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Lennon J-160e serial authenticity


KrisMiller

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Got a chance to buy a Lennon J-160e. I'm a bit skeptical however of its authenticity due to the lack of COA, and the case that it comes in. The guy said it was made in 2001. Where there any Lennon J-160e's made that year? Also, the paper sticker in the sound hole doesn't say it's a Lennon. It simply has an 8 digit serial number w/the first 4 being 0116... What do you guys think?

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So, what exactly does the paper sticker say? Got a picture?

Orange sticker. Looks legit but I think the seller is pushing it as a Lennon, when I believe it to be a standard...

 

Sticker says. Style: j-160e and the serial number is 01161049

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The serial number says 2001. Someone else may be able to confirm it is a Lennon or not. I'm not sure what the differences are.

 

More often than not, special issues denote that fact on the label. But not always.

 

Since most people associate the J-160e with the Beatles, that may be what the seller is doing.

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Trying to get him to take a picture facing towards the neck block so I can see the bracing. If it's x bracing instead of ladder I'll know for sure..

 

Just ask him to feel inside the top and tell you. For a picture, you should probably photograph back towards the bridge, I think. You should be able top see an X pretty clearly.

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While my memory resembles swiss cheese I do believe Gibson issued a couple of Lennon J-160Es in the early 2000s. I do not have a clue how closely they resemble an original meaning solid top vs. laminate, X vs. ladder bracing, and P-100 humbucker vs. P-90 single coil.

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Call Bozeman directly on Monday with the serial number. They can tell you. Of course you still need to be sure that it is a genuine Gibson (serial number alone can't tell you that. easy to copy a serial from a real one). But Bozeman can tell you what model that serial is tied to in their system.

 

Don't call the regular 1-800 Customer service line in Nashville... unless you want a slower and possibly less accurate response!

 

 

 

Keith

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Hello!

 

The story behind introducing the 'John Lennon' signature J-160E guitars is a little complex, due to the fact that earlier runs were built under endorsement from Yoko Ono and later runs were without her endorsement. These 'sunburst' models were produced after very extensive analysis, including electronic scanning of Lennon's original...(formerly George Harrison's)...built in 1962 and which Lennon and Harrison received, following shipment to Liverpool.

 

The original Lennon signature guitars were produced in several limited, endorsed runs and for several years...beginning in 1999 and through 2001. (I personally own two of these and my older one has the usual sunburst finish and was built in 2000..it is #343 of 550. I also own one of the later John Lennon signature 'Peace' guitars...#529 of 750...which was built in 2011 and is essentially identical to the sunburst model, excepting its natural spruce top and natural finish mahogany neck, back and sides.)

 

IF you own a genuine Lennon signature guitar, there will be an orange Gibson Montana label which will be printed with 'John Lennon Limited Edition' followed by the number sequence in the series. ALSO...your guitar will have the John Lennon signature truss rod cover and a special hardshell case with the John Lennon signature in gold. Note: Guitars built after 2001 have a different hardshell case and without the Lennon signature on the case lid. Additionally, the guitar will feature LADDER BRACING and a will have a LAMINATED top as well.

 

What is more, each of these John Lennon siganture guitars can INSTANTLY be identified by its unique bridge. Any authentic John Lennon signature guitar will have the original height-adjustable bridge, featuring a corian...(originally ceramic on J-160E guitars built through circa mid-1960s)...bridge saddle. Standard-production J-160E guitars will NOT have this feature..they are instead equipped with a standard, non-adjustable bridge.

 

Each of these limited edition J-160E guitars is furnished with a very unique certificate from Gibson Montana on which is printed 'John Lennon Limited Edition' also carrying his signature, along with the build date and the sequence number in the series. The pickup will be a P-90, NOT a P-100...(they appear very similar but there are certain technical differences.)

 

If your guitar does NOT carry these features, then it is not a genuine John Lennon signature model. Lennon signature guitars with the sunburst finish built between the production years 1999 and 2001 will have Yoko Ono's endorsement on the certificate as well, because she originally endorsed the first several runs of these guitars built during those years...later, she withdrew her endorsement. However, subsequent 'Lennon signature' instruments were produced in limited quantities for some years and with several finish configurations until at least 2012.

 

Not to be confused, there is a similar series built in THREE configurations...sunburst...natural...and white, which do not carry the John Lennon signature on the truss rod cover but instead have it imprinted on the head stock faceplate! (This is a yet different 'limited series' than the 'Lennon' signature guitars which were built 'off and on' between 1999 and 2012.) Admittedly, kinda confusing 'dope'...but isn't that what makes Gibson so interesting?!

 

...Hope you will find this info both helpful and relevant, per your question.

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Hello!

 

The story behind introducing the 'John Lennon' signature J-160E guitars is a little complex, due to the fact that earlier runs were built under endorsement from Yoko Ono and later runs were without her endorsement. These 'sunburst' models were produced after very extensive analysis, including electronic scanning of Lennon's original...(formerly George Harrison's)...built in 1962 and which Lennon and Harrison received, following shipment to Liverpool.

 

The original Lennon signature guitars were produced in several limited, endorsed runs and for several years...beginning in 1999 and through 2001. (I personally own two of these and my older one has the usual sunburst finish and was built in 2000..it is #343 of 550. I also own one of the later John Lennon signature 'Peace' guitars...#529 of 750...which was built in 2011 and is essentially identical to the sunburst model, excepting its natural spruce top and natural finish mahogany neck, back and sides.)

 

IF you own a genuine Lennon signature guitar, there will be an orange Gibson Montana label which will be printed with 'John Lennon Limited Edition' followed by the number sequence in the series. ALSO...your guitar will have the John Lennon signature truss rod cover and a special hardshell case with the John Lennon signature in gold. Note: Guitars built after 2001 have a different hardshell case and without the Lennon signature on the case lid. Additionally, the guitar will feature LADDER BRACING and a will have a LAMINATED top as well.

 

What is more, each of these John Lennon siganture guitars can INSTANTLY be identified by its unique bridge. Any authentic John Lennon signature guitar will have the original height-adjustable bridge, featuring a corian...(originally ceramic on J-160E guitars built through circa mid-1960s)...bridge saddle. Standard-production J-160E guitars will NOT have this feature..they are instead equipped with a standard, non-adjustable bridge.

 

Each of these limited edition J-160E guitars is furnished with a very unique certificate from Gibson Montana on which is printed 'John Lennon Limited Edition' also carrying his signature, along with the build date and the sequence number in the series. The pickup will be a P-90, NOT a P-100...(they appear very similar but there are certain technical differences.)

 

If your guitar does NOT carry these features, then it is not a genuine John Lennon signature model. Lennon signature guitars with the sunburst finish built between the production years 1999 and 2001 will have Yoko Ono's endorsement on the certificate as well, because she originally endorsed the first several runs of these guitars built during those years...later, she withdrew her endorsement. However, subsequent 'Lennon signature' instruments were produced in limited quantities for some years and with several finish configurations until at least 2012.

 

Not to be confused, there is a similar series built in THREE configurations...sunburst...natural...and white, which do not carry the John Lennon signature on the truss rod cover but instead have it imprinted on the head stock faceplate! (This is a yet different 'limited series' than the 'Lennon' signature guitars which were built 'off and on' between 1999 and 2012.) Admittedly, kinda confusing 'dope'...but isn't that what makes Gibson so interesting?!

 

...Hope you will find this info both helpful and relevant, per your question.

I'm going to post the photos he sent me. Please tell me what you think. Thanks

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Nice looking guitar. I have no opinion on the label not saying what it is, but I would expect something on the label or a COA to distinguish it from the standard model.

 

I do have a few special editions and they all have it listed on the label plus some have a COA. A few RI's are ink mark on the neck block as the original would had been with no label.

 

I recently had a J180 Special and had a TR cover made that said Everly.

 

Perhaps if you contact Gibson they could help you.

 

 

 

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Thanks for posting these photos, Kris!

 

Yes, by all appearances this guitar does seem to be the 'real deal'...that is to say, a genuine Lennon signature J-160E. HOWEVER, the sound hole label does not carry Lennon's name nor does it show the year and sequence number in the series and for a genuine 'Lennon' model, that seems strange. Per Dave's comments, you should request of the current owner/seller if there is a 'COA' (Certificate of Authenticity) included with this guitar! A genuine 'John Lennon signature model' includes a 'COA'..(at least the early-run 'endorsed' models did.)

 

Also, in these photos it appears that there is a Gibson Montana final inspection card/warranty certification form...this ought to have the completion date written and signed-off by the inspector. (It is about impossible to discern anything on the card from the photos.) Can you inquire of the owner to provide the completion date, as shown on this document?

 

Short of this information...I would have to venture an educated guess that this guitar is among the 'post-endorsement' examples...(likely built sometime between late 2001 and 2005.) Is it possible that in several production runs...'post-endorsement' Lennon signature guitars, produced after the 2000 model year have a different label 'configuration' and also omitted the 'COA'??? (Curious!)

 

A phone call placed to 'Gibson Montana Customer Service' might clarify this. That is, if you can successfully contact the 'right' individual, one qualified to provide reasonably accurate information on former-production minutiae.

 

Can't tell from the provided photos if Lennon's signature appears in gold on the hardshell case lid??? But if the guitar is post-2000...there likely should not be any. It appears the nickel plating on the tuning machine gear cases is tarnished, which happens naturally over time when the plating is not maintained or if the guitar has been stored in the case for extended periods. The serial number should be stamped into the rear of the headstock...it is almost completely obscured in the photos. It would be interesting to know when the guitar was built and the disposition of documentation apparently missing from the photos, if it even exists. Do you know if this seller is the original owner...and are you able to inquire a little more information, concerning the instrument's origins?

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The guy decided he wants to hold onto it... Kind of suspicious to me. I asked for more pics and he replied with "I don't want to sell it now"... Oh well. Thank you all for your input. If he changes his mind I'll open up this thread again.

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Very suspicious.

 

FYI: Based on the serial number shown in the picture through the sound hole the guitar was built in 2001.

 

S/N 01161049 = 2001, built on the 116th day (April 26th, its 15th birthday is in a couple of days) and was number 49 off the production line that day.

 

Hope this helps.

 

FMA

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The guy decided he wants to hold onto it... Kind of suspicious to me. I asked for more pics and he replied with "I don't want to sell it now"... Oh well. Thank you all for your input. If he changes his mind I'll open up this thread again.

Whenever I ask a seller for more info and he runs, I know there's something wrong. If you're open to repair, GC in Cincinnati OH has a new J160 60's RI for $1599. It has a top crack on the bass side near the neck that should be easily repaired.

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Whenever I ask a seller for more info and he runs, I know there's something wrong. If you're open to repair, GC in Cincinnati OH has a new J160 60's RI for $1599. It has a top crack on the bass side near the neck that should be easily repaired.

Yes, very strange! What was this guy's motive? The guitar appeared to be the real thing. From what could be seen in the photos...only that sound hole label was questionable. But if the dude withdrew the offer, there may have been 'issues' that were not disclosed. Likely a positive outcome for you, anyway.

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One more thing about this guitar...how could this '2001' J-160E possibly be a 'standard' model...when it clearly shows ladder bracing and the adjustable bridge assembly that are characteristics of the 1962 re-issue, limited-edition Lennon signature models?

 

Did Gibson actually build some J-160E standards with those features??? The 'standard' models supposedly were built with solid tops...non-adjustable bridges...and 'X-braced' construction. There were also some more subtle construction and finish differences, not quite so obvious in photos.

 

...Not to mention that the 'Lennon signature' guitars were considerably more costly, came with slightly up-graded hardshell cases and with unique documentation.

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One more thing about this guitar...how could this '2001' J-160E possibly be a 'standard' model...when it clearly shows ladder bracing and the adjustable bridge assembly that are characteristics of the 1962 re-issue, limited-edition Lennon signature models?

 

Did Gibson actually build some J-160E standards with those features??? The 'standard' models supposedly were built with solid tops...non-adjustable bridges...and 'X-braced' construction. There were also some more subtle construction and finish differences, not quite so obvious in photos.

 

...Not to mention that the 'Lennon signature' guitars were considerably more costly, came with slightly up-graded hardshell cases and with unique documentation.

 

 

I can't address your other concerns, but the case shown in the photo is the standard, low-end Gibson slope-J case. It's the same one they still use for guitars like the J-45 standard, but now usually does not have the silk-screened Gibson logo on the top. The case has four latches, blue cat-fur interior, and the plastic handle. That logo has appeared and disappeared at various points in time, but the one shown in the photo does not constitute an "upgraded" case.

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One possible, even likely explanation is that this guitar was built in 2001 but immediately AFTER Yoko Ono pulled her endorsement on the deal and Gibson Montana was then left with some of these guitars still in inventory...so by agreement, they put on a standard label...discontinued providing the 'COA'...used the 'standard' hardshell case and then sold these leftover 'Lennon' J-160Es through their authorized dealer network. Although apparently, they were still 'OK' to install the Lennon signature truss rod covers...(which btw, they likewise used on subsequent runs including the Lennon 'Peace' models, as late as 2012.)

 

...I am speculating here of course, considering this occurred some fifteen years ago. Still, this might logically explain the 'standard' label and lack of related limited-edition documentation for this particular guitar.

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One more thing about this guitar...how could this '2001' J-160E possibly be a 'standard' model...when it clearly shows ladder bracing and the adjustable bridge assembly that are characteristics of the 1962 re-issue, limited-edition Lennon signature models?

 

Did Gibson actually build some J-160E standards with those features??? The 'standard' models supposedly were built with solid tops...non-adjustable bridges...and 'X-braced' construction. There were also some more subtle construction and finish differences, not quite so obvious in photos.

 

...Not to mention that the 'Lennon signature' guitars were considerably more costly, came with slightly up-graded hardshell cases and with unique documentation.

 

 

How can you tell it's ladder braced? The only bracing that shows in the photos is the back bracing, as far as I can tell. Ladder bracing refers to the top bracing.

 

The tuners look like they are relic'd, to me, which is a nice touch. I wouldn't expect them to show that degree of surface "dulling" otherwise.

 

A modern Gibson that does not have a serial number embossed on the back of the headstock would normally have the serial number ink-stamped on the neck block, in addition to being on the paper label. The original Lennon J-160 (not sure what year it was) probably had an embossed serial number on the back of the headstock, which Gibson started doing again in about 1961. It would also have had an orange paper label similar to this one

 

As far as the TRC goes, they're a dime a dozen, so I would read a lot into that. It would also have had an orange oval label similar to the modern one.

 

I'm not a student of the modern J-160 history, but I know there have been several versions built by Gibson Montana over the years. I don't know how consistent the features were over those various re-issues. If it were not for the Beatles connection, I suspect there would not be that much interest in this model.

 

They're pretty neat guitars--just not my particular interest.

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