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Distorted tone above 7th fret with L5


ronjazz

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Hello,

I have a 25 year old—like new condition—L5 that has recently developed an issue manifested by distorted tone when playing chords, or the "D" string above the 7th fret. And several days ago I purchased a brand new Tal Farlow with the exact same defect. The major source of distortion appears to be the "D" in both instances. And, in both guitars the distortion is evident, for the most part, when played acoustically as opposed to amplified. Both guitars have made a visit to the local Gibson service center, and in the case of the L5, frets have been leveled, all wires secured, etc, but the distortion persists. Yesterday, after reading several online posts, I began to investigate—in the case of the Tal Farlow, since the L5 is still with the service center—the possibility that the PUPs may be the source. My finding? Exerting, with the help of another, downward pressure on the pick-guard edge of the neck PUP significantly reduces the distortion. At this point, it is not clear as to whether the noise is coming from the PUP shell, its nearness to the pick-guard, the mounting point of the PUP to the body (top) or the PUP's mounting springs.

 

I did come across an older post with what appeared to be a similar issue, and would be interested to hear about whatever ultimate solution the poster arrived at. Any new input would be appreciated.

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Hello Ron, and welcome to this nice place in the web! [thumbup]

 

I'm sad to hear about the annoying issues of your precious guitars. :( That fret levelling didn't help makes the situation even worse. <_<

 

In the following I assume that the distortion you describe is some kind of rattle or buzz due to adverse vibrations caused by certain sympathetic frequencies. That's what I experienced sometimes during the past 35 years. It's worth mentioning that all the guitars affected were solid-bodied, partly with, partly without pickguard. Furthermore the noises were so intense they were bothering still in a band context although they weren't transduced through pickups, amplifiers, and speakers.

 

I encountered lots of noises caused by pickups, pickup mounting hardware, pickguards and their mounting hardware, bridges, bridge saddles, mainly on Fenders, tailpieces, controls, switches, mainly Gibson toggle switches, jacks, or jack plates. The most common solution has been loosening all the mounting screws of a suspicious part and carefully retightening them. Sometimes repeating these steps in varying orders of retightening may do the trick.

 

A very common issue are rattling toggle switches. This isn't funny, but most of my Gibsons had this trouble, typically when still almost brand-new. They also came often with contact issues from the factory, but contact cleaner solves that for years. I never replaced one in the past, and they are in use up to 38 years. However, they can be quite susceptible to vibrations, notably in the middle position, and to my experience mostly excited by the D4th. Loosening the sleeve nut, displacing the switch just a tad and reassembling can be of help. I know this is easier said than done on a jazzbox... [crying] Sometimes use of contact cleaner put onto the axles of the switch lever is of help, too. To avoid bringing the stuff to wood and finish I always put something on a screw driver blade and touch it up.

 

In some cases the source of rattle have been vibrations of pickup mounting springs. I met them mostly on guitars with third-party parts, with one notable exception, a Gibson Custom Les Paul Standard guitar of mine. The cure has been swapping the neck pickup's mounting springs against each other. Interestingly on this particular guitar the D4th has also been the sound source causing this buzz.

 

I hope you get it solved, mate. Good luck!

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Pups and pickgaurds are a common source of buzzing or such on archtops.

 

You are on the right track- reproduce the "distortion" and touch or hold things to find the source.

 

There are SO many ways to deal with it. Some place foam or something in places (mainly the pups), some use felt stickies.

 

Personally, the only buzzing I can remember on mine was just as you describe: the PG there at the neck pup. I solved that by just bringing it out a bit at the hole where it mounts at the neck so it didn't touch the neck pup. Not sure if it stayed, but haven't had to deal with it sinse. But I do remember it taking a while and some effort until I found it or "fixed" it.

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I had noise problems in a semi. Here are some ideas:

 

Replaced pup springs with flexi tubing.

 

Pups1WEB_zps2d9c3a59.jpg

 

Thin strip Velcro (the soft half) on pup covers placed so it contacts surrounds at correct height

 

Pups3WEB_zps11199248.jpg

 

Plus tiny bits of velcro underneath pickguard at edge where it hits pups.

 

And even tinier strands of cotton wool in any suspect pup screwholes

 

The length of string behind the bridge to the tailpiece carries a lot of resonance. I always mute it.

 

Another one can be the wire on the bridge which is supposed to stop the adjustment screws rattling, if not seated correctly.

 

Noise and vibration/resonance problems can be solved simply, but the sources are sometimes infuriatingly hard to track down....

 

Good luck.

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Hello,

Thank you all for your helpful hints and and encouragement.

 

I will have to await the return of my L5 from the service center—needs a new Tun-o-matic bridge, the original has stretched over the years—to investigate its noise issue, but I suspect that I may find the problem will rest within the same realm as the Tal. I will take my time with the Tal, since it isn't really an acoustic instrument and I use it amped 99% of the time. In regards to the Tal, I did have the option to return it to the dealer, but since the noise is heard, for the most part, only acoustically, and since the availability of new Tal's are like that of hen's teeth, I had decided to keep it and resolve the issue on my own. It is a silky smooth player and its amplified tone is very much akin to my L5 WesMo.

Thanks again.

I will keep you posted as to the eventual results of the noise elimination quest.

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Hello Ron, and welcome to this nice place in the web! [thumbup]

 

I'm sad to hear about the annoying issues of your precious guitars. :( That fret levelling didn't help makes the situation even worse. <_<

 

In the following I assume that the distortion you describe is some kind of rattle or buzz due to adverse vibrations caused by certain sympathetic frequencies. That's what I experienced sometimes during the past 35 years. It's worth mentioning that all the guitars affected were solid-bodied, partly with, partly without pickguard. Furthermore the noises were so intense they were bothering still in a band context although they weren't transduced through pickups, amplifiers, and speakers.

 

I encountered lots of noises caused by pickups, pickup mounting hardware, pickguards and their mounting hardware, bridges, bridge saddles, mainly on Fenders, tailpieces, controls, switches, mainly Gibson toggle switches, jacks, or jack plates. The most common solution has been loosening all the mounting screws of a suspicious part and carefully retightening them. Sometimes repeating these steps in varying orders of retightening may do the trick.

 

A very common issue are rattling toggle switches. This isn't funny, but most of my Gibsons had this trouble, typically when still almost brand-new. They also came often with contact issues from the factory, but contact cleaner solves that for years. I never replaced one in the past, and they are in use up to 38 years. However, they can be quite susceptible to vibrations, notably in the middle position, and to my experience mostly excited by the D4th. Loosening the sleeve nut, displacing the switch just a tad and reassembling can be of help. I know this is easier said than done on a jazzbox... [crying] Sometimes use of contact cleaner put onto the axles of the switch lever is of help, too. To avoid bringing the stuff to wood and finish I always put something on a screw driver blade and touch it up.

 

Hi Capmaster,

Unfortunately, in addition to the distorted tone, which I am fairly certain is coming from the neck PUP where it meets the pick guard, I am also experiencing a contact issue with the selector switch. Moving it back and forth a few times seems to resolve the issue on a temporary basis but, put the guitar back in its case and leave it for a day and it begins all over again. I took note of your use of contact cleaner, but I did not quite follow the method that involves the use of a "screw driver blade"? I certainly do not want to squirt a liquid into the body of the guitar, but I can see the switch assembly through an F hole. Did you introduce the cleaner at the point where the switch lever enters the guitar, or did you somehow manage to lubricate the internal mechanism through one of the F holes?

 

Thank you for your helpful hints.

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My 1996 Tal also experienced sympathetic noise at the neck pickup ring; I ended up inserting a pick cut in half between the pickup and the ring on the pickguard side.

I no longer experience the problem which was kind of annoying acoustically...

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My 1996 Tal also experienced sympathetic noise at the neck pickup ring; I ended up inserting a pick cut in half between the pickup and the ring on the pickguard side.

I no longer experience the problem which was kind of annoying acoustically...

 

Hello,

I will see if I have a pick that is thin enough to give your method a try.

Thank you.

 

Addendum:

I did find a thin pick, and inserted it between forward edge of the neck PUP and the pick guard, and although the noise could still be appreciated in some subtle fashion, it had been diminished by about 95%. Next step is to loosen the pick guard and place a buffer material between it and the PUP. Since I now know where the noise is emanating from, and given that I play the instrument amped at all times without the noise, I am not in any rush to attempt the mod.

Thank you all for your assistance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

Since you have all been so helpful, I thought that you might appreciate a followup on my L5.

The distorted tone problem, that was previously described, has been resolved by a combination of plastic tubing substitution for the neck PUP springs, and lock washer installation beneath a new 3-way selector switch. The TOM was replaced as well, due to stretching beyond the required radius of 12 degrees, but it was not deemed to be contributory to the distortion. All is well.

Thanks again.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello,

I have a 25 year old—like new condition—L5 that has recently developed an issue manifested by distorted tone when playing chords, or the "D" string above the 7th fret. And several days ago I purchased a brand new Tal Farlow with the exact same defect. The major source of distortion appears to be the "D" in both instances. And, in both guitars the distortion is evident, for the most part, when played acoustically as opposed to amplified. Both guitars have made a visit to the local Gibson service center, and in the case of the L5, frets have been leveled, all wires secured, etc, but the distortion persists. Yesterday, after reading several online posts, I began to investigate—in the case of the Tal Farlow, since the L5 is still with the service center—the possibility that the PUPs may be the source. My finding? Exerting, with the help of another, downward pressure on the pick-guard edge of the neck PUP significantly reduces the distortion. At this point, it is not clear as to whether the noise is coming from the PUP shell, its nearness to the pick-guard, the mounting point of the PUP to the body (top) or the PUP's mounting springs.

 

I did come across an older post with what appeared to be a similar issue, and would be interested to hear about whatever ultimate solution the poster arrived at. Any new input would be appreciated.

 

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. I have had the same problem with my L5 and my Tal Farlow. In fact I've had the problem with an L5 CES and an L5 CT.

 

Fortunartely I have access to an expert luthier. He initially did similar things to what was suggested above but in every case in my view it ended up being the bridge. I actually replaced the abr bridges with ebony bridges on my three guitars. No more buzz and personally I believe the tone has improved. My luthier hand made the ebony bridges and they are somewhat bigger than normal. I don't really know whether the extra mass improves the tone but I like the tone. And these are the guitars I gig with so I am careful and conservative.

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Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. I have had the same problem with my L5 and my Tal Farlow. In fact I've had the problem with an L5 CES and an L5 CT.

 

Fortunartely I have access to an expert luthier. He initially did similar things to what was suggested above but in every case in my view it ended up being the bridge. I actually replaced the abr bridges with ebony bridges on my three guitars. No more buzz and personally I believe the tone has improved. My luthier hand made the ebony bridges and they are somewhat bigger than normal. I don't really know whether the extra mass improves the tone but I like the tone. And these are the guitars I gig with so I am careful and conservative.

 

Hello,

Interesting solution that I will keep in mind.

My 25 yr old L5 CES has shown a significant reduction in distortion/buzz following the luthier's replacement of the neck PUP springs with neoprene tubing. But there remains a certain small percentage of the original issue. I plan to have the bridge PUP springs removed and replaced with the same tubing to see if it accomplishes complete resolution. The ABR was recently replaced–when the neck PUP springs were replaced—with a brand new ABR and that appeared to have no influence on the noise. If the neck bridge spring replacement proves unsuccessful in achieving resolution I will consider a wood bridge as the next step. I have 2 other L5's—a 2013 Wes Mo and and brand new L5 CES— and fortunately,neither exhibit any noise/buzz/rattle ... so far. But my new Tal Farlow has the same issue, and I found that tightening the neck PUP screws has reduced the noise significantly, which leads me to believe that it too has the spring issue.

Thank you for your input.

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Hello again,

 

In regards to the ebony bridge replacement for the L5 CES, I wonder if an ebony bridge designed and supplied with a Heritage Golden Eagle would fit on the L5 CES, as I believe that it is the same radius?

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From the original question, I HIGHLY doubt that ABR is the problem described, but I am a proponent of wooden bridges on high-end archtops. I have either hand-carved myself (L-5), or had CNC machined (L-7), custom bridges for my "working" archtops.

 

Hi Ron. I can't help you with the bridge you mentioned but I thought that you might find my replacement bridge of interest.

 

From the photo above, I can't believe the "G" string comes close to proper intonation, especially with this differential between the "B" and "G" saddles. This seems to be the standard orientation of wooden bridges (Gibson or aftermarket), but would not intonate properly on ANY guitar I own, hollow-body or solid. This is why I made, or had made, wooden bridges for my L-5 and L-7, based on the differentials of the saddle locations from a perfectly adjusted ABR.

 

Here's a photo of how the saddles lined up on the hand-carved ebony bridge for my L-5. Perfect intonation.

5923888423_2325937654_o.jpg

 

My L-7 rosewood bridge carve was very similar. It's my opinion that a high-end archtop not only NEEDS an individually engineered and custom carved bridge for proper intonation, it also DESERVES one.

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A8B59195-D91B-45B9-9B82-D41AF4919FB7_zpstbv3kz9d.jpg

 

Another view

 

Hi alan,

Thank you for the photo.

It appears that Sadowsky makes a compensated ebony bridge for arch tops with 12" radius, but whether it would be appropriate for the L5 remains an unknown.

Thank you again for the photo.

Ron

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From the original question, I HIGHLY doubt that ABR is the problem described, but I am a proponent of wooden bridges on high-end archtops. I have either hand-carved myself (L-5), or had CNC machined (L-7), custom bridges for my "working" archtops.

 

 

 

From the photo above, I can't believe the "G" string comes close to proper intonation, especially with this differential between the "B" and "G" saddles. This seems to be the standard orientation of wooden bridges (Gibson or aftermarket), but would not intonate properly on ANY guitar I own, hollow-body or solid. This is why I made, or had made, wooden bridges for my L-5 and L-7, based on the differentials of the saddle locations from a perfectly adjusted ABR.

 

Here's a photo of how the saddles lined up on the hand-carved ebony bridge for my L-5. Perfect intonation.

5923888423_2325937654_o.jpg

 

My L-7 rosewood bridge carve was very similar. It's my opinion that a high-end archtop not only NEEDS an individually engineered and custom carved bridge for proper intonation, it also DESERVES one.

 

Hi Larry.

 

With all due respect, I actually play the guitar and the intonation on the G string is good and not noticably different to the other strings. In fact I gigged with it for 3 hours yesterday and all good. I can say that I have recently had intonation problems which required a new bridge but that was on a PRS Custom 22 and it was the G string.

 

Before I changed the bridge on the Cherry L5 CT, there was buzzing and overtones that I couldn't live with. In every case, prior to changing a bridge on any of the guitars I own, I get the pickups looked at, the screws on the tail piece tightened, examine the the pick guard mountings, check the toggle switch and even the pots. I have actually had problems in each of these areas on guitars that I've owned as I have found buzzing and rattling to be a somewhat common problem . On a number of my guitars I altered some of these things but after examining all of these variables and getting them right, in a few cases I did still feel the need to replace the bridge. Adding the ebony bridge has enhanced the distinctiveness of the guitar's tone, which I like.

 

Tbh I'm really fussy about my guitars as I've been playing for a long time and I play a lot. I own six L5's, 4 of which now have ebony bridges. These guitars are the guitars I gig with so I'm pretty concerned about their playability and their tone. I also have a super 400 CT which still has its abr and I own a Johnny Smith which has an ebony bridge. I also have a few 175's which I've also put ebony bridges on.

 

However it's a never ending journey to obtain the elusive tone and I always remain open to advice and I will alter guitars until I get them to suit me.

 

In relation to the intonation question I see that you're using La Bella's. I just couldnt get them to work for me and I'm using Thomastik George Benson flatwounds with a 13 on the first and a 17 on the second string.

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