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Reaming for Grovers / 2014 LP Standard


lbrusso

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OK, so I've tried to embrace the Min-Etune system on my 2014 LP Standard, but the thing has got to go. I also have a 2013 LP Standard that came with Grover Locking Rotomatic tuners, and they work great, so that is what I would like to go with. Most of the threads that I have seen about replacing the e-tune contraption with manual tuners, the poster used Kluson style tuners and they apparently fit the holes in the headstock without modification.

The threads that I've seen about replacing Klusons with Grovers say that the holes for the Klusons are tapered and recommend using a tapered reamer to accommodate the .391 base of the Grovers, but I haven't found anyone that has replaced the e-tune unit with Grovers.

The holes in my headstock will require reaming for certain, but the bore on the e-tune machine heads are straight walled.

Anyone have experience installing Grover Rotomatics on a Les Paul with Min-eTune machines?

 

Thanks,

Larry

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What should I replace my Min-eTune with?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to go ahead and put this here too as it is relevant to the subject. [thumbup]

 

 

There is no question that the Min-eTune is not for everyone. If you're one of those folks don't let the new contraption put you off of buying a new Gibson. Removing the Min-eTune is simple and there are lots of redalt available tuners on the market to suit your needs.

 

Here are my top 4 choices for replacing the Min-eTune system on your guitar.

 

The first choice for me are the Gibson Deluxe tuners. These are light weight and traditional tuners for a Les Paul. I think the white keys accent the inlays nicely too. They have a 14:1 gear ratio and are lighter than the Min-eTune system so they might lesson some neck dive issues.

 

5844_zps82ab33a6.jpg

 

My second choice would be the Grover 102G Rotomatic tuners. These are more modern tuners with an 18:1 gear ratio that many players prefer. They also use a mounting hole that is in a traditional spot for Gibson tuners which can become important should you ever decide to sell the guitar. That's a plus. On the down side they are heavier than the Min-eTune system which may lead to a slight increase neck dive.

m726QMWOqc9akL2CH8wwDtw_zpsff1edda0.jpg

 

My third recommendation would be the Grover 502C Roto-Grip Locking Rotomatic. These are the same as the 102G tuners above but they have a knob on the back to lock the string to the post. This can make for faster string changes and can help with tuning stability. While that shouldn't be an issue with a non trem guitar they can help should you decide to add a Bigsby or StatsBar someday. The added function means they DO weight more than all the other options we have looked at here so keep that in mind.

m6uwuGPKXSqcCfwGv_mtHvQ_zpse2d3b5a8.jpg

 

And finally we have these which are again made by Grover. In fact they are the 102 series tuners we talked about before but with a different button on them.

NEW-Gibson-Modern-3x3-GOLD-METAL-BUTTONS_zps9d558046.jpg

 

So, it all depends on what your after. All of these tuners can be installed without having to bore out the peg holes. All that will be required is that you pilot drill the small screw holes for the mounting screws. And since all of them use traditional mounting screw positions this would minimise devaluing the guitars resale value due to "crazy mods". Most would see installing these tuners as reasonable mods.

 

Hope this helps. [thumbup]

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Searcy,

The locking Grovers will not fit in the holes left by the Min-eTune without reaming. The min-etune system uses .340 holes, and the Grovers are .391. Also, the holes in the headstock are straight walled, so if you want to use the Grovers, you'll need to ream the holes with a step reamer.

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Out of curiosity, how much does a etune weigh? Im always puzzled how something so small (and light) can apparently cause 'neck dive'. Can that really happen on a 8-9lb lump of wood hanging round your neck with a decent strap?

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Searcy,

The locking Grovers will not fit in the holes left by the Min-eTune without reaming. The min-etune system uses .340 holes, and the Grovers are .391. Also, the holes in the headstock are straight walled, so if you want to use the Grovers, you'll need to ream the holes with a step reamer.

 

Not if you use the Grover 502C Roto-Grip Locking Rotomatic. It's a direct replacement. No drilling or reaming needed.

 

 

 

Grover Roto-Grip Locking Rotomatic (502 Series) 3+3 Tuners

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Out of curiosity, how much does a etune weigh? Im always puzzled how something so small (and light) can apparently cause 'neck dive'. Can that really happen on a 8-9lb lump of wood hanging round your neck with a decent strap?

 

The min etune weighs less than a set of Grover 102G Rotomatic and a lot less than a set of 502C Roto-Grip. So if neck dive was an issue with the min Etune it will be worst with the Grovers.

 

Here's some more information.

 

 

Everything you ever wanted to know about Gibson Min-eTune

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I'm afraid you are mistaken, that is exactly the set I have, and they won't even begin to enter the peg hole, not even close.

If you'd check the specs, you'd see that the headstock on a 2014 Les Paul Standard with Min-eTune has .340 holes, I think even Tronical shows the same spec in all of their drawings and templates. The Grovers are .390 by their drawing (shown on the product link that you provided), and mine measure a tad over that at.391.

Im sure there may be some applications where you are correct, but in my case, the original poster, you are not.

I have them, measured them, talked to the folks at Gibson and Stewart MacDonald, which is where I ordered the step reamer from, which by the way, is designed for just this purpose.

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I'm afraid you are mistaken, that is exactly the set I have, and they won't even begin to enter the peg hole, not even close.

If you'd check the specs, you'd see that the headstock on a 2014 Les Paul Standard with Min-eTune has .340 holes, I think even Tronical shows the same spec in all of their drawings and templates. The Grovers are .390 by their drawing (shown on the product link that you provided), and mine measure a tad over that at.391.

Im sure there may be some applications where you are correct, but in my case, the original poster, you are not.

I have them, measured them, talked to the folks at Gibson and Stewart MacDonald, which is where I ordered the step reamer from, which by the way, is designed for just this purpose.

 

Does this mean you already have the Grovers? I presume it cant be the MiniTune as they obviously had to fit.

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Yes, I have the Grovers already. Like I said in my OP, I also have a 2013 LP Standard that came with Grover Locking Rotomatics, which I absolutely love. But when I saw the 2014 in Heritage Cherry SB Anniversary Addition, I picked it up and on the first strum it just rang and felt wonderful. So I thought I'd learn to embrace the Tronical tuner, I'm not a purist at all, I own the guitars that I do to play them. At my age (56), they're for enjoyment, I'll let my grandkids worry about their investment value. Anyway, this Les Paul just didn't have the tone of my other one and I know this will make some of you cringe, but I installed the Seymour Duncan SH-4/SH-2 set, wow what a difference, but the damn thing either wouldn't come to pitch correctly on random strings, or it had G stringidous. I did a fair amount of digging on the ole Interweb, finally found a manual for the contraption, and followed their string replacement procedure to the letter, still the same. I took it to a luthier in Austin and had him clean up the nut, no change.

So as we were talking I remarked that my 2013 LP with the Grovers is a joy, and he's the one who suggested, after a fairly lengthy discussion about a permanent modification to an anniversary addition LP, that I replace the Min-eTune with the Grovers.

I saw a couple of videos of folks doing the swap on an SG, and a bunch of Epiphones, so I figured I could just bag up the robot and stash it away, and ordered the tuners from StewMac. The exact tuners that we have been discussing, and have been shown in photos Searcy posted, the link he provided will take you to them. When they didn't fit, not even close, I started looking for someone who has actually swapped the Min-eTune on a 2014 LP Standard and couldn't find anyone. Like said, SG, bunch of Epiphones and Studios, and some 2015 LPs with the newer version, but not what I have. I have seen posts about swapping Klusons for Grovers, and it seems that a lot of folks use a tapered reamer for that job. But the holes in my headstock are dead straight, not tapered.

Long story short, I finally talked to a luthier in San Antonio who has actually done this, confirmed my measurements, and suggested I call StewMac for the reamer, after admonishing me for making such a change on what could be a very valuable guitar someday, but again, that's the grandkid's problem.

I called StewMac and they knew immediately what I was talking about and sold me the proper reamer for the job. It's designed to ream the peg hole to accommodate the .390 Grovers at their base, but leaves the hole untouched near the peg to provide support around the peg. StewMac has a great picture on their website to illustrate what I'm describing.

The reamer isn't here yet, and the luthier I talked to said it would be an easy job, just go slow and pay attention, but I may still take it to him in the end.

If I really could find a direct replacement that would fit, I may give up the Grovers. I'm going to call Gibson today to ask if they have an option that would be a direct fit. I'm tempted to pull one of the tuners off of my 2013 and do some measuring just to satisfy my curiosity. I'll let ya know how it turns out.

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I've actually swapped a MinEtune out for 102g Grovers before. No reaming was needed. My buddy Ronnie has swapped in Grovers on 3 2014 Les Pauls with no reamers needed.

 

But neither he or I have installed the robo lock Grovers on anything so I guess they are different.

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I've actually swapped a MinEtune out for 102g Grovers before. No reaming was needed. My buddy Ronnie has swapped in Grovers on 3 2014 Les Pauls with no readers needed.

 

But neither he or I have installed the robo lock Grovers on anything so I guess they are different.

 

Again, not to doubt what you are saying, I know you're just trying to be helpful, but if you follow the link that you provided for the Grovers, look at the mechanical drawing for the machine head. You will see they measure .390 at their base, (mine measure .391). If you check a drawing for a 2014 Les Paul Standard with Min-eTune, you'll see the peg holes are roughly 5/16 straight, not tapered. If you want to further dig into the mystery, check Tronical's website www.tronical.com and then go to "Downloads" and scroll down to their template drawings, you will see that the template for installing the Tronical Min-eTune on a Les Paul Standard (template A), calls for straight wall peg holes measuring .340, which do indeed match my robot machines, I think mine measured .313 which is 5/16 for practical purposes.

I can't speak to, nor would I attempt to opine on any other configuration other than what I have in my hand. I'm not a luthier, kitchen table or otherwise, but I'm confident about the measurements that I've taken of the gear I have in my hands, and the technical drawings that I have, they all match perfectly.

 

If I decide to install the Grovers, I may take a series of pics and stick them on my webserver so I can post them here. I don't think you can post photos directly, but rather you have to provide an external tag. I'm confident about what I know to be a fact in this case, so it's not about I told ya so, but perhaps someone else may find themselves in the exact situation and may benefit from what I've learned. I've always been fortunate when asking others for help, and have received a great many life-saver tips over the years, so I see it as a way to keep the karma going. ;-)

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10mm drill bit. Set drill counter clockwise. Drill front and back of all six, you'll note it doesn't really go anywhere, but it gets the holes ready, bevels the edges for you so you don't tear it up. Set drill clockwise. Carefully drill out all six. Install Grovers. This method has worked since 1973 or so.

 

rct

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10mm drill bit. Set drill counter clockwise. Drill front and back of all six, you'll note it doesn't really go anywhere, but it gets the holes ready, bevels the edges for you so you don't tear it up. Set drill clockwise. Carefully drill out all six. Install Grovers. This method has worked since 1973 or so.

 

rct

That's EXACTLY my method!

 

Being a "carpenter", I know it isn't exactly right, but that's what I do!

 

Standard disclaimer: regardless of what "technique" or instruction a guy uses, a man is ALWAYS responsible for his own work.

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Could very well be the case, Gibson guitars from the factory that have mini-tune on them were drilled for Grovers or whatever, as a standard size, and Mini-robo-force or whatever designed and used to fit larger "standard" holes as a matter of smart engineering.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to find Gibsons with self-super-robo-tuners to come in both hole sizes, small spec and big spec for Grovers

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I'm curious if the current robot version is larger?

Is it even made by Tronical, or someone else?

I played the gal tonight, I love this guitar, but the Etune is going for sure.

Does anyone know the specs on the Kluson tuners, they don't have a drawing on their website.

I do like the Grovers better, but still, there's the little nagging voice that doesn't want me to permanently modify this guitar, and I do like the look of Klusons on a LP, and locking tuner pegs is nice, but not a deal breaker. If they'd be a direct bolt on, I might consider them.

Like I said earlier, I bought it to play, and have no intention of selling it. But I still can't get completely right with reaming the headstock.

I didn't get time to call Gibson, will do it tomorrow for sure, and the reamer is going to show up too.

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I was going to suggest looking into Kluson-style, but you seemed to have made up your mind for Grovers.

 

Personally, tuners are SO much better than they used to be that it hardly matters enough to go with Grovers. Although I will admit, the makers and different "specs" of Kluson-style these days makes my head spin.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that the tuning issue appeared after the pup swap. It's been an issue since day one. The only reason I brought up the pup swap was to illustrate that I'm not a purist with regard to keeping a guitar stock. The guitar has always had tuning issues. Along with the tuning issues, the guitar always seemed to be a little lacking in the tone department. But swapping the pups with the SD set fixed that. It's a beast now, full deep tone, great dynamic range, and tons of sustain. So even after the pup swap, the tuning issues remained naturally, and I'm trying to resolve that so I can make this guitar the sweetheart I know it has the potential to be. As I've said, I love the locking Grovers on my 2013, and I may still go that way, I just need to get right with the idea of a permanent change to the guitar.

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I've actually swapped a MinEtune out for 102g Grovers before. No reaming was needed. My buddy Ronnie has swapped in Grovers on 3 2014 Les Pauls with no readers needed.

 

But neither he or I have installed the robo lock Grovers on anything so I guess they are different.

 

 

 

How about tonal differences? I was considering taking my G force off jjust to see if my power chords would improve in their resonance And harmonics.

 

any observations about regular tuners versus G force Changing the tonal properties.

BB

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How about tonal differences? I was considering taking my G force off jjust to see if my power chords would improve in their resonance And harmonics.

 

any observations about regular tuners versus G force Changing the tonal properties.

BB

 

Tuners don't make any tonal difference it tone at all.

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OK, so I have some Crow to eat and then humble pie for desert.

So the luthier that I originally talked to in Austin got back to town, and told me under no circumstances should I put that reamer in my guitar until he looks at it, because the Grovers should fit.

Me: I already tried them, they wont even start in the holes, the Tronicals are .340 the Grovers are .391 blah blah .. sounds familiar right.

Luthier: I know for a fact the headstock is bored 10mm and those Grovers will fit, the Tronicals are in there loose, but because of the way the controller is built, the pegs don't pull over in the holes.

Me: Dude, I'm telling ya, I've measured the holes and ......

Luthier: Below the finish line?

Me: Huh ?????

Luthier: It most cases, a significant amount of finish ends up in the top and bottom of the peg holes that must be cleaned out before they install the machine heads, but because the Tronical barrels are so small, that probably wouldn't have been needed. If you measure below the finish, I think you'll find the holes are indeed 10mm, and if you gently run a straight reamer in there or a 60 degree taper reamer, just to clean out the finish that found it's way into the peg holes, those Grovers will fit just fine.

Me: Hold on a sec, I have a set of snap gauges, and the guitar is on the bench, let me measure the middle of the hole......

Me (returned): So.... how bout that South by Southwest this year ..........

 

Yup, cleaned a little bit of finish out of all of the holes top and bottom, and the Grovers dropped right in... duh...

 

Searcy, you have my most humble and sincere apologies sir, you were right all along. It never occurred to me to measure in the middle of the bore.

 

Not to start a political topic, but the only thing Al Gore ever said that made sense to me was, "It's not the things that ya don't know that are going to get ya. It's the things that you know for sure, that just aren't so."

The Grovers are in, they work great, and the guitar stays in tune.

I just wanted to share what I learned, and to say thanks to those who "tried" to help.

Best,

Larry

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