The Never Ending Struggle with the G String

[Greg1967]

I’m trying to wrap my head around the intonation process. I have a 2013 SG and the saddle on the G is about as far back as it can go. And it is still sharp or maybe a couple of cents off. And of course if I move the saddle forward then it will increase the sharpness of the string.

 

The bridge side with the high strings is about as low it can go while the bridge on the low side is pretty good as far as the action that I am looking for on the E, A and D strings.

 

If I raise the bridge on the high strings am I increasing or decreasing the distance from the 12th fret to the saddle? And will lowering the bridge on the low side also help?

 

I don’t want to tear into the bridge and flip the saddle if at all possible.

 

Any recommendations? Or can someone recommend a different bridge with a wider length of adjustment for the saddles?

[SGgypsyboy]

What type of bridge is this SG equipped with? A Nashville or an ABR-1?

[Greg1967]

What type of bridge is this SG equipped with? A Nashville or an ABR-1?

 

 

Sorry. Nashville.

 

I was looking at a Gotoh Nashville bridge. It has a little bit more back and forth adjustability at the saddles.

[LesWeasel]

How does the harmonic at the 12th fret look? If it's in tune, then the sharpness is caused by pressing the string down toward the fretboard.

[rct]

Intonate with fretted notes, not harmonics.

 

rct

[LesWeasel]

Intonate with fretted notes, not harmonics.

 

rct

Yes. I know. But if the harmonic is good then the string length is good. The sharpness is then probably caused by string height (bridge or nut). The note goes sharp because of excessive string deflection.

[rct]

Yes. I know. But if the harmonic is good then the string length is good. The sharpness is then probably caused by string height (bridge or nut). The note goes sharp because of excessive string deflection.

 

If the note is corrrect, the intonation is correct. The harmonic should not ever be a part of intonating a guitar. No matter what the harmonic does, if you can't fret the note correctly at the 12th or 17th or any other, the saddle is still in the wrong place, we don't play with harmonnics we play with fretted notes.

 

rct

[LesWeasel]

If the note is corrrect, the intonation is correct. The harmonic should not ever be a part of intonating a guitar. No matter what the harmonic does, if you can't fret the note correctly at the 12th or 17th or any other, the saddle is still in the wrong place, we don't play with harmonnics we play with fretted notes.

 

rct

The 12th fret harmonic will always be the same as the open string (only up an octave). It's where that harmonic is located that can indicate if the string length is too short or too long. I can easily fret a note sharp with very little trouble on a properly intonated guitar. I don't beleive you can intonate a guitar with an extremely high action - the stretch to the fret board will cause the note to go sharp.

Also ... I play harmonics all the time. :)

[rct]

The 12th fret harmonic will always be the same as the open string (only up an octave). It's where that harmonic is located that can indicate if the string length is too short or too long. I can easily fret a note sharp with very little trouble on a properly intonated guitar. I don't beleive you can intonate a guitar with an extremely high action - the stretch to the fret board will cause the note to go sharp.

Also ... I play harmonics all the time. :)

 

So you can see where a harmonic is located?

 

I too can easily fret a note sharp, and if the poster appeared to be pretty new at all this and was getting wonky t00ner thingies I'd agree. But poster seems to have some idea and is trying in vain to not flip his saddle, which he is going to have to do.

 

I don't beleive you can intonate a guitar with an extremely high action - the stretch to the fret board will cause the note to go sharp.

 

If you fret the note and set the saddle where the open string and the fretted note are the same, or the 5th and 17th, or whatever you choose, it is intonated correctly, no matter how high the string is. I said it back there man, do not intonate using harmonics and you won't have that problem.

 

rct

[Greg1967]

How does the harmonic at the 12th fret look? If it's in tune, then the sharpness is caused by pressing the string down toward the fretboard.

 

 

Yes. I play the open string (with a finger) and then play the 12th fret harmonically. All is fine up to that point. I then press down on the string at the 12th fret where I would typically press if I were playing and use that as a basis for intonating. I have a Les Paul and another SG. I can intonate those just fine. So I'm up on the tune-o-matic bridge intonation procedure. Just thinking I'm not adjusting the height correctly. Sorry I turned this into a debate on harmonics.

[capmaster]

Flip the saddle.

 

On all of my guitars with Nashville and ABR-1 bridges the saddles of G3rd strings are flipped, and they still are pretty close to the end on most of them. Only a small raise of action would make compensation impossible.

 

Some guitars call for flipped E6th or B2nd saddles, too.

[LesWeasel]

So you can see where a harmonic is located?

 

I too can easily fret a note sharp, and if the poster appeared to be pretty new at all this and was getting wonky t00ner thingies I'd agree. But poster seems to have some idea and is trying in vain to not flip his saddle, which he is going to have to do.

 

 

 

If you fret the note and set the saddle where the open string and the fretted note are the same, or the 5th and 17th, or whatever you choose, it is intonated correctly, no matter how high the string is. I said it back there man, do not intonate using harmonics and you won't have that problem.

 

rct

Yes, if I play a good clean harmonic, I can see if it's over the fret wire or not.

If the the open string and fretted note at the 12th are the same, you are intonated at the 12th. That doesn't mean it's intonated anywhere else on the fretboard and it doesn't mean the string length is set correctly. If the fretted 12th note is sharp because of excessive string stretch caused by high action and but seems to be in tune with the open string, the guitar will play out of tune other places on the fretboard. It only appears that it's properly intonated - it's based an a sharp note caused by stretching.

And i never said to use harmonics to intonate.

[Greg1967]

Flip the saddle.

 

On all of my guitars with Nashville and ABR-1 bridges the saddles of G3rd strings are flipped, and they still are pretty close to the end on most of them. Only a small raise of action would make compensation impossible.

 

Some guitars call for flipped E6th or B2nd saddles, too.

 

So will this cause any issues since the saddles are already notched for their respective string gauge?

[L5Larry]

... If you fret the note and set the saddle where the open string and the fretted note are the same,... I said it back there man, do not intonate using harmonics and you won't have that problem.

 

OK, you're both pretty, but here's a little scientific mathematics.

 

The open string and the 12th fret harmonic are always PERFECT octaves of each other, this can not vary. What ever frequency your open string rings to will be multiplied by striking a harmonic anywhere close to the 12th fret. You can not strike a sharp or flat harmonic relative to the open string, the 12th fret harmonic is ALWAYS the exact same note as the open string...PERIOD.

 

Therefore, comparing the fretted 12th note to the open string OR 12th fret harmonic will yield exactly the same result. Most people prefer to use the harmonic because the ping of the harmonic is more of a "pure" tone, and contains less overtones than the open string, making it easier to be interpreted by an electronic tuner.

 

 

 

OK, back to the OP:

The top of your saddle is sloped one way or another, creating the "fulcrum". Depending on which way it faces, this gives you more adjustment range. It's much easier to reverse a saddle on an ABR-1, but it can be done on a Nashville. If your "G" string saddle is already sloping toward the neck, disregard the previous statement.

 

You also say that your intonation is "maybe a couple cents off". Two-hundredths of a semi-tone is pretty darn close. Let your ear be your guide and don't get frazzled by a digital tuner readout. In many cases intonation being pretty close IS close enough.

[rct]

Therefore, comparing the fretted 12th note to the open string OR 12th fret harmonic will yield exactly the same result. Most people prefer to use the harmonic because the ping of the harmonic is more of a "pure" tone, and contains less overtones than the open string, making it easier to be interpreted by an electronic tuner.

 

The harmonic starts and stays sharp a long time. Long enough that using a strobe you can match up the far right, high frequencies that we don't hear so good quite nicely, and end up with a poorly intonated string down in the freqs we do hear good. I was taught in a shop, at a very young age, that I would not set intonation using harmonics for that reason.

 

I'm also going out on a limb and say that if any of you can look at the string and see exactly where the meat of yer finger stopped the string and created the harmonic, why do you need a tuner?

 

Fret the string, make the length of the string be exactly half on each side of your fretted note.

 

To put another way, I will harmonic at the 12th, your eyes will tell you it's in tune, I'll fret and it won't be. The fretted note matters.

 

I thought everybody knew this stuff?

 

rct

[L5Larry]

... I will harmonic at the 12th, your eyes will tell you it's in tune, I'll fret and it won't be. The fretted note matters.

 

I thought everybody knew this stuff?

 

What are you rambling about? I think you've misread a few posts in this discussion.

[capmaster]

The harmonic starts and stays sharp a long time. ...

 

rct

No.

[capmaster]

So will this cause any issues since the saddles are already notched for their respective string gauge?

I think the saddles are grooved all the same in their center, so the string run will depend a little on compensation only, the longer, the closer to the treble side due to the slanted bridge.

 

To clarify that, I wouldn't flip the bridge but the respective saddle only. The adjustment screw is a bit tricky to unlock. Some weeks ago I posted a comprehensive description into a related topic - I'll try to find it.

[stein]

Fun argument.

 

On the subject of saddle travel and not having enough room: if it's all the way back and still will not intonate, then the saddle has to be flipped to GIVE it enough room. Simple as that. OR...live with it being a bit off.

 

On the subject of pressing down on the string and causing it to go sharp: if it does that, YOU ARE NOT INTONATED!!! You can't HAVE a guitar that is PROPERLY intonated if it doesn't play the note in tune.

 

RCT thought everybody knew that? I did.

 

So then the question comes up: if you can play a guitar that is "properly intonated" and it's sharp because you are pressing down on the frets, how the heck did you intonate it?

 

Which is where, the suggestion of harmonics came into it as being really, not making any sense. What the harmonic says in this context tells a guy nothing. except to say, well, nothing. Just maybe what the open note (nut) should read on the tuner. Which it usually does. But if it doesn't (and sometimes it doesn't), it just means again, the harmonic is useless.

 

All elementary, but might add, to ME what the open note says against the fretted 12th fret is a ballpark anyway. To ME, it's intonated when ALL the frets play the note in tune, or they are all as close as they can be. If the nut is off...you get it.

 

Moral: if it doesn't play in tune, or read in tune, and it doesn't tune on all the frets being played, it isn't intonated properly. If you want to intonate it properly, ignore the harmonics, and adjust the saddles to the notes as they are played. Then when you play it, they will be in tune.

[LesWeasel]

This is really simple and I’ll try one last time:

With a reasonable action, if the string is too long for the guitar’s scale, it will play flat on the 12th. You need to move the saddle toward the nut.

If the action is high, you can stretch the sting when fretting at the 12th enough to make it go sharp and it could sound in tune. You’ll think all is well, but the guitar will play out of tune elsewhere on the neck because the string is still too long for the scale. It only sounds right because you’ve bent the string sharp.

And yes, I can easily tell if my finger placement is too far off one way or the other when I play a clean sounding harmonic. Perhaps others can’t – not my fault and that doesn’t mean I can’t do it.

Again, I never said you should use harmonics to set intonation. But I will say that if you play a good clean harmonic and your finger is somewhere between the 12th and 13th fret, I don't care what it sounds like fretted - the string length is wrong.

[BigKahune]

.... if you play a good clean harmonic and your finger is somewhere between the 12th and 13th fret, I don't care what it sounds like fretted - the string length is wrong.

 

So what. The string length is adjustable at the saddles to compensate for errors in fretted pitch. On a properly intonated guitar the string lengths are rarely correct. For that matter the harmonic points aren't always right on the frets even on strings the are properly intonated and also happen to be scale length.

 

 

.

[rct]

So what. The string length is adjustable at the saddles to compensate for errors in fretted pitch. On a properly intonated guitar the string lengths are rarely correct. For that matter the harmonic points aren't always right on the frets even on strings the are properly intonated and also happen to be scale length.

 

Guitars with the neck pickup in the wrong spot can't hear the 12th fret. Early big jazz boxes with only one pickup often could not hear the 5th/12th. Charlie Christian musta sucked, couldn't intonate to save his life, according to this thread.

 

rct

[LesWeasel]

So what. The string length is adjustable at the saddles to compensate for errors in fretted pitch. On a properly intonated guitar the string lengths are rarely correct. For that matter the harmonic points aren't always right on the frets even on strings the are properly intonated and also happen to be scale length.

 

 

.

What? The whole purpose of moving the saddle back and forth while intonating is to set the correct string length.

[stein]

This is really simple and I’ll try one last time:

With a reasonable action, if the string is too long for the guitar’s scale, it will play flat on the 12th. You need to move the saddle toward the nut.

If the action is high, you can stretch the sting when fretting at the 12th enough to make it go sharp and it could sound in tune. You’ll think all is well, but the guitar will play out of tune elsewhere on the neck because the string is still too long for the scale. It only sounds right because you’ve bent the string sharp.

And yes, I can easily tell if my finger placement is too far off one way or the other when I play a clean sounding harmonic. Perhaps others can’t – not my fault and that doesn’t mean I can’t do it.

Again, I never said you should use harmonics to set intonation. But I will say that if you play a good clean harmonic and your finger is somewhere between the 12th and 13th fret, I don't care what it sounds like fretted - the string length is wrong.

 

 

So what. The string length is adjustable at the saddles to compensate for errors in fretted pitch. On a properly intonated guitar the string lengths are rarely correct. For that matter the harmonic points aren't always right on the frets even on strings the are properly intonated and also happen to be scale length.

 

 

.

Indeed, notice that on a PROPERLY intonated guitar, the saddles are NOT in a place that is perfectly lined up, but rather staggered. The saddles are not at the same length.

 

Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's why we intonate according to SOUNDING in tune, and not with a tape measure. So if the saddles end up in a place that isn't exactly the same length, doesn't it stand to reason the harmonic isn't always right over the fret? Does it matter either way?

 

However, there ARE reasons why they aren't the same length when properly "in tune": one is diameter of the string, and the other is indeed stretching or pressure to fret the note. It causes the LENGTH to have to be changed to compensate for they fact it would not be in tune. Thus, the adjustable bridge saddles.

[stein]

 

With a reasonable action, if the string is too long for the guitar’s scale, it will play flat on the 12th. You need to move the saddle toward the nut.

If the action is high, you can stretch the sting when fretting at the 12th enough to make it go sharp and it could sound in tune. You’ll think all is well, but the guitar will play out of tune elsewhere on the neck because the string is still too long for the scale. It only sounds right because you’ve bent the string sharp.

 

In your example here, the sound of the "stretched" string is the correct one. It doesn't sound out of place elsewhere on the neck because those notes at the other frets are stretched as well. The 13th fret is stretched a little more, the 14th a little more...going back, the 11th stretched a little less, the 10th a little less than that..so on and so forth.

 

However...it's a little more complicated than that. But in the spirit of keeping it simple, when intonating a guitar to make it in tune, you ARE compensating for differences to make the guitar in tune, not so much getting a proper length.