vonreimer Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Hello, I'm new to the forum and recently acquired a very nice 1966 L5 Cutaway Cherry Sunburst that has a McCarty Pickguard with a single pickup. I was told by a tech at Willie's Guitars in St. Paul that because the screws used on the pickguard are slotted that it was probably added after it left Gibson. All images that I can find of this pickguard show slotted screws, no phillips screws as are used on this guitar. My understanding is that the phillip screw was utilized after some date in the 1950's. The guitar is all correct, no changes, other than perhaps the pickguard. Sounds like the McCarty pickguard could be ordered up to the late 60's which would make the guitar correct in this setup right from Gibson. It's a Custom, 25.5" scale length So the question is, did Gibson only use slotted screws on these pickguards through it's entire life span? Did they manufacture a bunch of these and use up them up attaching them to custom order guitars regardless of when the pickguard was made? I hate to change it to a reproduction guard just trying to return the guitar to its original state if it indeed was supplied with the McCarty from Gibson. Here is a photo. The standoff for the pickguard at the neck does not seem to be original, that makes me wonder. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I can't answer to the question about the screws, but wanted to comment on what a beauty that guitar is!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Hello, I'm new to the forum and recently acquired a very nice 1966 L5 Cutaway Cherry Sunburst that has a McCarty Pickguard with a single pickup. I was told by a tech at Willie's Guitars in St. Paul that because the screws used on the pickguard are slotted that it was probably added after it left Gibson. All images that I can find of this pickguard show slotted screws, no phillips screws as are used on this guitar. My understanding is that the phillip screw was utilized after some date in the 1950's. The guitar is all correct, no changes, other than perhaps the pickguard. Sounds like the McCarty pickguard could be ordered up to the late 60's which would make the guitar correct in this setup right from Gibson. It's a Custom, 25.5" scale length So the question is, did Gibson only use slotted screws on these pickguards through it's entire life span? Did they manufacture a bunch of these and use up them up attaching them to custom order guitars regardless of when the pickguard was made? I hate to change it to a reproduction guard just trying to return the guitar to its original state if it indeed was supplied with the McCarty from Gibson. Here is a photo. The standoff for the pickguard at the neck does not seem to be original, that makes me wonder. Thanks Hey.. if you don't need the pickup and guard.. Ill buy it from you.. I have a good use for it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 ... it was probably added after it left Gibson. It is also my opinion that the McCarty pickguard is a non-factory modification to this guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 Thanks, this is what I thought but I'm still wondering about the pickguard itself, whether or not they changed the screws at some point during manufacturing to phillips from slotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Just opinion: Regardless of if it left the factory that way, or if added later, what is on there now would be the most "original" to the guitar you could get. Look at it this way: IF you were to discover a more "proper" screw type, you would just be replacing screws again, making an additional change. For answers you don't have (in this case, what screws it should have), often times what the guitar has on it tells a more accurate story than getting another story and making the guitar conform to it. For this guitar, when and who and how the guard was added IS the story, so leaving it as-is is likely the most original it will ever be from this point. I would make a guess, (partly based on the screws), that the guard was added on close to the time the guitar was new, using and existing "factory" guard from whatever period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 I love how it sounds and probably won't change it anyway. However did they originally attach the standard pickguard through the top of the body like was done here or did the upper mount have a glued on block to the under side of the guard that attached with a screw into the side of the neck? I don't see a hole in the neck edge so I assume this is how they were mounted and the McCarty was added using the same hole. The guard is a little warped but it still stands far away enough from the strings to get great sound. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I love how it sounds and probably won't change it anyway. However did they originally attach the standard pickguard through the top of the body like was done here or did the upper mount have a glued on block to the under side of the guard that attached with a screw into the side of the neck? I don't see a hole in the neck edge so I assume this is how they were mounted and the McCarty was added using the same hole. The guard is a little warped but it still stands far away enough from the strings to get great sound. Thanks I think you are on to something there. VERY good question. I don't know, but I THINK a standard guard for '66 would be as you described- through the side of the fingerboard. If it is supposed to be that way, and it isn't, I think it's a slim chance an L-5 in '66 would have left the factory without a guard at all. I am not experienced in the "McCarty" PG's, so I don't know screw types or mounts. But I might say, they were more popular for L-7's, as the L-7 wasn't available as a CES model. You might google and see how those were mounted in that era for some more clues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted February 28, 2016 Author Share Posted February 28, 2016 So you are saying that it should not have left the factory without a guard but since there is no hole perhaps it was ordered without a guard? The research I've done so far on Google images shows it both ways, through the body with a screw showing on the top of the guard and no screw which you assume is through the neck, but you really don't know the originality of the guitar you are viewing. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermoon Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 by the time this guitar was made, Gibson was screwing their standard tortise type plastic guards w/a Phillips screw into the top. and yes, they were probably using old stock McCarty gurads occasionally. btw, 'custom' doesn't mean anything on L-5's and Super 400's. and after the 1930's they were all 25.5" scale length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted February 29, 2016 Author Share Posted February 29, 2016 by the time this guitar was made, Gibson was screwing their standard tortise type plastic guards w/a Phillips screw into the top. and yes, they were probably using old stock McCarty gurads occasionally. btw, 'custom' doesn't mean anything on L-5's and Super 400's. and after the 1930's they were all 25.5" scale length. I was told that the L5 was a non-cutaway and a Custom was a cutaway model as the only cutaway was a L5CES. The label only says L5. There is a roundish white plastic stand-off under the guard at the top, I assume that it is not original and the McCarty guard was added afterwords or someone modified it or lost the original stand-off. Shouldn't it be black or tortoise? Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermoon Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I was told that the L5 was a non-cutaway and a Custom was a cutaway model as the only cutaway was a L5CES. The label only says L5. There is a roundish white plastic stand-off under the guard at the top, I assume that it is not original and the McCarty guard was added afterwords or someone modified it or lost the original stand-off. Shouldn't it be black or tortoise? Thanks for the info. no, the cutaway acoustic model was originally called a 'Premier' from inception in 1939 until 1948, then it was renamed L-5C, 'C' for cutaway. but Gibson would sometimes leave the 'C' off, depending on who was writing the label info. so you'll see some guitars simple labeled L-5 like yours. again, 'custom' means nothing here. and yes the tortise guards usually had a black or tortise riser under the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Beautiful guitar, vonreimer. My L5 is also a '66, custom ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup. The label simply says "L5N". They were never meticulous (to say the least) about labeling details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 ... There is a roundish white plastic stand-off under the guard at the top, I assume that it is not original and the McCarty guard was added afterwords or someone modified it or lost the original stand-off. Shouldn't it be black or tortoise? A white nylon bushing is the standard "standoff" for which the screw that fastens the fingerboard tip of the pickguard goes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Thanks, it is a very poorly finished piece of nylon which is why I wondered if it was original. So maybe the McCarty was ordered with the guitar and it never had a standard guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Whether your L5 left the factory with the McCarty or not really makes little difference, even in terms of the guitar's collectability/value. It's an accessory. If it originally had just a tortoiseshell guard, the chances are pretty good that it would have decomposed/deteriorated/gassed out by now, and its absence would not de-value the guitar. So why would the addition of a McCarty de-value a guitar? It doesn't. As for screws and bushings and such, those things can be inadvertently changed out by owners or their repairmen, so they don't necessarily prove anything about the originality of the part they're attaching. I've seen plenty of 60's L5C's with McCarty's and without. Either way they're great guitars and their values will not really differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Beautiful guitar, vonreimer. My L5 is also a '66, custom ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup. The label simply says "L5N". They were never meticulous (to say the least) about labeling details. Incredible!! I love natural finished guitars. I built this one a few years back using Robert Benedetto's book and DVD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonreimer Posted March 1, 2016 Author Share Posted March 1, 2016 Whether your L5 left the factory with the McCarty or not really makes little difference, even in terms of the guitar's collectability/value. It's an accessory. If it originally had just a tortoiseshell guard, the chances are pretty good that it would have decomposed/deteriorated/gassed out by now, and its absence would not de-value the guitar. So why would the addition of a McCarty de-value a guitar? It doesn't. As for screws and bushings and such, those things can be inadvertently changed out by owners or their repairmen, so they don't necessarily prove anything about the originality of the part they're attaching. I've seen plenty of 60's L5C's with McCarty's and without. Either way they're great guitars and their values will not really differ. Thanks, it will stay the way it is and be played with love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Whether your L5 left the factory with the McCarty or not really makes little difference, even in terms of the guitar's collectability/value. It's an accessory. If it originally had just a tortoiseshell guard, the chances are pretty good that it would have decomposed/deteriorated/gassed out by now, and its absence would not de-value the guitar. So why would the addition of a McCarty de-value a guitar? It doesn't. As for screws and bushings and such, those things can be inadvertently changed out by owners or their repairmen, so they don't necessarily prove anything about the originality of the part they're attaching. I've seen plenty of 60's L5C's with McCarty's and without. Either way they're great guitars and their values will not really differ. That's what I was wondering. I'm sure you have more experience than I, but I was under the impression that an L-5 with a McCarty was rare, but common on L-7's. Not for all, rather for 60's in particular. More specific: McCarty's seen on many L-5's until the L-5CES, then common on the L-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Thanks, it will stay the way it is and be played with love. There you go. Enjoy it. In the 1980's, I had a 1961 Super400CN with a McCarty. I never really liked the sound of it, and I always wondered whether it was just that particular example, or whether the design was not to my preferences (I never had an opportunity to try another McCarty after that). Kudos on your workmanship on the Benedetto-style archtop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 by the time this guitar was made, Gibson was screwing their standard tortise type plastic guards w/a Phillips screw into the top. A white nylon bushing is the standard "standoff" for which the screw that fastens the fingerboard tip of the pickguard goes through. I learned something there. Didn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 That's what I was wondering. I'm sure you have more experience than I, but I was under the impression that an L-5 with a McCarty was rare, but common on L-7's. Not for all, rather for 60's in particular. More specific: McCarty's seen on many L-5's until the L-5CES, then common on the L-7. Definitely more commonly found on L7's, since they (as you mentioned) never had built-in pickups as a stock feature. When the L7 was offered as the "L7CE", it was of course with the McCarty units. I suppose that L5's with McCarty's could be referred to as "relatively rare" (as compared to standard L5C's without pickups, and of course L5CES's). But I've seen enough of them that they don't seem terribly rare in that form. I'm just going from memory here, but oddly enough I want to say that most of the L5's with McCarty's that I've seen were from the 1960's, as opposed to the 50's (the decade immediately following the introduction of the McCarty pickup). Perhaps it took awhile for the popularity of the various DeArmond floaters on fine acoustic archtops to be challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 A white nylon bushing is the standard "standoff" for which the screw that fastens the fingerboard tip of the pickguard goes through. I learned something there. Didn't know that. Mine is black, and I can't say that I've seen more of one than the other. Of course, I believe Larry's L5 is from the 70's. At any rate, I wouldn't have thought that one color would necessarily have been standard, consistently, forever. Not for a part that's basically hidden from sight. In terms of keeping it subtle and less noticeable, I would have thought that black would have been their preferred option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Beautiful guitar, vonreimer. My L5 is also a '66, custom ordered with a Charlie Christian pickup. The label simply says "L5N". They were never meticulous (to say the least) about labeling details. Beautiful.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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