Speaker help

[quapman]

Greetings knowledgeable forumites.

Question for you amp nerds. And I mean that in a good way.

 

I really like my Blackstar HT Club 40 but it's a pretty dark amp. It's fine for playing home alone but,,

we are auditioning a drummer next Monday and if he works out we will have a full band thing going again.

I like the sound of my amp but it's just a little on the muddy side once everyone gets going.

I want to brighten it up some and was thinking about swapping out the speaker. Currently there is a Celestion 70/80 in it. I was thinking of upgrading it to a gold or blue. Anyone have any experience with the gold or blue?

 

I just picked up an MXR 10 band EQ which helps a lot. But I have a loop switcher I plan on using

and will not always be going through it. I want to be able to bypass everything and just use my amp.

 

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Any experience with the gold or blue? or have any other suggestions?

[sparquelito]

Good morning, good sir.

 

I have only so much experience with Celestion Gold, though I did swap out an original (ancient) Celestion speaker in my old Marshall for a new Celestion Blue.

I only knew that the amp sounds much punchier than before, but to be fair, the old speaker was quite elderly, and had gone flat sounding.

 

Here is a helpful thread that might offer some elucidation.

 

Blue vs Gold

[Karloff]

I'm partial to Vin 30s myself.

[rct]

I was of the life long belief in Celestion, used them my whole life up to late 90's and thought that any good amp came with them already in it. Truth is, there are lots of good speakers out there. If you are on the wrong side of dark with a Celestion, there aren't that many speaker changes that are going to help, especially if it is a single speaker. Put a pair of 12s under it, Jensens maybe, any of major makers today are making decent speakers, and you'll help lift some of that cloud off it.

 

It might be unpopular, but changing speakers is not a shortcut to dramatic tone changes. Yer 10 band will help one speaker more than just a different one speaker will.

 

My Fedner Champeen Hunnert is on the dark side too. I don't care. Nobody out there hears what I hear, they just hear Feels Like The First Time and spill their Bud, bud.

 

rct

[weldaar]

I was of the life long belief in Celestion, used them my whole life up to late 90's and thought that any good amp came with them already in it. Truth is, there are lots of good speakers out there. If you are on the wrong side of dark with a Celestion, there aren't that many speaker changes that are going to help, especially if it is a single speaker. Put a pair of 12s under it, Jensens maybe, any of major makers today are making decent speakers, and you'll help lift some of that cloud off it.

 

It might be unpopular, but changing speakers is not a shortcut to dramatic tone changes. Yer 10 band will help one speaker more than just a different one speaker will.

 

My Fedner Champeen Hunnert is on the dark side too. I don't care. Nobody out there hears what I hear, they just hear Feels Like The First Time and spill their Bud, bud.

 

rct

 

I've been a Celestion fan for over 20 years. But I just installed an Eminence Wizard in my Fuchs combo and I am more than happy with the tone. Tight bottom smooth mids and crisp highs.

[capmaster]

To my experience the best solution to evade dark, muddy amp sounds is the Electro Voice EVM 12 L. It's not cheap but worth every cent. I use two of them since 1982, tried several Celestions in 1996 and went back immediately. The EVM 12 L combines high efficiency with unparalleled midrange response. As downsides can be seen its merciless fidelity and its weight. The latter is due to the die-cast frame and the large magnet, either allowing for the high efficiency, The precision of the frame permits a narrower coil gap and thus higher sound-pressure levels at a given power.

 

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Blackstar HT-Club 40 allows for use without problems due to the space required for the power valves/tubes. The EVM 12 L Classic has 8 Ohms and will have to be connected to one of the appropriate outputs.

 

When trying the EVM 12 L Classic first, be careful with the master volume. Chances are the amp will blow you away.

 

By the way, I never blew one of mine, and they still sound loud, tight and clean since over 33 years.

 

Unfortunately I couldn't find a dealer in Canada, so here are manufacturer and Sweetwater links:

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=410

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EVM12L

[Dub-T-123]

I would use an EQ or treble booster. I doubt a speaker change will totally solve the issue

[Guest Farnsbarns]

How old is this amp? It could be that the speaker rubber is simply perished and splitting in which case pretty much any new speaker will sound brighter. Run the lowest impedance speaker the output tranny will take for a brighter sound. Also, is the amp dual ended? If so, hot up the power valves a little. If the amp is more than 15/20 years old change out the tone caps.

 

Also, dampness muddies a speaker up. Has/is your amp stored in a damp place ever? I've known people to box a speaker up with loads of silica to remedy that.

 

Assuming all else is equal you're not going to change the timbre much by changing the speaker. You can tighten a flabby sound with a speaker change but getting more treble is not generally done with the speaker.

[capmaster]

I would use an EQ or treble booster. I doubt a speaker change will totally solve the issue

Coincidentally my first attempts during the early 1980's to get a clearer tone more easily cutting through had been trying EQs. I used a Boss GE-6, then a GE-7, but these stomp boxes added lots of hiss. Finally I used a mains-powered Boss GE-10 with much quieter electronics. Anyway, I was able to reduce the dark share of sound, but none of the gadgets gave me a clearer tone, let alone cutting through. Finally going with EVM 12 L speakers solved the problem, and I didn't use any external EQ ever since.

[quapman]

Hey, thanks for all the replies Gents. Much appreciated.

 

Farns, it's not an old amp. It's only a year or so old. So it's not wear that's the problem. I'm just looking to get more clarity out of it.

 

Dub, I do have an EQ but I want it to cut through more when I'm going straight in. I don't carry much for pedals.

But I did just pick up an EQ which really does clean it up. I just want to be able to go straight in sometime and use my EQ for my one 3 pedal loop. Which I want to be able to bypass.

 

rct, I did consider the cabinet idea. But damn, I'm old and fat and lazy. I don't want to carry any more than

I have to. I may still go that route though. I have seriously played with that idea. I haven't completely ruled it out yet. Thanks for the input.

 

What ever I get doesn't have to be Celestion. I'm open to anything. Not much of a tinkerer so I don't really

know what is what when it comes to stuff like this.

 

Cap, my local mom/pop shop can bring in EV stuff. I checked today. Pardon my ignorance but the one you suggest

is 200W. My Blackstar is only a 40W amp. Can I do that? will it sound OK? It does have an 8 Ohm output.

 

Karloff, I did find a comparison between the 70/80 and the Vin 30 which was really quit convincing.

As convincing as sound through my laptop to my stereo can be that is.

 

Thanks for the input Gents. Much appreciated.

[capmaster]

Cap, my local mom/pop shop can bring in EV stuff. I checked today. Pardon my ignorance but the one you suggest

is 200W. My Blackstar is only a 40W amp. Can I do that? will it sound OK? It does have an 8 Ohm output.

No problem at all, rather the opposite. It will be nearly indestructible when powered by a 40 watts valve/tube amp. Between 1982 and 1996 I played one each with the two 60 watts Acoustic G60T amps of mine. From 1996 until 2011 I used only one of them driving two EVM 12 Ls, meaning just 30 watts per speaker.

 

Since 2011 I use a 2 x 125 watts @ 8 ohms stereo solid-state poweramp driving one EVM 12 L-fitted 1 x 12" cabinet per channel. I need just a fraction of the power for high-gain sounds but love the awesome headroom for clean tones.

[stein]

I have to disagree that changing the speaker won't change anything. I think it's the biggest change you can make to an amp, and the most potential if you want to change the amp.

 

However, most of my experience is with Fender speakers. Oxfords, CTS, Jensens, Jensen reissues, and Webers. I've swapped and played Celestians, but not enough to remember details that would be useful.

 

What I wanted to add though, is speaker power and sensitivity can and will make a difference, especially if you are on the edge of the amps power and speaker power. If you are cranking the amp and getting real power tube distortion, as you would when cranking a low powered amp, swapping to a more powerful speaker will make it less likely to distort, and also make it louder.

 

Generally speaking, speakers with a higher power rating will have a higher sensitivity, which means the speaker will put out more volume for any given power put into it.

[quapman]

Thanks Stein!

That makes a lot of sense. One thing I really like about this amp is the clean and dirty channels each have a voice button.

When depressed on the clean it's a very subtle overdrive which I really like. I would hate to lose that but suspect it's just cicuitry and would remain as it is. I rarely get the chance to get my tubes cranked and if this band thing pans out and we end up gigging it will be in small venues, pubs and such.

 

So with the info provided so far, my assumption is that I will be able to get by on my clean and dirty channels. And the couple pedals I have to get what I need for overdrive. Without the need to crank my tubes. Would that be a fair assumption?

[capmaster]

I have to disagree that changing the speaker won't change anything. I think it's the biggest change you can make to an amp, and the most potential if you want to change the amp.

 

However, most of my experience is with Fender speakers. Oxfords, CTS, Jensens, Jensen reissues, and Webers. I've swapped and played Celestians, but not enough to remember details that would be useful.

 

What I wanted to add though, is speaker power and sensitivity can and will make a difference, especially if you are on the edge of the amps power and speaker power. If you are cranking the amp and getting real power tube distortion, as you would when cranking a low powered amp, swapping to a more powerful speaker will make it less likely to distort, and also make it louder.

 

Generally speaking, speakers with a higher power rating will have a higher sensitivity, which means the speaker will put out more volume for any given power put into it.

This is what I found out over the years, too. To my senses the Celestion G12B-150 blew all the revered Celestion vintage remakes with lower power ratings, even when driven with 30 watts per chassis only.

 

I also agree that changing a guitar amp's speaker can mean the biggest change possible.

 

Thanks Stein!

That makes a lot of sense. One thing I really like about this amp is the clean and dirty channels each have a voice button.

When depressed on the clean it's a very subtle overdrive which I really like. I would hate to lose that but suspect it's just cicuitry and would remain as it is. I rarely get the chance to get my tubes cranked and if this band thing pans out and we end up gigging it will be in small venues, pubs and such.

 

So with the info provided so far, my assumption is that I will be able to get by on my clean and dirty channels. And the couple pedals I have to get what I need for overdrive. Without the need to crank my tubes. Would that be a fair assumption?

The HT Club 40's controls provide lots of options, but all interact with each other. I think it may take some time but guess experimenting with the settings will help in finding a combination satisfying in either clean and overdrive mode with any good guitar.

 

A late bandmate of mine owned one of these. As far as I remember the most helpful way to go has been the following: Starting with Bass set to 3, Middle to 10, Treble to 0, ISF doesn't matter, then set the clean controls, and finally adjust Bass, Middle, and Treble. Then set overdrive gain, overdrive volume, and ISF. Finally comparing clean and lead channels may call for some fine tuning. We were a quintet then, two guitars, bass, drums, keyboards, and two vocals. He used the stock speaker and played Strats, Teles, LPs, SGs, and a PRS. He only changed the clean volume setting when switching to a guitar of different build. After buying this amp he didn't use his three all-tube Marshalls (4 x 12" straight halfstack, 2 x 12" combo, and 1 x 12" combo) and the Boss multi-FX pedal board he owned anymore. He never had any problem to cut through, but I don't remember his settings and don't have pictured them. His sound for sure had been rather bright than dark. So sad he died last November much too early :(

[quapman]

I'm sorry to hear that Cap.

Losing a friend is very difficult.

Did he have the Club 40 as well?

Did he change out his speaker?

Man I could never have my treble at 0 on this amp.

[capmaster]

I'm sorry to hear that Cap.

Losing a friend is very difficult.

Did he have the Club 40 as well?

Did he change out his speaker?

Man I could never have my treble at 0 on this amp.

Yes, the Club 40 has been the last amp he ever bought, and as I mentioned above, he used the stock speaker. One evening he tried different external cabinets but went stock finally.

 

The control positions I mentioned are just starting points to begin attenuating and boosting. At the given tone control settings next to all valve/tube guitar amps have - don't laugh - a nearly perfectly flat (!) response. Connecting to a full-range speaker reveals that.

[Dub-T-123]

I have to disagree that changing the speaker won't change anything. I think it's the biggest change you can make to an amp, and the most potential if you want to change the amp.

 

However, most of my experience is with Fender speakers. Oxfords, CTS, Jensens, Jensen reissues, and Webers. I've swapped and played Celestians, but not enough to remember details that would be useful.

 

What I wanted to add though, is speaker power and sensitivity can and will make a difference, especially if you are on the edge of the amps power and speaker power. If you are cranking the amp and getting real power tube distortion, as you would when cranking a low powered amp, swapping to a more powerful speaker will make it less likely to distort, and also make it louder.

 

Generally speaking, speakers with a higher power rating will have a higher sensitivity, which means the speaker will put out more volume for any given power put into it.

I don't think it won't change anything, but it seems superfluous on a 1 year old amp unless there's some issue with the speaker or amp right?

[capmaster]

I don't think it won't change anything, but it seems superfluous on a 1 year old amp unless there's some issue with the speaker or amp right?

In retrospective this seems funny to me but wasn't then. I did my first three speaker replacements due to forerunners gone bad after short periods.

 

In mid-1980 I blew the stock 8 Ohms speaker of unknown make - I only remember it had an aluminum dome - of my solid-state Roland Cube 60, just seven months after purchased new, and replaced it with a Celestion G12-80, 8 Ohms version. This one went bad in early 1981, too, and this time I went with a Celestion K100TC (Twin Cone).

 

In 1982, just one month after purchased new, the stock speaker of my Acoustic G60T combo aka Model 163, probably an Eminence OEM model, went bad, and I replaced it with the first of my EVM 12 Ls still original and active today, now in Marshall 1912 1 x 12" cabinets. Due to its large chassis, since then I unfortunately was bound to use the short General Electric 6L6 tubes then.

 

For that reason I bought a used Acoustic G60T top and cabinet version aka Models 162 and 112G. This one had an EVM 12 L stock now also built into a Marshall 1912 cabinet.

 

I made the two Celestion G12B-150 that came 1996 with the Marshall 1912 cabinets parts of the two Acoustic amps, the combo and the cabinet. I modded the poweramps for EL34 use soon. As mentioned in a previous post, I used the amp top to drive the two cabinets with EVM 12 Ls until 2011, and since then I use a 2 x 125 Watts solid-state stereo amp.

[stein]

I don't think it won't change anything, but it seems superfluous on a 1 year old amp unless there's some issue with the speaker or amp right?

I don't think you are understanding.

 

The "sensitivity" rating is an actual spec, a measurement. I don't remember how it's calculated, but it's something like how many decibels per watt. Higher sensitivity rating means louder.

 

The rated power is not always mow strong the speaker is, and not always how much you can put into it before it blows. It has to do with the size of the voice coil, and how many windings, and the size of the magnet.

 

Generally speaking, a more powerful speaker with more coil and magnet will have a higher sensitivity rating.

 

Here is a real life example, best I can think of: a Fender Deluxe Reverb with a Jensen C12R (what is it? 25 watts?) will get massive amounts of distortion when turned up, but if you replace the speaker with a Jensen C12N, it will be not just be louder (about twice I think), but will hardly break up into distortion at all when cranked.

 

Without even getting into the voice of the speaker (bright or dark, the frequency responce) or the amp, there is a LOT of difference than can happen just by playing with the power ratings of different speakers, particularly if the speaker is about the same power rating as the amp.

[badbluesplayer]

You might like this speaker. I've never used this particular speaker, but WGS speakers are pretty highly regarded. This speaker is a more articulate version of their Veteran 30 (which is similar to a Celestion Vintage 30) and it's about 1/2 the price of the Celestion.

 

https://wgs4.com/12-retro-30-75-watts

[sparquelito]

Well, since the door is now wide open for opinions on other-than-Celestion speakers, I can vouch for the quality of Jensen speakers.

 

I replaced a very old OEM Fender speaker in one of my old Fender amps a few years ago, and the Jensen 'Special Design' loudspeaker, made in Italy, was an incredible improvement in overall loudness, tone, and warmth.