SG player Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Hi, Here are parts I use to swap the big Nashville to the ABR '59 bridge New ABR '59 bridge , this is a great upgrade for sound, sustain and feeling. What a cool vintage look : My 2012 SG Standard Ltd Edition. The saddles are in the same position than Gibson ABR-1 ones, perfect. Here are the links, Bridge studs : http://www.faberusa.com/product-category/faber-bridge-studs/for-nashville-conversions/faber-insert/ ABR '59 bridges : http://www.faberusa.com/product-category/faber-bridges/faber-abr-59-bridges/ The bridge studs are very well fixed into the body, the result is the same than Gibson ABR-1 bridge with posts screwed into the body Compare Nashville brushing (left) and ABR '59 bridge studs (right) PS: It' s possible to install the ABR '59 bridge on Nashville studs and brushings for a Gibson ABR-1 vintage look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Hello! I am a big fan of the Faber ABRN-1 bridge too. Tough, precisely made to tight tolerances. The posts fill up those awfully huge holes Gibson drilled for those tiny Nashville bushings. Bence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Good upgrade for $140 bucks, bridge with brass saddles, stop-tail and inserts. Good company, I've heard nothing but good about Faber. Hows the sound difference with the brass and titanium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG player Posted April 18, 2016 Author Share Posted April 18, 2016 I don't know how saddles material change the tone and the sound . I tested a light weight stopbar but the result was bad, sound was very flat . More advice ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Im probably the wrong person to ask and my hearing is impaired, but I thought maybe I heard less brightness with the saddles-Brass. Admittedly I have made the change several times with Teles steel and brass compensated in particular. The ST I assume again very subtle but heres a couple threads to read though. Truth be told sometimes the totality of the instrument may be the preferred tone prior to subtle uprades, thats not a uncommon paradox either. Is it different acoustically now? The lightweight tail and saddles bridge can also accumulate to the totality of a better sounding instrument also. But as they are saying below without recording both ways you can fool yourself also. http://www.tdpri.com/threads/brass-saddles-better-tone-i-must-be-tone-deaf.249665/ http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/90927-lightweight-aluminum-stop-tail-piece-fiction/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Hello! I am a big fan of the Faber ABRN-1 bridge too. Tough, precisely made to tight tolerances. The posts fill up those awfully huge holes Gibson drilled for those tiny Nashville bushings. Bence. I could see why, the machine work and the materials are top notch, looks great, super result. What about the tone are you noticing improvement, subtle or well pronounced, whats your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I could see why, the machine work and the materials are top notch, looks great, super result. What about the tone are you noticing improvement, subtle or well pronounced, whats your thoughts? Hello Golden! The tight machining tolerances, - both on the saddles in the bridge unit, and on the studs that go into the body - result improved sustain (better coupling - less loss). And, it was a noticeable improvement. Also, the brass saddles give a more pronounced tone: the notes have a better articulation, separation. This is what we commonly refer to as "less muddy". The tailpiece is stock on the guitar: as far as I am concerned, I prefer a heavier unit over a light-weight one, which is said to result a brighter tone. I am more after fat tone, but without muddiness. Bence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I am more after fat tone, but without muddiness. Works for me. .............and well machined tonally conducive parts done with pride and quality, not loose fitting sloppy pot metal. Right I would say the bridge and post tolerance alone is a significant difference. I don't know enough about the light tails in recorded comparison to the usual production stock Gibson uses today. What is the production stock Stop-Tail made out of? I would have to hear a few and both ways. I have a couple light tails here on my stock ES Gibsons. Some string change I'll record both. I somehow don't think my 339 will sound better but I will check. Could very well surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Works for me. .............and well machined tonally conducive parts done with pride and quality, not loose fitting sloppy pot metal. Right I would say the bridge and post tolerance alone is a significant difference. I don't know enough about the light tails in recorded comparison to the usual production stock Gibson uses today. What is the production stock Stop-Tail made out of? I would have to hear a few and both ways. I have a couple light tails here on my stock ES Gibsons. Some string change I'll record both. I somehow don't think my 339 will sound better but I will check. Could very well surprise me. The production unit is made of ZAMAK (zinc-aluminium-magnesium-copper alloy), or simply: pot-metal, if You like. I can't see how a period-correct replica of a vintage, pure aluminium bridge unit would make any audible difference over it. My approach to tinkering is not to bother with things that work properly. I start modifying parts, that clearly suffer in production quality, and the Nashville bridge is one of these. You can face the problem every time You change the strings. Without the strings on, grab the bridge and shake it: it will rattle. The thumbwheels are very loose in the bushings. Even the bushings are so loose, You can pry them out with Your fingernails. Not to mention the huge hole that is drilled for those tiny bushings! If there is something really matters and worth replacing on a Gibson, it's the Nashville unit and the Corian nut. Best wishes... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Gibson Memphis for example uses Lightweight Nickle Stop Bar Tailpiece with long anchors and studs are on the Memphis line now, and the bridge is either the Tone Pros AVR2 Bridge or Gibsons own design with is solid and similar to Tone Pros but doesn't lock. In which case as I was saying above the Faber is quite a good product. But strictly speaking your talking subtle tone changes. I can't see how a period-correct replica of a vintage, pure aluminium bridge unit would make any audible difference over it. Well from reducing loose parts in studs and saddles and travel, and in both bridge and ST tightening tolerance all the way around to dropping the tail to the body-better machined studs and threading/quality= the sustain has to be affected at least in theory then adding for example brass or rolled steel, nickle for quality etc....you should have in theory a superior not only built but sounding guitar. I would think. Now as I was saying I haven't really A-B'd these back and forth. But it stands to reason. Same theory with Fender Strats and at some point the rolled steel Trems and saddles, and correct anchors etc. Same story really and as above with the Teles and brass/steel saddles, compensation/intonation and bridge and anchor alloy difference. Why, you would contend if I swapped this ST unit below on either Memphis ES it would sound better? It would be cheaper than adding a Faber and testing the SG tails after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Anyway the "Titanium" aspect of the Faber/Gibson parts. Again Fender-Tele in particular this is relevant. http://www.tdpri.com/threads/gotoh-titanium-compensated-saddles.432280/ They asked a good question that I guess nobody has yet answered... In the meantime, anyone tried them, or even have any views on titanium vs steel? I know nothing about the titanium =sound aspect, quality its a give. But this is interesting.... http://www.tdpri.com/threads/titanium-saddles-or-brass.197840/ Might be novel thinking with a popular alloy in titanium being tonal conducive imho. This is good reading too from here with Stop Tails and light aluminum and they did record and then recheck. http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/103408-aluminum-stop-bars/ These fellows also.... http://www.everythingsg.com/threads/aluminum-or-steel-tailpiece.21727/ These are well respected too.... http://www.callahamguitars.com/abr1.htm But its very subjective too........... http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?172959-Stainless-steel-posts-and-Callaham-steel-ABR Fascinating I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG player Posted April 19, 2016 Author Share Posted April 19, 2016 What you read about a Telecaster can be wrong about Gibson SG, those are great guitars but are very different. A lightweight stopbar is fine on a Les Paul but crap on a SG IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Hello again! I have zero experience with Titanium part. I can't comment on that. The stopbar cranked all the way down, raises a couple of questions though. I personally set them so, that the angle of the strings from the stopbar towards the bridge is the same, as from the nut towards the tuning posts (cca. 17 degrees). If it's all the way down, it will transfer string resonation to the body better due to the better coupling. However, doing so some harmonic overtones will be wiped out. That's the price to pay for the sustain. Is it worth? We are talking about tiny nuances. It is really up to each player's preferences. Also, it has been reported many times, that the stopbar all the way down puts excessive forces on the bridge unit and it's posts (almost exclusively on vintage guitars with ABR-1 units), resulting bent posts and collapsed bridges. Bence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 What you read about a Telecaster can be wrong about Gibson SG, Brass saddles are brass saddles and the quality as said above does matter. All good info and relevant too, as is the titanium, and the zinc and lead content. A lightweight stopbar is fine on a Les Paul but crap on a SG IMHO. Yes and on your SG that may be true but others do feel differently. Myself I don't know, all interesting reading though. http://www.everythingsg.com/threads/aluminum-or-steel-tailpiece.21727/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Hello again! I have zero experience with Titanium part. I can't comment on that. The stopbar cranked all the way down, raises a couple of questions though. I personally set them so, that the angle of the strings from the stopbar towards the bridge is the same, as from the nut towards the tuning posts (cca. 17 degrees). If it's all the way down, it will transfer string resonation to the body better due to the better coupling. However, doing so some harmonic overtones will be wiped out. That's the price to pay for the sustain. Is it worth? We are talking about tiny nuances. It is really up to each player's preferences. Also, it has been reported many times, that the stopbar all the way down puts excessive forces on the bridge unit and it's posts (almost exclusively on vintage guitars with ABR-1 units), resulting bent posts and collapsed bridges. I have had all of my stop bar/tailpiece guitars with the bar all the way down for my entire life of guitar playing, since 1971. I've owned dozens of such guitars and gigged them an awful lot, including my current 16 year old Les Paul. No bridge has ever bent or collapsed on me, no guitar player I know has ever had that happen, and the guy that fixes mine when they need a pro is the same age as me and we were in the same bands at different times in the 70s has only seen one in his entire career as a full time professional luthier. The internet saga of collapsed or bent bridges is the result of a crappy cast of that bridge, not where the stop bar was. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I personally set them so, that the angle of the strings from the stopbar towards the bridge is the same, as from the nut towards the tuning posts (cca. 17 degrees). If it's all the way down, it will transfer string resonation to the body better due to the better coupling. However, doing so some harmonic overtones will be wiped out. That's the price to pay for the sustain. Is it worth? We are talking about tiny nuances. Is it really up to each player's preferences. Also, it has been reported many times, that the stopbar all the way down put excessive forces on the bridge unit and it's posts (almost exclusively on vintage guitars with ABR-1 units), resulting bent posts and collapsed bridges. 17 degrees I agree with. I'm a little uncertain about the However, doing so some harmonic overtones will be wiped out. The 17 simply may vary in QC and in effect cause the ST to be lower or higher. The ABR though also hand resting in the past was part of the reason for post issues. Probably why the Nashville may have been considered an upgrade I would imagine, that and the retaining wire. http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/78199-common-misconception/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I have had all of my stop bar/tailpiece guitars with the bar all the way down for my entire life of guitar playing, since 1971. I've owned dozens of such guitars and gigged them an awful lot, including my current 16 year old Les Paul. No bridge has ever bent or collapsed on me, no guitar player I know has ever had that happen, and the guy that fixes mine when they need a pro is the same age as me and we were in the same bands at different times in the 70s has only seen one in his entire career as a full time professional luthier. The internet saga of collapsed or bent bridges is the result of a crappy cast of that bridge, not where the stop bar was. rct Hello RCT. Good for You, then. Just by googling on the topic, You will find lots of cases. I can't prove whether it's due to "crappy cast" or the tailpiece pressure. When, I comment about things I have no personal experience with, I make sure my statements come from reputable sources, like luthiers with long decades of experiences, or blogs/articles of fine guitar magazines and repair shops. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 ... The ABR though also hand resting in the past was part of the reason for post issues. Probably why the Nashville may have been considered an upgrade I would imagine, that and the retaining wire. ... Might be. The Nashville unit itself is better than the ABR-1, due to longer travel range of saddles, and the better fixation of the adjustment screws. But the posts and bushings...well, they are terrible. Bence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 Might be. The Nashville unit itself is better than the ABR-1, due to longer travel range of saddles, and the better fixation of the adjustment screws. But the posts and bushings...well, they are terrible. Bence I think we should recommend a 2017 upgrade in this area from Gibson and a closer look at the alloys being used with stricter QC inspection. Bence you might be contributing to the betterment of Gibsons 2017 line, How do you feel about that today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 I think we should recommend a 2017 upgrade in this area from Gibson and a closer look at the alloys being used with stricter QC inspection. Bence you might be contributing to the betterment of Gibsons 2017 line, How do you feel about that today? I feel great. :mellow: That's what I do on daily basis: complain about everything. Our management, and the customers call that "value added". Then, in 1% of cases, they consider my suggestions. Never got a penny for it. Bence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 19, 2016 Share Posted April 19, 2016 How about top wrapping? http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/105921-any-top-wrappers-on-the-forum/ No 17 degree break angle but I think with the traps that varies also. Difference in string tension and acoustic vibration. Heres the Trapeze thinking which would be similar in break angle physics. Which I agree the break is a sequence function of the neck first which produces the bridge height and ultimately the Stop Tail height and the 17 degree paradigm or closeness to that, some of which can be mitigated by a thinner bridge with less travel but it also still needs proper intonation regardless of travel length with better tolerance of saddle movement. http://www.es-335.org/2011/11/01/the-curious-break-angle/ I usually lower the stoptail as far as I can without the strings touching the back of the bridge. If that isn’t all the way, it’s a function of the neck angle, not the break angle. The shallower the neck angle, the lower the bridge, the lower the stop can go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 So SG I would have to conclude after this chat and a bit of reading that the same principles MUST apply to the Stop-Tail... inserts-bushings-posts- and threading-and the material its machined from etc. Stands to reason right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGgypsyboy Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Nice conversion! Just in case anyone wants to keep the Nashville style yet wants a serious upgrade...There is a higher quality alternative to the z-mac pot metal nashville in either a version machined from solid steel or aluminum that have better tolerances. I have not noticed any post wobble when the strings are off: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121326494743?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pinnacle-Machined-Aluminum-Nashville-TOM-guitar-bridge-for-Gibson-LP-SG-Chrome-/121756502767?hash=item1c5940caef:g:UuEAAOSw9r1V8e7r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG player Posted April 21, 2016 Author Share Posted April 21, 2016 ABR '59 bridge on a Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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