fsharp Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I've been thinking lately that I would like to own a really old (older than me) flattop guitar - something built between 1880 and 1940. I'm not looking for a collectible that would hang on the wall in a case. I would like something that I could play frequently. My questions for those of you with far more knowledge than I have are: Are those guitars playable? Are the necks so thick that they are difficult to play? Are there any guides around as to how much a given antique guitar in a certain condition should go for? Should I stick to Gibson and Martin or are there other brands that I should consider? I've looked around on-line and anything in my price range is almost guaranteed to have some cracks in the body and often other issues. I'm thinking the sane way to buy one be to make sure I could get my money back and then take it directly to a luthier for a professional inspection. I'm not going to shell out $25k or more for a perfect guitar but I don't want to spend $5k either for a something that's falling apart. Are there any other things I should look out for? Any shops that I should look at or for that matter stay away from? Thanks in advance for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It is a big question. Guitars from the 1930s are often considered to be among the best ever made, and their prices show it. There are no fundamental reason they can't be used and played -- they are really the first "modern" guitars -- but of course many have issues because of their long lives. 1880 to about 1920 are pre- modern or antique. Wonderful in their own way, but they are generally very lightly built -- which makes them not appropriate for many things. They were generally not made for steel strings. The 1920s are the transition guitars. For 1930s Gibson and Martin guitars, you might pay $150K for a good '35 D-28 or $80K for an AJ to maybe $3K-$4K for a 0-17 or L-00 -- these are prices for guitars without major issues. You need to know what you are looking for. People spend their lives studying all this -- it can be really rewarding, but I would advise you move with caution. Good luck, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You're in 'pre-war' territory, especially tough with a budget. Good quality guitars are going to be expensive, and you would have to be adept at spotting fixable instruments to get a good break. You're hinting at the need for playability, as you're no spring chicken. This might be your greatest challenge. Tweak up to include the '50's and you'll have a much bigger selection, although I'm sure the good nerds here will be able to guide you better. I would abandon the symbolism and simply find a nice old player in your price range. By the same token, if you were to throw 3 grand my way I might be talked into parting with my '31 L0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I think you first have to decide what type of music you want to play on the guitar, and then find a suitable type of guitar. Then as the next step decide on a budget. This is what I did when I ended up with a 1942 J-45 a few years ago. I had decided on a 50's J-45 when I found the '42 (first year for the J-45 which makes it a little special) with just the right issues to keep the price within my budget. It had modern tuners (luckily with the correct footprint) and a few minor dryness cracks. Finish and bridge plate were untouched. After the repairs, I have an iconic guitar, perfect for the singer songwriter stuff I aspire to play. The price was about $6000 including period correct tuners and repairs (by the great Willi Henkes of Antique Acoustics). The whole process of finding the guitar, searching for correct tuners, and having the guitar expertly repaired was one of the most rewarding journeys I have been on as far as this hobby. However, it is risky business, so beware and do your homework. Lars P.S. The Gibson made Kalamazoo line of guitars from the 30-40’s is very price/performance friendly alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 This can be treacherous ground for uninitiated unless you are well heeled enough to buy from one of the big sexy vintage shops or not have to worry about what repairs may run. I am the luckiest SOB on the planet when it comes to scoring pre-War guitars on the cheap but only because I know what I am looking at when I see it (which is not always an easy task as logos and labels are often missing leaving features as the only way to ID the instrument) and am pretty good with spotting condition issues and knowing what repairs will run. On finding them, once you earn a reputation for liking certain kinds of guitars they just tend to find their way to you. I also haunt the back rooms of Mom & Pop music shops where they throw the stuff needing repairs or that they simply cannot figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You don't actually say what you want.....or how much.... Dread? OM? 000? L-00? Etc. Dreads are monstrous prices, fingerpicker a bit less..... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 You don't actually say what you want.....or how much.... Dread? OM? 000? L-00? Etc. Dreads are monstrous prices, fingerpicker a bit less..... BluesKing777. First of all thank you all for your responses.I've been playing for more than 50 years but the few guitars I ever bought were all brand new. I'm no expert on guitar construction. I've tried plenty of modern guitars, but I'm a little worried about adjusting to a really thick or deep V old style neck. I'm a confirmed fingerpicker - a little folk, a little Leo Kotke, a little blues, some Celtic DADGAD... so I'm just fine with a small body. In fact I just got rid of a J-165. How much is open for negotiation (not with the seller - I have to start with my wife first). I don't want to spend more than a few thousand so that kind of leaves me in the O-17 or L-00 territory I suspect and I'm fine with that. I'd rather have an O-17 in decent condition then a much higher value guitar with lots of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 You're in 'pre-war' territory, especially tough with a budget. Good quality guitars are going to be expensive, and you would have to be adept at spotting fixable instruments to get a good break. You're hinting at the need for playability, as you're no spring chicken. This might be your greatest challenge. Tweak up to include the '50's and you'll have a much bigger selection, although I'm sure the good nerds here will be able to guide you better. I would abandon the symbolism and simply find a nice old player in your price range. By the same token, if you were to throw 3 grand my way I might be talked into parting with my '31 L0. By the way, I didn't pick 1940 cause I was born that long ago:) I picked it because its pre-war. I could get into the early 50's and still get one older than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 First of all thank you all for your responses.I've been playing for more than 50 years but the few guitars I ever bought were all brand new. I'm no expert on guitar construction. I've tried plenty of modern guitars, but I'm a little worried about adjusting to a really thick or deep V old style neck. I'm a confirmed fingerpicker - a little folk, a little Leo Kotke, a little blues, some Celtic DADGAD... so I'm just fine with a small body. In fact I just got rid of a J-165. How much is open for negotiation (not with the seller - I have to start with my wife first). I don't want to spend more than a few thousand so that kind of leaves me in the O-17 or L-00 territory I suspect and I'm fine with that. I'd rather have an O-17 in decent condition then a much higher value guitar with lots of issues. I have been lucky to get a 1937 Gibson L-0 and a 1944 Martin 0-17. While not cheap, they aren't on monstrous dread money territory. Rest easy if you have a nice luthier/guitar tech handy to check and fix. I bought my L-0 cheap with the intent of fixing and after a neck set, new fretboard, frets, bridge, nut saddle, tuners etc....we are delirious! The Martin 0-17 was fixed for sale by Elderly and not needing anymore, but cost more...... Are you going to get to play some before buying? Other cheaper options are a 50s LG3 or LG2 Gibsons or 50s 00-17 Martins. Or you could try the Waterloos by Collings or other modern reissues. BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 I have been lucky to get a 1937 Gibson L-0 and a 1944 Martin 0-17. While not cheap, they aren't on monstrous dread money territory. Rest easy if you have a nice luthier/guitar tech handy to check and fix. I bought my L-0 cheap with the intent of fixing and after a neck set, new fretboard, frets, bridge, nut saddle, tuners etc....we are delirious! The Martin 0-17 was fixed for sale by Elderly and not needing anymore, but cost more...... Are you going to get to play some before buying? Other cheaper options are a 50s LG3 or LG2 Gibsons or 50s 00-17 Martins. Or you could try the Waterloos by Collings or other modern reissues. BluesKing777. I just started down this antique road a couple days ago so haven't spent much time looking yet. There are quite a number of Martins and Gibsons on Reverb, but I would certainly like to try some of these out before buying. There aren't too many places around where you can find even 1 guitar that old, nevermind a couple different ones. You can't walk into the local GC or Sam Ash and find these things. I live a an hour east of New York City and there is 1 place there that has a couple. They are mostly very high quality and too expensive to buy but at least I can get of sense of whether the idea of playing a 100 year old guitar is as much fun in practice as it is in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Remember that you can buy anything from GC website and have shipped to your local, look it over and if you don't like it return it on the spot or take up to 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Never say never. I found my last pre-War guitar sticking out of trash can. Incredibly rare instrument. I spent just under $500 fixing it up but considering what it would sell for it was more than worth it. You might check with a store with the odd name of Bob's Used Guitars (Bob is actually the name of his dog) in Ohio. They have an eBay store. The reason I mention them is the owner is a real straight shooter. Honest Ron in Oklahoma City is a very old friend and sometimes gets in vintage stuff. It is really hit or miss though. He is a builder so everything he gets in leaves fully repaired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I'll bet you'll do alright in this search, now that we know you aren't an ancient mariner looking for an ancient mariner. I'm 63 and have been more or less playing for 50 as well, the perfect age to begin to enjoy the impending downward spiral of your physical condition and playing skills. An L0/L00 or 017 isn't a compromise. One of my favorite little players was a '57 Guild M20. Like many others I regret selling it. Can't find one anywhere now. I've had great luck for the most part buying sight unseen with lots of asking. Bet this one's fun... http://www.ebay.com/itm/272127603582?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2661&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Plenty, plenty of fish out there in the sea. Good luck. Hope it's fun for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Love my L-0 and 0-17 first up. Second up, they are not that 'loud'. I tend to pick them up after midnight...hey, that's a tune. Not much hair to hang down these days ... Or early morning when things are quiet, or in a smaller room... Neither are my first choice for dadgad - Martin OM with longer scale are better for that. BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB Brown Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 If you live an hour east of NY City, make a trip to Lark Street music in Teaneck NJ. Buzzy, owner, has lots of vintage guitars and hes good about letting you play them. He's very knowledgeable too. Check out his website. http://www.larkstreetmusic.com Call ahead before you go to make sure he will be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Yep...don't forget an extra lifejacket for the guitar. Yuk yuk. If you're out L.I. way you're in a high retail zone so you may have to wander to less affluent areas, and there's no easier way than the internet. Most good dealers understand the 'test drive' concept, and you can limit buying on sites like Reverb and Ebay to sellers who offer returns. Still plenty to pick from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I've got an Oahu guitar that is over 70 years old. I paid 250 for it around 7-8 years ago. I keep it on the wall in a finished basement. Play it when I'm down there, if there's nothing else there to play at the time. It's okay for what it is. Nothing wrong with it. Body is good. Neck straight. Stays in-tune. Definitely doesn't sound as good as my other guitars, but then I don't know if it ever did, even when it was new. I guess it's just the idea of owning a guitar that is older than I am. To be totally honest with you, I could have spent the 250 in a better way. I'm just not a huge old guitar fan. Sure, I appreciate the history and mojo and all that, but an old guitar is an old guitar and unless I were a guy who could buy guitars, refurbish them and then sell them for a profit (and I'm definitely not that) I'd rather have a newer instrument. Certainly there are gems to be found in old guitars, but it helps to know and understand what you are looking-for and what you are getting. If someone told me "here's Bob Dylan's J50. It's yours for 20,000." I would never spend that kind of money on a guitar, unless I could immediately sell it for more. Then you've got situations like Zombywolf mentions. I wouldn't pass that up. My wife and I like to frequent the occasional garage sale. I always keep my eyes open for old instruments. You never know what you might find for literally nothing. ....Just my view. Doesn't make me right and someone else wrong. I hope you find what you're after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I've got an Oahu guitar that is over 70 years old. I paid 250 for it around 7-8 years ago. I keep it on the wall in a finished basement. Play it when I'm down there, if there's nothing else there to play at the time. It's okay for what it is. Nothing wrong with it. Body is good. Neck straight. Stays in-tune. Definitely doesn't sound as good as my other guitars, but then I don't know if it ever did, even when it was new. I guess it's just the idea of owning a guitar that is older than I am. Some of the Oahu guitars though are amazing and among the best sounding instruments I have ever played out there. They were far from cheap in the day. The top of their "jumbo" line cost a whopping $150 in the 1930s. I have an early 1930s factory roundneck (most were made with a square neck) Oahu. 00 size, X braced with a deep "Nick Lucas" maple body. Not all that easy to find but well worth the trouble to hunt down. They appear with both the Kay Kraft and Oahu monikers. If you want one on the cheap, you can often find the square neck models with the roundneck conversion which can be purchased for about 1/2 the price of a factory roundneck. You just have to stick with instruments made before 1935 as the line got slimmer bodies and ladder bracing that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 I'll bet you'll do alright in this search, now that we know you aren't an ancient mariner looking for an ancient mariner. I'm 63 and have been more or less playing for 50 as well, the perfect age to begin to enjoy the impending downward spiral of your physical condition and playing skills. An L0/L00 or 017 isn't a compromise. One of my favorite little players was a '57 Guild M20. Like many others I regret selling it. Can't find one anywhere now. I've had great luck for the most part buying sight unseen with lots of asking. Bet this one's fun... http://www.ebay.com/...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Plenty, plenty of fish out there in the sea. Good luck. Hope it's fun for you. Something to look forward to. At least it will take a while before anyone notices any drop in my playing skills seeing as how they aren't all that high to start with. We'l see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 If you live an hour east of NY City, make a trip to Lark Street music in Teaneck NJ. Buzzy, owner, has lots of vintage guitars and hes good about letting you play them. He's very knowledgeable too. Check out his website. http://www.larkstreetmusic.com Call ahead before you go to make sure he will be there. Thanks for that name - Teaneck is only a few minutes farther than Manhatten so I'll keep it in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 On my drive home before, I thought how nice my 59 LG3 was on my little holiday weekend and then I thought to tell you to start your search with a 50s LG2 or LG3 that you can afford..... Just excellent. BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsharp Posted February 14, 2016 Author Share Posted February 14, 2016 On my drive home before, I thought how nice my 59 LG3 was on my little holiday weekend and then I thought to tell you to start your search with a 50s LG2 or LG3 that you can afford..... Just excellent. BluesKing777. I guess I'm a bit predisposed to the smaller Martins and I'm not even sure why - maybe because I've never owned a Martin. I will try to keep an open mind. I really need to get out and try a couple. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I know this is blasphemous here, but I'll agree with you. But only by a fret wire... Martin and Gibsons are different animals and once you get your ears attuned to both and apply your playing styles it gives you twice as much to work with. I find that with a little finessing and variations in my approach to the two I get more different shades of tone out of a Gibson acoustic. Viva le dif! Now get out there and open up that wallet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I know this is blasphemous here, but I'll agree with you. But only by a fret wire... Martin and Gibsons are different animals and once you get your ears attuned to both and apply your playing styles it gives you twice as much to work with. I find that with a little finessing and variations in my approach to the two I get more different shades of tone out of a Gibson acoustic. Viva le dif! Now get out there and open up that wallet! I think JZ is saying you need both! Same as 50s Gibsons, 50s Martins like a nice 00-18/00-17 could be a good start to try, before venturing to the deep end of the pool. (the small Martins from the mid 30s have the much wanted 1 3/4' nut and scalloped bracing, and about 1939 it was changed) BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Yeah...one of each is quite gratifying. Hey BK, it's awful quiet in the forum today. Do you think all the Gringos are out wining and dining their respective Valentines? It builds points for when the FedEx truck rolls up with another guitar box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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