 10 months was in tune when I picked it up a couple months ago. I brought it back to him yesterday, made some adjustments to the nut and saddles. We raised the bridge considerably and put new strings on and re did the intonation.It felt great and played in tune while I was there, and had another guy who brought his guitars to him play it and said this plays great. Brought it home re tuned as it was out a tad, new strings and played it for about an hour. Strings were going sharp again. most noticablely was the a and d not jiving. Seems the a appears in tune on the tuner and at the 12 fret as well as the d however the d is flat on the fret board playing open a. Sometimes it feels and sounds in tune after tuning then goes sharp. I tune the guitar and as soon as I get the high e and check again, the e a d are sharp almost immediately. wow... I'm going nuts. I'm now sitting the LP close to the lite fireplace and see if a warm temp rise affects it. I will leave the axe with him for the weekend and maybe change to Grovers which I have. If he can't sort it out, it's going to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I don't know what it could possibly be. Truthfully, if the guitar is working and playing good at the luthier, I don't see how he could be blamed. Or you. Or anyone. I have one idea: Perhaps check the tuning on all the frets, not just open string and 12th fret. It's possible the nut isn't perfect, so tuning open strings on a slightly out nut will not be in tune on the frets. Likewise, if intonation is set and adjusted to open strings on a slightly out nut, intonation will be slightly off everywhere else. So..a guitar tuned up will play in tune at some places, but not all places if tuned/intonated to a bad nut. I know it's a stretch, but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I tune the guitar and as soon as I get the high e and check again, the e a d are sharp almost immediately. Hold the body tight and try to move the headstock, see if the neck moves an unreasonable amount, like it is flopping around the truss rod or the joint isn't right at the body. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Hello! If it goes sharp, nothing else I can suspect but the nut. Put some pencil shavings into the nut slots. At least, to disclose it as a culprit. Good luck... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobK Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Out of interest, who put the bridge on the wrong way round? And did the guy doing the set up notice? Does anyone actually notice a guitar very slightly out of tune? The moment you start thrashing and string bending and the doors start opening and temperature changes occur at the venue guitars in my experience always go very slightly out. With all the noise going on you need the ears of a bat to notice. Way out, different matter. After all that work and five set ups I would, no offence, sell the damm thing. Life's to short. Or get a gforce.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaicho8888 Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Odd indeed...I could only think of the bridge tilting when you tune the rest of the higher strings. If the bridge is loose on the post, tightening the upper strings could tilt the whole bridge forward (shorter string length) and cause previously tuned string to shorten and give a sharp tuning. Since you changed from a Nashville to an ABR bridge, were the Nashville posts removed, plugged, and drilled for a #6-32 post...or maybe use a conversion kit. Nashville embeds are sometimes slightly loose from wood drying and pulls out easily and wiggles. Good luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the dog Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I just looked at your pics and it looks like pups are to close to strings.....it amazes me how some one with all that guitar experience has all these troubles..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 This is very simple. If the neck isn't slowing bowing backwards and the guitar goes sharp over time it's the nut. I assume the op is tuning up to pitch, should be anyway. If the strings are trapped at the nut they slowly cone through overtime, going sharp. It's time for a new tech anyway. After 2 visits for the same problem it's always time to find a new one. Especially if he puts you bridge on backwards and set the tail too low. Move the tail up, turn the bridge round, lube the nut. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engineer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 No guitar pro here, but a professional troubleshooter. After reading through the thread and what's been done. The fact that it played nice and did not go out of tune at the luthier intrigues me. Did you consider that this could possibly be an environmental issue? I mean, temperature and humidity shifts, which affects the wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Hejsan Engineer! I keep guitars at two locations. Both are not so friendly for guitars, theoretically. Still, I didn't not experience any trouble with them. I guess, the concept of keeping a guitar within ideal conditions is a bit overrated. Sudden changes are what to look out for. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Guitars don't move over a 2 minutes period because of environmental factors. Now that the op has said the string creeps sharp over a 2 minute period from tuning it can only be the nut trapping the string. There is no other feasible answer. Lube the nut with graphite by sibling pencil in the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 ... Did you consider that this could possibly be an environmental issue? I mean, temperature and humidity shifts, which affects the wood. Temperature can be the culprit, but rather the difference between skin and environmental temperature. The bigger the difference, the larger the effect within very short periods, ranging from a few seconds for an E1st up to three minutes for an E6th, both for going sharp and flat as well. It's about string temperature here - compared to strings, the woods of a solid guitar react pretty slowly. Steel string pitches go sharp when warmed up and flat when cooled down - that's not funny, it's a fact. When about sets with a plain G3rd, the significance is largest for E6th and G3rd, followed by A5th and B2nd, and finally D4th and E1st. The best way is playing the guitar warm through chord strumming for some minutes and then keeping both hands very close to the strings during tuning. The faster you tune them, the better. You may even have a problem to achieve any tuning stability in a cool environment when you're slow. Our rehearsal room is a basement without heating and thus very cool in winter. Playing is not so nice there at the moment, but tuning before the rehearsals is a real art, believe me. After a short break the guitars and the bass are definitely out of tune again, and it's best to play them warm for some time instead of retuning. Tuning pitches will be back as soon as they were gone. I guess you know now why I love my TP-6 tailpieces when changing guitars between songs. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I find the oposite. Strings go flat as they warm up. Heat causes the material to expand, reducing the tention. It's the nut. Lube it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I find the oposite. Strings go flat as they warm up. Heat causes the material to expand, reducing the tention. ... Before I started setting up guitars for bandmates in 1979, I thought that, too. However, it seems to be more complex, as I found out soon when I began playing myself in late 1980. After having put my guitars into stands for half an hour or so in the cold rehearsal room, pitches are sharp. As soon as I start playing them, they go even sharper and need tuning down. I guess it's a blend of short-term and long-term effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Interesting. My guitars all seem to go "sharp" after being in the case, or even left without playing, for extended periods. Once I take them out, and/or re-tune them, to concert pitch, I'll have to repeat that process, several times, until the neck (or strings?) settles down. After which, they'll stay in tune pretty well! I just figured it was the neck, mostly, more than the strings. ??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 There can be lots of factors. I sometimes admire my instruments for their resilience, but perhaps I'm just overcautious. I'm storing my guitars and basses in cases lying horizontally, and the tuning stability under living room conditions couldn't be any better despite some imperfect details in storage. Even the 30.5" scale SG basses went just about a few cents flat during nine and a half months. Since the final rehearsal with my now late bandmate I hadn't touched them until last Thursday... My Floyd Rose Strats's bridges are very slightly under pressure which puts some percents more tension to the necks. They obviously take that without problems. It's the same with my Ibanez RG since 1987. Then there are strongly varying neck supports due to inaccurate fits. E. g. the standard-sized Les Paul case is not perfect for an Axcess model, but no problems here, too. As long as my instruments stay in my dwell, I rarely touch the tuners since after a short warm-up all of them typically are well tuned to pitch. As I posted in mid-November, two of my axes were on the road 560 kilometers (about 348 miles) and well in tune before and after - including acclimatization in their cases, of course. One of them had to be tuned down for servicing since it got a new nut, and Thomann's master luthier obviously knows very well how to tune with as much stability as possible. Anyway, the temperature and humidity differences between dwells and rehearsal room seem to be the only challenges, for timbers and strings as well as for my bandmates and me. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 When I used to play around Portland, I found it ALWAYS took time for the guitar to adjust to temperature going from outside in the trunk of a car to the room I was going to play in. So much so it wasn't even worth tuning until the guitar at least felt like it was warm to the touch...as much as I could tell. Wood my be more affected by temperature than metal, but I think it's probably more the metal strings changing in the case of tuning. It wouldn't take much of a change to effect tuning on the strings. I don't think that's the case here, as the guitar is staying in the same room. Maybe it's been too long, but I can't honestly say if I ever had a guitar that was still completely in tune after 3-4 songs if it was in tune when first playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsinicropi Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hey guys, so I got the guitar back a few days ago and from the same tech and he said the only thing he could find was the neck was backbowing a little and he made a correction, that was it. He said it was sharp the first day he had then seemed to settle in. I went and picked it up and was still not happy with the results. I have a good ear and know when it sounds right, or not. It was not. He said just play it for a few days. I did, I played it for a few days out of tune. We had a ton of rain in the past week and the past 2 days I found that it was now playing correctly and in tune. Wow. WTF... I'm still not sure what the hell is going on with this. So for now, it's playing good. I'll keep you posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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