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Gibson ES355TD dating


Michael Breeman

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All we still have here is "he said, she said".

Very true. Local guitar repairmen may not always be serious Gibson enthusiasts, as those of us here are. I've lost count of how many times people have posted erroneous things here that were told to them by their local guitar shop.

 

I'm still curious about potentiometer codes, which is a hard documentation.

Yes.

 

As many of us here have made the time and effort in this thread for the OP, I would like to see the OP make the time and effort to retrieve and furnish the potentiometer codes, verify the existance (or not) of a "Made In USA" stamp and/or headstock volute. There is no way to put an accurate (and truthful) mfg date on this guitar without this information.

Strongly agree.

 

Or...... is this a case of not wanting to know the facts, as it might contradict the legend.

Indeed, we've seen this occur around here many times also.

 

Getting the pot codes may be a little bothersome, but looking at the rear of the headstock and answering the above questions isn't a lot to ask.

 

The label inside your guitar didn't exist in 1968. Not sure why you seem to be ignoring this fact, or maybe you missed it along with the multiple requests for info about the rear of your headstock?

 

Perhaps the TP6 is not original to the guitar, which could put it pre-1978 after all, but it's not a 60's guitar. I have no idea what's up with the serial number, but the features of the guitar eliminate the possibility that it dates to the 1960's, and certainly not as early (1962) as the serial number would indicate.

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Just cause I was curious, I did a little web searching.

 

It seems the Walnut finish dates it at least '69, although the ES-330 started a year earlier in '68.

 

I don't find any reference to the Norlin Label being possibly used in '69.

 

Pre-'70 is really a stretch here, I think.

 

Looking at serial#'s, I could not find ANY reference or possibility for a 5 digit serial#. Although there might be a slight possibility it was made at exactly the right time to have a '69 stamped format and '70 label, the fact that 5 digit numbers completely disappear by the MID '60's seems to rule it out. Regardless of "Made in US" stamp or not, this should not have a 5 digit serial# at all.

 

And there is no possible way this guitar could have been made in the early to mid 60's with a Norlin label and walnut finish.

 

I did see one reference to some custom shop made guitars from Kalamazoo, that would have a 4 digit number preceded by a letter, from the 70's, but no reference to what types of guitars, or what occasions they would have used it. Again, a stretch.

 

The lack of varitone on a STEREO guitar, and 2 jacks, doesn't conform to anything. That either makes it a true custom order, or it was modded at some point.

 

To me, it seems more likely it has a 6 digit number that is hard to read than the other possibilities.

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Something I neglected to mention above, maybe because it didn't seem necessary to me...

 

I knew as soon as I looked at the full frontal photo that this was not a 60's guitar. To a "trained" eye (after looking at Gibson guitars for 40+ years), the headstock shape and inlay are 1970's style, not 60's.

 

First, here's a late 60's headstock. Note the shape of the "scroll" at the top (the center dip), as well as the spacing of the pieces of the split diamond inlay:

 

01508_hs.jpg

 

 

Now, here's a 1970's headstock, which is distinctly different. Again, compare the contour of the scroll at the top edge, as well as the spacing between the inlay pieces. This is the same 70's style headstock that we see in Mike's photo:

 

u3ayqvcy4pphn9twxei4.jpg

 

Side-by-side (you may need to widen your browser window to view them side by side):

01508_hs.jpgu3ayqvcy4pphn9twxei4.jpg

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Very true. Local guitar repairmen may not always be serious Gibson enthusiasts, as those of us here are. I've lost count of how many times people have posted erroneous things here that were told to them by their local guitar shop.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Strongly agree.

 

 

Indeed, we've seen this occur around here many times also.

 

Getting the pot codes may be a little bothersome, but looking at the rear of the headstock and answering the above questions isn't a lot to ask.

 

The label inside your guitar didn't exist in 1968. Not sure why you seem to be ignoring this fact, or maybe you missed it along with the multiple requests for info about the rear of your headstock?

 

Perhaps the TP6 is not original to the guitar, which could put it pre-1978 after all, but it's not a 60's guitar. I have no idea what's up with the serial number, but the features of the guitar eliminate the possibility that it dates to the 1960's, and certainly not as early (1962) as the serial number would indicate.

 

Hi Guys, I believe I have already answered the question re the headstock. There is no "Made in USA" and apart from the serial number there is a faint impression of "SECOND" stamped into it. Looking at the sticker inside the top "f" hole, on the LHS white triangle it states model and on the RHS triangle it states ES355TD. The top triangle is black in colour and has Gibson with inc printed underneath the Gibson name and to the rhs of Gibson (near the top) it has "union made" printed. The lower purple triangle has a flower like symbol printed towards the apex and underneath that is printed Gibson Inc Kalamazoo Michigan USA. I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to sell this guitar, it's been in my possession for a long time, for it's age I believe it is in great condition.

The volume pots are rather large unlike other pots I've sen in USA musical equipment, I have no way of reading whats imprinted on the pots and would have to say that it is unlikely that I will be able to do so.

If I would have known that dating this guitar would be such an issue I would have never asked for assistance as I thought that the serial number would have been sufficient to ascertain the year of manufacture.

If it is a "forgery" then this must have been done in the early 70s as I purchased this guitar from a jazz guitarist who in turn purchased it from a music store in Sydney. I'm not disputing any of your answers but feel rather puzzled that a guitar which would have only been a few years old ( as ascertained from your replies) would have been forged or altered in any way, why would anyone bother? Were guitars modified-altered back in those days and if so why?

Again thanks guys but please don't feel compelled to provide a definitive answer as quite frankly it is not that important to me as I will probably leave all my guitars to my grandson when I go to "Guitar Heaven" and then he can try to solve any dating puzzles.

Cheers and thanks a lot, Mike

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Hi Guys, I believe I have already answered the question re the headstock. There is no "Made in USA" and apart from the serial number there is a faint impression of "SECOND" stamped into it. Looking at the sticker inside the top "f" hole, on the LHS white triangle it states model and on the RHS triangle it states ES355TD. The top triangle is black in colour and has Gibson with inc printed underneath the Gibson name and to the rhs of Gibson (near the top) it has "union made" printed. The lower purple triangle has a flower like symbol printed towards the apex and underneath that is printed Gibson Inc Kalamazoo Michigan USA. I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to sell this guitar, it's been in my possession for a long time, for it's age I believe it is in great condition.

The volume pots are rather large unlike other pots I've sen in USA musical equipment, I have no way of reading whats imprinted on the pots and would have to say that it is unlikely that I will be able to do so.

If I would have known that dating this guitar would be such an issue I would have never asked for assistance as I thought that the serial number would have been sufficient to ascertain the year of manufacture.

If it is a "forgery" then this must have been done in the early 70s as I purchased this guitar from a jazz guitarist who in turn purchased it from a music store in Sydney. I'm not disputing any of your answers but feel rather puzzled that a guitar which would have only been a few years old ( as ascertained from your replies) would have been forged or altered in any way, why would anyone bother? Were guitars modified-altered back in those days and if so why?

Again thanks guys but please don't feel compelled to provide a definitive answer as quite frankly it is not that important to me as I will probably leave all my guitars to my grandson when I go to "Guitar Heaven" and then he can try to solve any dating puzzles.

Cheers and thanks a lot, Mike

If you would forgive us, we sometimes can get carried away at times.

 

It's not so much always a matter of fraud, but of interest. This guitar is INTERESTING, and presents a mystery. Some of us like to solve mysteries when it comes to guitars that don't fit the usual mold.

 

I don't think this is fake, and don't think anyone else here think it is either. At most, we are saying the facts of the mystery point to a later date than 60's.

 

Sometimes, it's our privileged to be able to identify and date a guitar here as much as it is yours to have it done.

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Hi Guys, I believe I have already answered the question re the headstock. There is no "Made in USA"...

You had not answered that question previously, and you still have not answered the question about whether the guitar has a volute.

 

In your opening post, you said that you got the guitar in 1978. Later in the thread, you said: "I can also say without doubt that the guitar was purchased by me in the early 70s, from recollection between 72 and 74". You proceeded to suggest that the guitar dated to the 1960's. You've been shown that it does not.

 

We're trying to help you. We are Gibson enthusiasts, and some of us have been knowledgeable about Gibsons for a long time.

 

If I would have known that dating this guitar would be such an issue I would have never asked for assistance as I thought that the serial number would have been sufficient to ascertain the year of manufacture.

The serial number is the problem here. It's not really very difficult to at least ascertain that this guitar was manufactured in the 70's, not the 60's. You did the right thing in asking for assistance.

 

If it is a "forgery" then this must have been done in the early 70s as I purchased this guitar from a jazz guitarist who in turn purchased it from a music store in Sydney. I'm not disputing any of your answers but feel rather puzzled that a guitar which would have only been a few years old ( as ascertained from your replies) would have been forged or altered in any way, why would anyone bother?

The serial number was either stamped that way in error, or somebody did alter it. Why would anyone bother? Possibly to try to deceive someone into thinking it was a vintage (pre-1970) Gibson, which would have more value. Very foolish idea, if true, because as you've been shown, it's easy to look at this guitar and know that it does not date to the 1960's, let alone 1962.

 

 

Again thanks guys but please don't feel compelled to provide a definitive answer as quite frankly it is not that important to me as I will probably leave all my guitars to my grandson when I go to "Guitar Heaven" and then he can try to solve any dating puzzles.

Cheers and thanks a lot, Mike

You're welcome, Mike. Unfortunately, the only way to get a definitive answer would be to take the guitar for an in-hand examination by a qualified Gibson expert.

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You had not answered that question previously, and you still have not answered the question about whether the guitar has a volute.

 

In your opening post, you said that you got the guitar in 1978. Later in the thread, you said: "I can also say without doubt that the guitar was purchased by me in the early 70s, from recollection between 72 and 74". You proceeded to suggest that the guitar dated to the 1960's. You've been shown that it does not.

 

We're trying to help you. We are Gibson enthusiasts, and some of us have been knowledgeable about Gibsons for a long time.

 

 

The serial number is the problem here. It's not really very difficult to at least ascertain that this guitar was manufactured in the 70's, not the 60's. You did the right thing in asking for assistance.

 

 

The serial number was either stamped that way in error, or somebody did alter it. Why would anyone bother? Possibly to try to deceive someone into thinking it was a vintage (pre-1970) Gibson, which would have more value. Very foolish idea, if true, because as you've been shown, it's easy to look at this guitar and know that it does not date to the 1960's, let alone 1962.

 

 

 

You're welcome, Mike. Unfortunately, the only way to get a definitive answer would be to take the guitar for an in-hand examination by a qualified Gibson expert.

 

Hi, on checking with my wife we ascertained that the guitar was actually bought earlier than 78, probably a year or so before our daughter was born in 1974. In hindsight I should have been more accurate with my dates but I thought that the serial number would have been sufficient to determine the guitar's date of manufacture.

Unfortunately there are no Gibson experts in Australia as guitars of this vintage are very rare and are usually later imports by collectors.

The "volute" has been mentioned a few times but could somebody please tell me exactly what you want me to describe?

The area of the back of the headstock as well as the rest of the guitar has slight age cracking, only visible with a magnifying glass and I can see no trace of any re-finishing whatsoever which I believe would have been visible had the numbers been altered. The word "second" is only barely visible yet the serial number is deeply impressed into the wood unlike the serial number on my Les Paul, is this a clue?

Further, I never believed it was a 62 model from my recollection of talking with the seller I believed it was a 68 model but had no proof of that.

Again, I'm not trying to be smart or argumentative but just wanted to date what I consider is a great guitar. Given the time span (late 60s to early 70s) I find it difficult to believe that someone would modify the guitar and if so for what purpose. Would these alterations/mods have been done by the factory or could this have been done by a dealer (a custom job) but if so why would the serial number have been altered?

Thanks again, Mike

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Something I neglected to mention above, maybe because it didn't seem necessary to me...

 

I knew as soon as I looked at the full frontal photo that this was not a 60's guitar. To a "trained" eye (after looking at Gibson guitars for 40+ years), the headstock shape and inlay are 1970's style, not 60's.

 

First, here's a late 60's headstock. Note the shape of the "scroll" at the top (the center dip), as well as the spacing of the pieces of the split diamond inlay:

 

01508_hs.jpg

 

 

Now, here's a 1970's headstock, which is distinctly different. Again, compare the contour of the scroll at the top edge, as well as the spacing between the inlay pieces. This is the same 70's style headstock that we see in Mike's photo:

 

u3ayqvcy4pphn9twxei4.jpg

 

Side-by-side (you may need to widen your browser window to view them side by side):

01508_hs.jpgu3ayqvcy4pphn9twxei4.jpg

 

Hi,

On my guitar the RHS corner of the "Diamond" is closer to the "B" tuner.

The countour of the scroll edge ( centre top of guitar) is as deep as the RHS picture of the the two side by side guitar image.

The "STEREO" cover has a softer more rolled edge on the bottom corners of this cover.

Cheers, Mike

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Images of the Gibson volute (a poorly received design concept intended to strengthen the head/neck joint):

 

retro73volute.jpg

87ad_3.jpg

kbozzn.jpg

=====

 

With regard to the "spacing" I referred to on the split diamond headstock inlay, the telltale difference is the space (vertical black "stripes") between the pairs of upper and lower inlayed triangular pieces. On earlier guitars, these vertical spaces are wider, and clearly narrower on later (70's) instruments. Here's another side-by-side comparison of the two styles:

 

1961-Gibson-ES355-Stereo-3.jpg1975-76-headstock.jpg

 

Edit: Sorry, I tried to find medium sized images that could be viewed side by side, but I'm having trouble doing that. The smaller the images, the easier it is to see the difference.

=====

 

Would these alterations/mods have been done by the factory or could this have been done by a dealer (a custom job) but if so why would the serial number have been altered?

 

What "alterations/mods" are you referring to? The TP6 is the only thing that stands out to me as a possible mod on this guitar, and even that is unclear to me based on your confusion about when you got the guitar.

 

I've already answered the question as to why the serial number might have been altered (although it seems a bit unlikely that it was). Seems more likely that it was an error by Gibson, even if that seems unlikely. If someone thought they could fool a buyer into thinking this was a 1962 guitar by altering the serial number, they wouldn't have had a very smart plan. At any rate, don't forget that Gibson was pretty sloppy with their serial numbering system back in those years.

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What "alterations/mods" are you referring to? The TP6 is the only thing that stands out to me as a possible mod on this guitar, and even that is unclear to me based on your confusion about when you got the guitar.

 

I've already answered the question as to why the serial number might have been altered (although it seems a bit unlikely that it was). Seems more likely that it was an error by Gibson, even if that seems unlikely. If someone thought they could fool a buyer into thinking this was a 1962 guitar by altering the serial number, they wouldn't have had a very smart plan. At any rate, don't forget that Gibson was pretty sloppy with their serial numbering system back in those years.

I mentioned the probability of mods. The fact it is stereo with 2 jacks, and no varitone switch leads me to believe that. The OP also mentioned the pups being potted, although by the previous owner.

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I mentioned the probability of mods. The fact it is stereo with 2 jacks, and no varitone switch leads me to believe that. The OP also mentioned the pups being potted, although by the previous owner.

Thanks stein. With regard to the two jacks, I've been trying to do more research on that. I found one thread here from 2008 where a member pointed out that their 1976 ES-345 came stock with two output jacks. I'm also aware that the idea of two jacks was perhaps becoming more of a thing in that time frame, up to the introduction of the "Lucille" variant circa 1979 or 1980 (?).

 

If the two jacks on Mike's guitar involved a mod, it at least doesn't appear (from the one photo we have) that Mike's guitar ever had a jack on the face/top. If it were a mod, then it seems likely that there was one jack on the rim. For some reason, I feel like that is just as unusual on a 355 as two jacks on the rim. At any rate, finding info on 70's 355's is proving to be somewhat difficult. It seems like most of them had one jack on the top (and yet Mike's guitar shows no apparent evidence of having had a jack removed from the top).

 

Oh, I did learn that the TP6 tailpiece replaced the lyre vibrola as a stock feature on this model in 1979. I still wonder whether Mike's memory may be failing him somewhat, as he doesn't know when the TP6 was put on (I wonder if it's original, and the guitar dates to the late 70's).

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Here is a serious question that I frankly don't know: How many stereo 335's were made WITHOUT a varitone switch?

 

I looked a bit, but haven't seen any references to it being done, and I don't recall ever seeing a stereo Gibson without one.

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Just came across this image of a 1979 example. Two jacks on the rim (haven't yet found one with one jack on the rim).

 

gibson-ES-355-TDSV-Stereo-1979-Sunburst-big.jpg

 

Hi, thanks for that photo. My guitar has those two output jacks, it does have a slight "volute", if I had a dentist's mirror I would try to ascertain the numbers on the pots.

As I have previously mentioned my daughter was born in 1974 and the following year I purchased a Volvo sedan as it was perceived as the safest vehicle available at that time. Now I can remember driving down to The Gold Coast which is about 100 miles from where we lived at that time and placing the guitar in the front passenger area of the GM vehicle I owned at that time.

Doing a little research myself it states in "Gibson Electrics by A.R. Duchossoir" page 174/175 that an ES355T was produced in 1959 and on another page mention is made of an ES355TD produced from 1958 on. I'm not suggesting that my guitar is a 50s vintage but it appears there are a lot of anomalies with Gibson ES355TD dating. The ES355TDSV appears to indicate that it has the "varitone" electrics.

Also in another publication from the same author it seems that no alphabetical pre-fix was used between 1961 and 1969.

The headstock is bound with a one white binding and then two narrow bindings. The O on the Gibson name is joined to the N near the top whereas on my ES175 it is joined towards the bottom.

From my research it may be that this guitar was a "custom" order, date of manufacture unknown and looking at my Les Paul it has a standard tailpiece so this may explain the variance ( I may have swapped them over?).

Again I thank all of you for your input, the date of manufacture will most likely be a mystery for ever or until I can see the date on the pots. Mike

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From my research it may be that this guitar was a "custom" order, date of manufacture unknown and looking at my Les Paul it has a standard tailpiece so this may explain the variance ( I may have swapped them over?).

Again I thank all of you for your input, the date of manufacture will most likely be a mystery for ever or until I can see the date on the pots. Mike

I did find reference to some Kalamazoo guitars in the 70's having a 4 digit number preceded by a letter, for "custom" or special orders. Something like that. But it wouldn't say "second" would it?

 

It's entirely possible the guy you bought it from had a shaky memory, or was shaky on the facts. But, if he did in fact have the pups potted, it may have been altered to a stereo at that time, too.

 

I was 2 years old in 1970, but it seems to me, "custom ordered" could just as easily mean ordered that way from Gibson or the dealer making changes to a guitar for the customer. I get the impression more "custom" guitars were the latter, but for many such as this one, I don't think there is any way to know for sure.

 

Sinse it was made in Kalamazoo, it might be worth asking Gibson if they have any records of this guitar. I don't know for sure, but it is my understanding Kalamazoo kept shipping records and Gibson has many of them, although I wouldn't expect them to have any more than a shipping date with a serial#, but who knows? It may turn up?

 

Of corse, if you were to do that, and since it has such an odd number and rare features, you give many good pics AND info regarding the axe.

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Hi, thanks for that photo. My guitar has those two output jacks, it does have a slight "volute", if I had a dentist's mirror I would try to ascertain the numbers on the pots.

As I have previously mentioned my daughter was born in 1974 and the following year I purchased a Volvo sedan as it was perceived as the safest vehicle available at that time. Now I can remember driving down to The Gold Coast which is about 100 miles from where we lived at that time and placing the guitar in the front passenger area of the GM vehicle I owned at that time.

Memories can get pretty hazy over the years, and obviously yours has to some degree Michael. No offense, but your recollections have come across as pretty fuzzy. Based on the physical features of your guitar, I'd bet that the TP6 is original to your 355 (it's gold, and it was a stock part on 355's by 1979, so it "belongs"), and I think your guitar most likely dates to around 1979.

 

Doing a little research myself it states in "Gibson Electrics by A.R. Duchossoir" page 174/175 that an ES355T was produced in 1959 and on another page mention is made of an ES355TD produced from 1958 on. I'm not suggesting that my guitar is a 50s vintage but it appears there are a lot of anomalies with Gibson ES355TD dating.

The Duchossoir book was revised (changed pretty significantly, in fact, for the later edition), and that error was corrected. The model was developed in 1958 and initially called the ES355T, but the "T" and "TD" were the same guitar.

 

The O on the Gibson name is joined to the N near the top whereas on my ES175 it is joined towards the bottom.

Well, now you've managed to call attention to something I hadn't noticed, but seems VERY significant. I literally just realized this, after typing the above paragraph about 1979 as the date. It also aligns with the general feeling I had already expressed the other day about the dating of your guitar.

 

The evolution of a detail like the Gibson script can be very enlightening. I've frankly never been very interested in 1970's Gibsons myself, and have not studied them as much as those of earlier decades, so I hadn't even thought about this detail.

 

Have a look at this image, which documents the evolution of the Gibson script logo (these happen to be Les Paul headstocks, so don't compare any specifics other than the logo):

 

28jfhhu.jpg

 

I mean... that's pretty solid evidence I'd say. If anybody has a link to any further analysis of this evolution, please share. I've found searching for details on Gibsons of this period to be somewhat difficult, as most of the scholarship has always been focused on vintage guitars.

 

Putting everything together, I'm almost convinced that this guitar is no earlier than 1979. The custom order theory is still a possibility, but more research on 355's of that period would help to clarify that.

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... Have a look at this image, which documents the evolution of the Gibson script logo... Putting everything together, I'm almost convinced that this guitar is no earlier than 1979...

 

Great point about the logo.

 

As the facts and details of this guitar continue to trickle in (a decent set of photos would have brought this and many other of these details to light two weeks and 40 posts ago), it is getting younger and younger.

 

The logo comparison photo is very informational for showing the progression of the modern headstock logo. I wouldn't take the dates listed as written in stone, but the point is valid.

 

I'm still waiting on potentiometer codes!

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The logo comparison photo is very informational for showing the progression of the modern headstock logo. I wouldn't take the dates listed as written in stone...

I agree, and as I said it would be great if somebody had a good source for more scholarship on 70's/80's Gibsons.

 

Just out of curiosity, I went to gbase last night and did a simple test. I browsed through several dozen Gibsons (various models) from the 1975-1985 period, and looked at the headstock logos. I found about a half dozen examples with the "o" connected to the "n" at the top rather than the bottom. There were none that were earlier than 1979. I found one from '79, and the rest ranged from 1982 to 1985.

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I have to also wonder, if Kalamazoo made and Nashville made would also be different from each other, or have different timelines for different details.

 

When the logo changed or started to appear would seem a good, solid way to get dates or a range, but did both factories change at the same time?

 

I feel kinda silly bringing it up, as I can't seem to recall when the Nashville production started, and what was made where. Might be a moot point as far as this guitar goes.

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