The Never Ending Struggle with the G String

[LesWeasel]

Indeed, notice that on a PROPERLY intonated guitar, the saddles are NOT in a place that is perfectly lined up, but rather staggered. The saddles are not at the same length.

 

Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's why we intonate according to SOUNDING in tune, and not with a tape measure. So if the saddles end up in a place that isn't exactly the same length, doesn't it stand to reason the harmonic isn't always right over the fret? Does it matter either way?

 

However, there ARE reasons why they aren't the same length when properly "in tune": one is diameter of the string, and the other is indeed stretching or pressure to fret the note. It causes the LENGTH to have to be changed to compensate for they fact it would not be in tune. Thus, the adjustable bridge saddles.

The saddles don't line up because, due to construction, the vibrating portion of different strings is different. There's string length measured from front of nut to top of saddle and then there's the length of the string that actually vibrates to create sound. Those two measurements are not always, if ever, the same and differ from string to string. That's way scale is determined by doubling the distance from the front of the nut to the top of the 12th fret and not by any strings length. The amount of string that does not vibrate is divided into two portions, one at each end. So the midpoint, 12th harmonic, would still be over the 12th fret when intonated correctly.

[LesWeasel]

In your example here, the sound of the "stretched" string is the correct one. It doesn't sound out of place elsewhere on the neck because those notes at the other frets are stretched as well. The 13th fret is stretched a little more, the 14th a little more...going back, the 11th stretched a little less, the 10th a little less than that..so on and so forth.

 

However...it's a little more complicated than that. But in the spirit of keeping it simple, when intonating a guitar to make it in tune, you ARE compensating for differences to make the guitar in tune, not so much getting a proper length.

I've seen many guitars that, do to nut slots that are too high, will play well in the middle of the neck but are extremely sharp at the first 5 frets or so. The strings are stretched more the closer to the nut you get.

[rct]

The saddles don't line up because, due to construction, the vibrating portion of different strings is different. There's string length measured from front of nut to top of saddle and then there's the length of the string that actually vibrates to create sound. Those two measurements are not always, if ever, the same and differ from string to string. That's way scale is determined by doubling the distance from the front of the nut to the top of the 12th fret and not by any strings length. The amount of string that does not vibrate is divided into two portions, one at each end. So the midpoint, 12th harmonic, would still be over the 12th fret when intonated correctly.

 

YaY! All good. But humans in general, not you, can't see that node, so we intonate using the fretted note, placing it in the center with equal amounts on each side of it. Most, many, lots maybe, don't use harmonics when intonating. Or, maybe there are just a few of us left that still don't do that because of strobes of yore.

 

Your paragraph assumes "front of nut to top of saddle". Sometimes the string sits too close to the neck or too close to the machines and the nut needs filling and recutting to compensate for a saddle that won't go any further in either direction, like the original post. So a string that needs more sharp would have the nut filled and re-cut, placing the point where the string stops closer to the first fret, shorter, therefore sharper, and hopefully enough saddle movement to get it exactly right.

 

Did that make sense?

 

rct

[BigKahune]

... The whole purpose of moving the saddle back and forth while intonating is to set the correct string length.

 

... if you play a good clean harmonic and your finger is somewhere between the 12th and 13th fret, I don't care what it sounds like fretted - the string length is wrong. ...

 

Your explanations seem to be connecting the correct string length to the position of the harmonic. The purpose of intonation is to make the fretted notes played higher up the fretboard sound in tune. For this purpose, the correct string length makes the pitch of the fretted note at the 12th fret the same as the pitch of the open string note. This intonated length can be set regardless of where 12th fret harmonic is located. BTW, the open string note and it's 12th fret harmonic are always the same pitch.

 

 

.

[LesWeasel]

YaY! All good. But humans in general, not you, can't see that node, so we intonate using the fretted note, placing it in the center with equal amounts on each side of it. Most, many, lots maybe, don't use harmonics when intonating. Or, maybe there are just a few of us left that still don't do that because of strobes of yore.

 

rct

Just a point of clarification:

As I have said before - I do not use harmonics to intonate. I've never said you should.

[LesWeasel]

Your explanations seem to be connecting the correct string length to the position of the harmonic. The purpose of intonation is to make the fretted notes played higher up the fretboard sound in tune. For this purpose, the correct string length makes the pitch of the fretted note at the 12th fret the same as the pitch of the open string note. This intonated length can be set regardless of where 12th fret harmonic is located. BTW, the open string note and it's 12th fret harmonic are always the same pitch.

 

 

.

Yes, as I stated before, the 12th fret harmonic will always match the open string, just an octave up. It's how a vibrating string works.

When you fret at the 12th, the string runs from the saddle to the top of the 12th fret. So, in order for the fretted note to sound an octave above the open string the top of the 12th fret needs to be in the same place relative to the total string length as the harmonic would be on the open string. If, for example, the harmonic appears over the 13th fret, nothing you can do will make the fretted 12th an octave above open.

[rct]

Just a point of clarification:

As I have said before - I do not use harmonics to intonate. I've never said you should.

 

Ok, then a point of clarification, and why I am even in this dang thread:

 

Yes. I know. But if the harmonic is good then the string length is good. The sharpness is then probably caused by string height (bridge or nut). The note goes sharp because of excessive string deflection.

 

"But if the harmonic is good then the string length is good."

 

If the string length is good the fretted 12th is good. If the fretted 12th is not good the string length is not good. I don't care what the harmonic is doing.

 

When you set up a guitar and the harmonic is good but the fretted 12th is sharp do you stop and say well, the harmonic is good so I'm done? Or do you move the saddle accordingly?

 

This is where you are losing people that set up guitars and work on them and have for a long time. The harmonic means absolutely nothing to intonation. It's like telling a newb to set their radio to Power 95 to get better mileage, it just has nothing to do with it.

 

rct

[stein]

I've seen many guitars that, do to nut slots that are too high, will play well in the middle of the neck but are extremely sharp at the first 5 frets or so. The strings are stretched more the closer to the nut you get.

Yup. This is true.

 

And another reason to use fretted notes and all of them along the neck and intonate accordingly.

[stein]

Just a point of clarification:

As I have said before - I do not use harmonics to intonate. I've never said you should.

Well, kinda think you did.

 

If you are just learning this, might at least give us a little credit. Being wrong and learning stuff is a good thing. I learn stuff here too, as well as lots of other places.

[stein]

Yes, as I stated before, the 12th fret harmonic will always match the open string, just an octave up. It's how a vibrating string works.

When you fret at the 12th, the string runs from the saddle to the top of the 12th fret. So, in order for the fretted note to sound an octave above the open string the top of the 12th fret needs to be in the same place relative to the total string length as the harmonic would be on the open string. If, for example, the harmonic appears over the 13th fret, nothing you can do will make the fretted 12th an octave above open.

So again then, why even bring up the harmonic? what does it have to do with anything?

 

If you go about intonating the "normal" way, one would never know or care where the harmonic ends up on a ruler or how close to the 12th fret it is.

[LesWeasel]

Well, kinda think you did.

 

If you are just learning this, might at least give us a little credit. Being wrong and learning stuff is a good thing. I learn stuff here too, as well as lots of other places.

I'm a far cry from "just learning".

What I was saying is that if the harmonic is positioned pretty well over the 12th fret (which I guess some have trouble determining)and you are still fretting sharp, it could very well be to the action (at the saddle or nut) being too high and the string being stretched sharp.

[LesWeasel]

Ok, then a point of clarification, and why I am even in this dang thread:

 

 

 

"But if the harmonic is good then the string length is good."

 

If the string length is good the fretted 12th is good. If the fretted 12th is not good the string length is not good. I don't care what the harmonic is doing.

 

When you set up a guitar and the harmonic is good but the fretted 12th is sharp do you stop and say well, the harmonic is good so I'm done? Or do you move the saddle accordingly?

 

This is where you are losing people that set up guitars and work on them and have for a long time. The harmonic means absolutely nothing to intonation. It's like telling a newb to set their radio to Power 95 to get better mileage, it just has nothing to do with it.

 

rct

The string length may be correct for the given scale, but if the action in an inch above the fretboard you will fret sharp. The harmonic will, however, be positioned over the 12th fret telling you the trouble is not at the saddle. You don't use the harmonic to set intonation but it is tool for helping determining a problem.

[stein]

The string length may be correct for the given scale, but if the action in an inch above the fretboard you will fret sharp. The harmonic will, however, be positioned over the 12th fret telling you the trouble is not at the saddle. You don't use the harmonic to set intonation but it is tool for helping determining a problem.

Well, no it isn't. Anyone having trouble intonating or figuring out why (which doesn't apply here...the OP knew why) could not determine anything by hitting the harmonic.

[stein]

OK...lets have a little lesson in harmonics, shall we? Since we can't seem to get away from that part.

 

When you hit the harmonic, it has as much to do with technique and practice as it does where exactly you hit it. WHERE exactly you hit it within a 1/2 inch or so will still produce the same note, so you don't have to be exactly over the spot.

 

Some guys are so light a touch and so good they don't need to be right over the spot to make a good, clean note. Some might hit right at the right spot, and half the time come up with a good note, and half the time not get anything. That becomes more apparent when hitting harmonics at other places, such as the 5th and 7th frets.

 

There is a point here: doesn't matter where a guy hits it, the harmonic will make the same note according to it's position. And you can't really tell how close you hit it by determining pitch, OR how well the note rang out, because again, it could have been good technique.

 

On a different subject, but still related to tuning, there are differences between overtones and vibrations that cause the harmonic to be potentially different than the open note, AND/OR cause a tuner to read it differently than what happens when a note is fretted in actual practice. But that's again, a whole different thing, but also relates to tuning and intonating if you REALLY want to tune and intonate a guitar better or just get in the ballpark.

[Greg1967]

Damn. I opened up a can of worms here.

 

Might as well segue into another heated debate.

 

Was there a person on the grassy knoll? And did he or she tune harmonically or with open strings?

[rct]

Damn. I opened up a can of worms here.

 

Might as well segue into another heated debate.

 

Was there a person on the grassy knoll? And did he or she tune harmonically or with open strings?

 

You asked a reasonable question, that has reasonable answers from reasonable people. I got in this because the use of harmonics as part of your intonation problems was brought up, whether that guy likes it or not. New people are reading these threads and they get wrong or misleading information.

 

For the intonation process you are having trouble with: You could turn the saddle around if it will give you a tad room to move it more. If not you'll need to get that nut slot filled and re-cut such that the string stops farther back. It isn't unusual and it isn't a crisis at all.

 

If the open and fretted 12 match on yer tuner, then fretted 5 and fretted 17 match, no matter how high your strings are, you are done. Harmonics are not part of it. Not at all. Not now, not ever.

 

rct

[pippy]

So what you are saying is I should forget about using the harmonic at the 12th fret to set my intonation and use the harmonics at the 5th and 17th frets instead?

Yes?

 

Pip.

[rct]

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

 

You people should use the metric harmonic.

 

rct

[pippy]

You people should use the metric harmonica...

Is that the make Dylan uses?

 

Pip.

[badbluesplayer]

Harmonicas have nothing to do with it!

[Greg1967]

You asked a reasonable question, that has reasonable answers from reasonable people. I got in this because the use of harmonics as part of your intonation problems was brought up, whether that guy likes it or not. New people are reading these threads and they get wrong or misleading information.

 

For the intonation process you are having trouble with: You could turn the saddle around if it will give you a tad room to move it more. If not you'll need to get that nut slot filled and re-cut such that the string stops farther back. It isn't unusual and it isn't a crisis at all.

 

If the open and fretted 12 match on yer tuner, then fretted 5 and fretted 17 match, no matter how high your strings are, you are done. Harmonics are not part of it. Not at all. Not now, not ever.

 

rct

 

 

For the record, I did something I usually don't do. I didn't use harmonics on the 12th fret when I intonated my Strat and my Les Paul a couple of nights ago just to see what would happen (haven't done the SG yet). The Strat and the LP are spot on. And I believe it's because I simply plucked the open string and then fretted the 12th. As opposed to fretting the 12th harmonically and then pressed down to see if it needs adjusted.

 

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

[BigKahune]

For the record, I did something I usually don't do. I didn't use harmonics on the 12th fret when I intonated my Strat and my Les Paul a couple of nights ago just to see what would happen (haven't done the SG yet). The Strat and the LP are spot on. And I believe it's because I simply plucked the open string and then fretted the 12th. As opposed to fretting the 12th harmonically and then pressed down to see if it needs adjusted.

 

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

 

Sorry your thread got a bit side tracked, but I agree with RCT - inexperienced people are reading these threads and they might get wrong or misleading information.

 

Glad this worked out for you without getting into the bridge and saddle flipping. . . B)

 

 

.

[pippy]

Hmm...yup. Mea Culpa and I apologise for the derail.

 

But you were obviously smart enough to know what's what and I, too, am glad you're getting it sorted out.

 

Pip.

[stein]

Harmonicas have nothing to do with it!

Not only that, they are all in the wrong key.

 

Finding the right one takes forever if you don't know what you are doing.

 

But I understand, you can flip them too and be in tune?

[Greg1967]

And using the method that doesn't involve harmonics paid off in regards to my SG. Although the saddle is back pretty far. It's not as far as it was. And the intonation is spot on.